X3R seemed to be heading towards becoming a RPG, scripts built on this significantly with factions to join, more dialog, and generally fleshing out the game world. X3TC turned the other way, rather sharply. Now it sounds like this is coming back around, with an expanded character mode beyond EVA, face to face character interaction, dialog beyond mission specific stuff, building a relationship with crew members, dialog to control NPC behavior with some precision, and probably more to come...
Will this be a RPG? Or, could it evolve into one over time?
Will the plot line be non-linear or have multiple endings?
Any PC-NPC relationship building or dynamics?
Any factions to join? (e.g. Cycrow's X3R BBS guild scripts)
Is there a character system beyond the current reputation titles and stat ranks?
Any plans for character mode small arms combat?
Any character mode gear?
If not, how flexible are the underlying systems to implement some of this stuff in mods?
"Character mode" being a generalization for walking around, as opposed to "vehicle mode" for flight or "command mode" for any RTS gameplay aspects.
RPG aspects?
Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum
RPG aspects?
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -Plato
It already is
Everything you stated about what we know so far about Rebirth and the fact that you can upgrade your main ship defines this as an RPG. You do not need to develop your character specifically for a game to be an RPG. As a matter of fact, with the features they have listed I would say this is more RPG than space sim, more so than any other X game at least.
-
EmperorJon
- Posts: 9378
- Joined: Mon, 29. Dec 08, 20:58
I do not believe Bernd will ever allow X to become a full RPG, but X rebirth has definitely adding a few RPG features to the game that would fit with the X universe gameplay, which is a good move in my opinion.
A few games down the line you may have more RPG like features for special stations. But i really do not believe we are seeing a clear move towards RPGS here, just the borrowing of some features X needs.
A few games down the line you may have more RPG like features for special stations. But i really do not believe we are seeing a clear move towards RPGS here, just the borrowing of some features X needs.
This signature has been stolen by the well known Teladi Signature Thief X Siggy.
Aye, I don't see it turning into a Mass Effect hybrid, but at the same time X blazed its own trail among space sims, maybe they can do the same within a RPG context, and use the modding community as a "pathfinder" via evolutionary trial and error. So I guess I asked the wrong questions, what "will be" is a curiosity inviting speculation, what "could be" engages the imagination inviting brainstorming, which in turn leads to what "need be" to realize the best of those ideas. From that we can probe for more specific information, make requests, foster interest in such RPG aspects, and so worth.
New questions and some examples to get started...
What sort of RPG aspects could have worked well in X3 (R or TC) if not for game engine/data limitations? (scope)
I think the most obvious is dialog, some X3-R scripts attempted this with mixed to poor results, and interest dropped off in TC due to the limitations. I'd imagine something along the lines of chatting with all unique plot characters, other captains at a trade dock (e.g. Freelancer style bar), race/faction members, and hirelings like Lucike's script added crew members. In X3 the limitation wasn't only a lack of a dialog system, but, and more to the point, a lack of underlying logic to make those chats worthwhile. For example, a dynamically generated character sheet system, including a personal history, could be used to reveal information about the sectors the NPC visits regularly as a part of their role, recent activity in the nearest of those sectors, and particular details on their home sector including history/stories. That being a somewhat generic dialog tree for use by most characters, driven by templates plus a mix of logged and real time universe data. All of this creates a facade, the NPC might have just spawned, never having visited the sectors they apparently know about. A more advanced system could use a convoluted chatter bot of sorts fed by a robust database of available NPC knowledge partially unique to any particular game (differing with each new game).
