Unbiased Poll about The Pride of Albion vs multiple ships - Part 1

General discussions about X Rebirth.

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Post by Santi » Thu, 13. Dec 12, 22:09

Bernd
It starts with what we call zones. This can be anything from a city in space or a group of factories to a unique asteroid field or any other interesting location. Zones are either at the end of local highways or alongside a local highway. Most of the time a group of zones, sometimes hundreds of kilometres apart form a sector. Sectors are then connected with superhighways and form a cluster (e.g a solar system).
I will be surprised if drones reach sector range, and they will probably operate within a maximum radius from the Skunk, being remote controlled, it makes sense to implement a limit to where they can operate. Another reason is, Drones are a multiplier to the capabilities of the Skunk, so they will be more effective when used in conjunction with it.
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One thing I'd like to see in X Rebirth from Egosoft...

Post by immortalfrieza » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 06:19

Either reverse that idea that you can't cap ships and fly them like you could since X-Tension if they have the time to do it, or create an expansion that allows it later like X-Tension is. I've heard about the go into your ship and interact with the crew aspect that Rebirth is going to have, but that won't be too much of a problem, they just have to create separate backgrounds of each cappable ship.

Why? It's because being able to capture and fly ships is one of the main reasons I got into the X-series to begin with, I was looking for another ship game that allows ship capturing after playing Sid Meier's Pirates! to death. After looking for a while I found X3: Reunion and have been hooked ever since. Among all the spaceship simulation games I looked at, the X-universe games are unique due to the ability to capture ships, all others just stick you in 1 ship the whole game and have you upgrade it, and running around collecting credits (or whatever the currency is called in that game) to be able to do that is actually pretty boring since ship combat isn't a very efficient to get credits in those games, mostly trading is the quickest way, and trading is kind of boring..

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Re: One thing I'd like to see in X Rebirth from Egosoft...

Post by bizbag » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 06:39

immortalfrieza wrote: they just have to create separate backgrounds of each cappable ship.
Yeah, they should be able to knock that out over their lunch breaks, right? Design the entire interiors of each ship you can own? Shouldn't take long.

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 06:52

Well, considering as they are going to be creating all the station interiors, and that there are going to be a ton of different highly detailed stations to create, then it stands to reason that, like most game companies, they are going to be re-using a lot of models between sets, and could hypothetically just reuse portions of the interiors of stations in creating the interiors of the cap ships, it should be possible without some herculean extra effort.

The reason they're binding you to one ship doesn't have to do with the interiors, it has to do with the fact that they want to make the survival of the Skunk plot-mandatory, and want to go back to a more strictly linear plot structure, which means curtailing your liberties as a player.

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Post by immortalfrieza » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 07:13

Wraith_Magus wrote:Well, considering as they are going to be creating all the station interiors, and that there are going to be a ton of different highly detailed stations to create, then it stands to reason that, like most game companies, they are going to be re-using a lot of models between sets, and could hypothetically just reuse portions of the interiors of stations in creating the interiors of the cap ships, it should be possible without some herculean extra effort.

The reason they're binding you to one ship doesn't have to do with the interiors, it has to do with the fact that they want to make the survival of the Skunk plot-mandatory, and want to go back to a more strictly linear plot structure, which means curtailing your liberties as a player.
That's unfortunate, because it means X-Rebirth will have very little unique to offer. Besides, there's no reason they can't make the plot more linear AND have ship capturing.

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Post by bizbag » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 07:39

Nobody said you wouldn't be able to capture or own large ships.

You won't be able to actually physically enter them, but nobody said you couldn't capture or own them.

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Post by pref » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 07:42

I think you will be able to board ships still.

I don't mind not being able to sit in capitals cockpit anyway especially if that means they will get more powerful than in TC (annoying to be able kill the biggest ships in the game with a smaller craft).
Capitals should be able to project insane amounts of firepower, and shouldn't be a one-man vessel so i also like the idea of a crew flying it.

I don't think i spent more than 10 mins piloting an M1/M2 anyway. Much more exciting to command them and do the dogfight myself.

If you want to fly ships that can kill anything and never get destroyed then a cheat script might be the solution :D

And after reading the stickies here i get the impression that it indeed offers quite a lot...

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Post by Shaevar » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 08:49

I do think that I saw somewhere a quote from one of the devs saying that boarding will be an element of gameplay

Really can't recall where I saw this and couldn't find the specific quote again, but as far as I can tell, it will be implemented.

But maybe my memory is playing tricks on me and is being more wishful then truthful, though :D

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Post by A5PECT » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 09:23

Boarding crews are mentioned in the bottom-most section of this sticky.
Bernd wrote:Some examples of NPCs working for you:
  • • Managers onboard your factories run the economy side. They buy and sell wares, but will only do what you allow them to do.
    • Captain of a ship: He or she is the person on the bridge who steers the ship according to your commands. You can tell them what you want them to do in very fine detail, or you give them more freedom or assign them to work for a station manager.
    • Your Co-Pilot: She was already mentioned above and she is the most important of all NPCs in this game. You will learn more about her soon.
    Boarding crew: Just one example of crew members working for you.
There are no specifics on boarding in Rebirth: how the process itself will work, which ships and ship types are boardable, or if there are other ways to capture ships.

All we know is there will be boarding crews, which implies boarding will be there in some way.
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Post by Geek » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 11:39

Wraith_Magus wrote:Well, considering as they are going to be creating all the station interiors
Nope. Read the Q/A thread.
Bernd wrote:You can walk around on station platforms and inside your playership by moving from one point to another
Yes you can leave your ship to come in contact with NPCs on plattforms
Right on commander !

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Post by JellybeanTiger » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 13:46

Co-op.that is all.

Would make the game 1000 times more enjoyable.

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Post by caleb » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 18:36

We should just wait for the final product, and see how it plays out. Having less controllable ships does not automatically make it a bad game, and just having more controllable ships does not automatically make it good either...

I love having lots of options, but only if they are good and well developed.

Apparently we will have capping. I just hope it is exciting, and difficult :)

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 19:00

Geek wrote:
Wraith_Magus wrote:Well, considering as they are going to be creating all the station interiors
Nope. Read the Q/A thread.
Bernd wrote:You can walk around on station platforms and inside your playership by moving from one point to another
Yes you can leave your ship to come in contact with NPCs on plattforms
I think you're a little confused as to what I wrote, because what I said is supported by what you just quoted to rebut me.

I said that Egosoft will be creating station interiors for players to look at, and that part you quoted says that players will be able to land on station platforms and move around and talk to characters there.

What you quoted is the exact reason why they'd need to create station interiors. (It's not as if Ego is just going to make a big sign that says "pretend we made a station here" and have you talk to NPCs floating in space.)
pref wrote:I don't think i spent more than 10 mins piloting an M1/M2 anyway. Much more exciting to command them and do the dogfight myself.
Not to completely rehash the whole "Versus Multiple Ships" thread all over again, but the point is not about whether or not flying in an M2 is popular, but whether or not there is valid reason to exclude the people who do want to play that way or not.

There are certainly ways to make there be crews on a cap ship even while letting you have the captain's seat. (It just becomes more like the Enterprise than like a one-man fighter.) And even in huge ships (actually, especially in huge ships), there are reasons to have a sophisticated AI automating most ship functions, rather than having a larger human crew than strictly necessary that needs living space and food and such.
caleb wrote:We should just wait for the final product, and see how it plays out. Having less controllable ships does not automatically make it a bad game, and just having more controllable ships does not automatically make it good either...

I love having lots of options, but only if they are good and well developed.
Saying that we shouldn't analyze or talk about anything until after it's too late to change anything capitulates on the whole point of communication as a means of human advancement.

Isn't it a better use of our time talking about ways to make options that are good and well-developed, so that we know what we actually want, and can ask for them?
JellybeanTiger wrote:Co-op.that is all.

Would make the game 1000 times more enjoyable.
What does this have to do with this thread?

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Post by Nanook » Fri, 21. Dec 12, 19:24

No need for another flying only one ship thread, which is basically what this is. Merging with the ongoing thread.
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How do you feel about the idea of having only 1 ship?

Post by professor00179 » Sat, 22. Dec 12, 04:40

The information about it was released some time ago, back when the game was in much earlier development stage so it could be changed (if I missed some information), but I've read that the game will offer only one ship that can be expanded.