What sort of new-to-X RPG aspects could be applied to Rebirth based on what is known? (point)
Player party, classic RPG staple, worked well enough with Mass Effect 2 to show how it could work even better in Rebirth -but- without reaching the same game dominating full RPG depth of ME1, DA1, KOTOR1-2, NWN1-2, BG, etc. Probably start with a ship crew of special NPC's with robust character design, build the RPG style relationships via sending them through hell together, while making time for plenty of dialog, then graduate them to captains of the player's fleet as it grows. With improved AI, basic character system, and an overly complicated special jobs system, these ship captains could have all sorts of special behaviors unavailable to normal hirelings. On an individual level they could have personal missions at various stages of their "development" from crew member to captain, a second set of personal history derived semi-dynamic missions/encounters, a third set of semi-spontaneous semi-dynamic missions/encounters which emerge as they travel around the universe on fleet duties as a benefit to using these NPC's over generic hirelings, more in-depth reactions to given situations using mission wrappers, and more... On a fleet level they could spread out to tackle larger semi-dynamic plot missions/events, with the traditional RPG "dramatic complications".
A variation on the same concept could be applied to NPC factions, like TC corporations and/or the BBS based guild scripts created for X3-R, but expanded to semi-dynamically place the player plus party within a given faction role, which changes as the player gains (or loses) rank/reputation. Party interaction with the faction could add complexity, with differing interactions with different faction representatives, new party members emerging, others leave yet remain allies over time, and other non-party persistent allies emerge. Overall, its the same sort of stuff seen in most RPG's, but more dynamic, flexible, semi-random, to create a sense of "emergent depth" which helps to make each game a unique experience, adding to the reply value. Although this would also promote trial and error save-load cycles to get the desired results, similar to salvaging rare non-purchasable ships/items.
What would need to be done, or left as flexible as reasonably possible, to allow the modding community to implement some of what could be? (requests)
Beyond the obvious, keep hardcoding of high level game logic and data to an absolute minimum...
For the dialog example above, allowing for use of as much script logic as possible in dialog, internally and externally to the dialog system, and without requiring every little chat to have a mission wrapper. If case studies are needed then start with older RPG's, the more recent ones have horribly limited dialog systems. I think its safe to assume anyone wanting this much depth and flexibility in dialog won't be too worried about voice over quality, and there are free for non-commercial-use voice sample data sets the community could use, though using them might require scripting a custom voice over engine (almost feasible in X3TC).
I think the player party concept might be feasible as-is, provided there isn't anything especially limiting in the logic behind the player ship co-pilot and crew, being able to use those characters as templates (of sorts) would help a lot. On a faction level, no idea, not enough is known at this point. For the scripting behind both, its nearly feasible in X3TC, main barriers are the difficulty of working with MD scripts and either the lack of interoperability with MSCI scripts, or lack of MSCI equivalent capabilities in MD scripts - its reasonably safe to assume both will not be a problem in Rebirth.
Note, again, ultimate goal here is brainstorming ideas cool enough that it inspires the developers to leave more flexibility in the game logic/data, or at least not arbitrarily hardcode stuff as in the past. There really isn't enough known yet to make case-specific compelling arguments as would normally be done in the L3 forum. This alternate approach might accomplish the same thing while also being constructive, and less annoying. Finally, this is intentionally unnecessarily detailed to reinforce the point its serious, and I doubt I'm the only one already thinking about how they want to mod Rebirth...
New questions and some examples to get started...
What sort of RPG aspects could have worked well in X3 (R or TC) if not for game engine/data limitations? (scope)
I think the most obvious is dialog, some X3-R scripts attempted this with mixed to poor results, and interest dropped off in TC due to the limitations. I'd imagine something along the lines of chatting with all unique plot characters, other captains at a trade dock (e.g. Freelancer style bar), race/faction members, and hirelings like Lucike's script added crew members. In X3 the limitation wasn't only a lack of a dialog system, but, and more to the point, a lack of underlying logic to make those chats worthwhile. For example, a dynamically generated character sheet system, including a personal history, could be used to reveal information about the sectors the NPC visits regularly as a part of their role, recent activity in the nearest of those sectors, and particular details on their home sector including history/stories. That being a somewhat generic dialog tree for use by most characters, driven by templates plus a mix of logged and real time universe data. All of this creates a facade, the NPC might have just spawned, never having visited the sectors they apparently know about. A more advanced system could use a convoluted chatter bot of sorts fed by a robust database of available NPC knowledge partially unique to any particular game (differing with each new game).