What do you think about it? Personally, I'm not a fan of such solution to the game. I know this isnt a new concept and in my experience it didnt work that well. While I'm aware that giving DarkStar One as an example of anything is not ideal, it is an argument to think that this solution might not work.

In fact, when you think about it, the idea of having just one ship is in most ways a limitation, rather than the 'perfect' solution of being able to 'adjust' your ship to your needs. I don't want to be seen as a hater, the game didnt come out as of yet and most of what I say might be just talking out of my ***, but one of the biggest selling points for me in such games is to be able to buy dozens of different ships. And yes, I'm aware that 'expanding' my ship could potentially allow for more combinations than any number of ships would, but when I visit the market/hangar to buy some equipment its the idea of buying 2x bigger and better ship that excites me, not Gatling MkII.

I could never really understand why exactly I dont enjoy such solutions, but for me, the concept of having only 1 ship always felt as if my progress in the game wasnt that huge. You end up 80h into the game and you have that feeling of something missing, because even though you fly a powerful battlecruiser, its still the same ship you were to begin with, just 'expanded'.

It's just a personal thing, but I wonder if any of you share it with me? How do you feel about having only one ship?

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Post by theeclownbroze » Sat, 22. Dec 12, 04:55

you can pilot drones that are the size of your ship and bigger than it in first person view, imo this just gives the game a legitimate reason why there would be no interiors for other ships when piloting them, you can control capital ships as if you were the captain of a real life warship in the pacific, other reasons are because it would just take extra long time for the devs to make the game if every ship had an interior, and if they did not imho i don't want another x3tc please i want a rebirth, something new that the previous x games did not do

we'll see when the game comes out ayy

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Sat, 22. Dec 12, 05:22

I feel this thread is a repeat of the existing "one ship vs. multiple ships" thread, and will be moved into that thread just like the last thread that was on the same topic.

Further, as previously discussed, you don't get to customize your ship nearly as much as you think you do - it's strictly linear upgrades with no customization possible other than "Upgrade everything" or "No, I don't want to upgrade my engines to max because I'm apparently a masochist."
I could never really understand why exactly I dont enjoy such solutions, but for me, the concept of having only 1 ship always felt as if my progress in the game wasnt that huge. You end up 80h into the game and you have that feeling of something missing, because even though you fly a powerful battlecruiser, its still the same ship you were to begin with, just 'expanded'.
You might want to watch this video on the Core Game Aesthetics, which may help you find words for what you are trying to describe.

Basically speaking, any time "customizability" is a major factor in a game, or better yet, the ability to build your own stuff wholesale, then what you have is a Core Aesthetic of Expression, and the notion that you are moving up in the world, and having an impact on the world around you and actively participating with the world and reacting to its world, you are engaging in Fantasy.

The thing is, most players want Fantasy and Expression in sandbox games - to feel like they're there, and that they are free to do and be whoever they want. There are also people who want to just look at pretty things (Sensation), but generally, the reason we're here is for those two main reasons.

What EgoSoft seems to be trying to do, however, is crush the reasons players are playing the game in order to go along with its ideas on Narrative, which nobody likes about the X-series, and would just make it compete with all the other generic forgettable games out there on their terms.

In short, it's a bad move - Narrative was never their strength, and it's not why people will be looking at their game.

=====

Also,
theeclownbroze wrote:you can pilot drones that are the size of your ship and bigger than it in first person view, imo this just gives the game a legitimate reason why there would be no interiors for other ships when piloting them, you can control capital ships as if you were the captain of a real life warship in the pacific, other reasons are because it would just take extra long time for the devs to make the game if every ship had an interior, and if they did not imho i don't want another x3tc please i want a rebirth, something new that the previous x games did not do

we'll see when the game comes out ayy
That's not true.

The reason there will be no multiple ships is because they want to make it plot-mandatory that the Skunk survives, and that you have exactly the power-level they want you to have when they make linear scripted plot missions. (As opposed to the current system of rubber-banding the threat to your current power levels.)

I.E. they want the game to be more like GTA, where they can force you to drive a certain car and then make it so you fail the mission and start over if you leave their scripted cinematic chase sequences that involve flying through complexes and making things blow up in slow motion, instead of letting players do what they want to do in a supposed sandbox game.

Further, I have no idea where you get the idea it will be like being a captain on a warship "in the Pacific", being as you very specifically do not get to be a captain of a warship, and cannot ever leave your smaller craft except when docked, and even then, can do nothing but talk to someone or get back on your ship and leave.

Likewise, as I said repeatedly in the thread this thread is going to be merged with, there's no reason they couldn't make interiors for every ship fairly easily just through re-use of the station interior models they already are going to have to make for all the stations you can land on, anyway. (I.E. if you make hallways and rooms and such for Boron stations, you can pretty much just copy-paste most of the models for their ships, as well.)

=====

Edited in the part after that first quote, but before the first break.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus on Sat, 22. Dec 12, 05:33, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Phaser Rave » Sat, 22. Dec 12, 05:28

I like how it's done in X3TC, but I just know that they'll do a great job in Rebirth!
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Post by bizbag » Sat, 22. Dec 12, 05:31

We've really yet to see how much direct control we can really have over other ships. We might very well be able to "pilot" a frigate wherever we want for as long as we want, we just wouldn't be "in" the ship.

There's a part of me that misses the idea of being able to get into any ship in the game, but then I also realize that we pretty much all gravitate towards a few ships that we pilot the majority of the time. I'd wager a significant plurality of all players spend the majority of their time in Springblossoms and Hyperions the longer their save files go on. Yeah, people enjoy flying M2s and such for special occasions, but I highly doubt they do so all the time, they jump it in, switch to it, engage, then get back in their other ship when they're done.

I do realize that there's difference of opinion: some people love flying smaller fighters or larger frigates as their primary vessel, and might see the Albion Skunk as the developers deciding for them what to fly. However, we still don't know *how much* we can upgrade the Skunk. It could very well go in either direction.

The only real basis we have to compare with here is X: Beyond the Frontier. Granted, you couldn't fly a freighter, but you could upgrade your cargobay so that you could make all the money you'd ever need trading. You could upgrade your speed to match the fastest M5s (and those damn Xenon K, why were they so fast?) and you could personally shoot down the toughest Xenon carriers. The ship really could do it all. Perhaps Rebirth will allow such customization (within reason), while also allowing us to remote pilot the other ships we own.

Edit:
Wraith_Magus wrote:Further, as previously discussed, you don't get to customize your ship nearly as much as you think you do - it's strictly linear upgrades with no customization possible other than "Upgrade everything" or "No, I don't want to upgrade my engines to max because I'm apparently a masochist."
I haven't seen any official source say this. Was it said in another thread by a developer? Can you link the source?

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Post by Wraith_Magus » Sat, 22. Dec 12, 05:41

bizbag wrote:I haven't seen any official source say this. Was it said in another thread by a developer? Can you link the source?
Basically, half the "versus multiple ships" thread has been just quoting this part of the Bernd interview sticky thread every few pages to each new participant who misses the key parts:
Question:
That means I decide my equipment depending on my plans, 'packing' what I'll need right now – or can I stuff everything I might need or use at some point into the ship?

Bernd:
Yes and no. Theoretically, you can pack everything into your ship. There is no RPG-like tree structure, at least not for your own ship. But you will have to weigh your decisions – at least at the start, as there are differences. For example, if you buy an expensive weapon system right at the start, you might be unable to buy something else.
But this will effectively be guided by the plot. The plot is meant to introduce you to all those systems, teaching you how to use them and what you can accomplish with them.

...

Question:
How will the upgrading of the ship's modules be designed? Will we be able to choose between different modules – like a cargo and a weapons module – at certain points in the story? Or will you be able to use all modules at the end of the story or can you buy them?

Bernd:
That's the question I answered previously. With the enhancement of your ship. That this is no tree, more a linear development. Technically, you can decide freely. But in actuality the plot makes it more linear as it leads you through the story, unlocking and showing you the possible upgrades.
The main ship has linear power progression, and that progression is mandated by the plot.

In other words, it's a lot like Legend of Zelda - at specifically scripted stages of the story, you get a new tool, and then the game demands you use that new tool on the stage boss to show you understand it, and from then on, the game has its difficulty balanced based upon you having that tool.

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