What sort of new-to-X RPG aspects could be applied to Rebirth based on what is known? (point)
Player party, classic RPG staple, worked well enough with Mass Effect 2 to show how it could work even better in Rebirth -but- without reaching the same game dominating full RPG depth of ME1, DA1, KOTOR1-2, NWN1-2, BG, etc. Probably start with a ship crew of special NPC's with robust character design, build the RPG style relationships via sending them through hell together, while making time for plenty of dialog, then graduate them to captains of the player's fleet as it grows. With improved AI, basic character system, and an overly complicated special jobs system, these ship captains could have all sorts of special behaviors unavailable to normal hirelings. On an individual level they could have personal missions at various stages of their "development" from crew member to captain, a second set of personal history derived semi-dynamic missions/encounters, a third set of semi-spontaneous semi-dynamic missions/encounters which emerge as they travel around the universe on fleet duties as a benefit to using these NPC's over generic hirelings, more in-depth reactions to given situations using mission wrappers, and more... On a fleet level they could spread out to tackle larger semi-dynamic plot missions/events, with the traditional RPG "dramatic complications".
A variation on the same concept could be applied to NPC factions, like TC corporations and/or the BBS based guild scripts created for X3-R, but expanded to semi-dynamically place the player plus party within a given faction role, which changes as the player gains (or loses) rank/reputation. Party interaction with the faction could add complexity, with differing interactions with different faction representatives, new party members emerging, others leave yet remain allies over time, and other non-party persistent allies emerge. Overall, its the same sort of stuff seen in most RPG's, but more dynamic, flexible, semi-random, to create a sense of "emergent depth" which helps to make each game a unique experience, adding to the reply value. Although this would also promote trial and error save-load cycles to get the desired results, similar to salvaging rare non-purchasable ships/items.
What would need to be done, or left as flexible as reasonably possible, to allow the modding community to implement some of what could be? (requests)
Beyond the obvious, keep hardcoding of high level game logic and data to an absolute minimum...
For the dialog example above, allowing for use of as much script logic as possible in dialog, internally and externally to the dialog system, and without requiring every little chat to have a mission wrapper. If case studies are needed then start with older RPG's, the more recent ones have horribly limited dialog systems. I think its safe to assume anyone wanting this much depth and flexibility in dialog won't be too worried about voice over quality, and there are free for non-commercial-use voice sample data sets the community could use, though using them might require scripting a custom voice over engine (almost feasible in X3TC).
I think the player party concept might be feasible as-is, provided there isn't anything especially limiting in the logic behind the player ship co-pilot and crew, being able to use those characters as templates (of sorts) would help a lot. On a faction level, no idea, not enough is known at this point. For the scripting behind both, its nearly feasible in X3TC, main barriers are the difficulty of working with MD scripts and either the lack of interoperability with MSCI scripts, or lack of MSCI equivalent capabilities in MD scripts - its reasonably safe to assume both will not be a problem in Rebirth.
Note, again, ultimate goal here is brainstorming ideas cool enough that it inspires the developers to leave more flexibility in the game logic/data, or at least not arbitrarily hardcode stuff as in the past. There really isn't enough known yet to make case-specific compelling arguments as would normally be done in the L3 forum. This alternate approach might accomplish the same thing while also being constructive, and less annoying. Finally, this is intentionally unnecessarily detailed to reinforce the point its serious, and I doubt I'm the only one already thinking about how they want to mod Rebirth...
"Only the dead have seen the end of war." -Plato
Just wanted to say guys that with X3 series of games i always treated them like Rpg's but with missing features, filling in the gaps in my own head lol I think with rebirth egosoft are just filling in the gaps for us with game mechanics which i welcome! 
I used to list PC parts here, but "the best" will suffice!