Unbiased Poll about The Pride of Albion vs multiple ships - Part II

[Geek]

This poll does not say that flying multiple ships is the only thing that makes an X game fun, it is expressing a simple preference - it does not imply that everyone that voted for multiple ship piloting options would not find X-Rebirth fun without said feature.

Indeed. Maybe the rest of the game content is worth it. But we have not see much of it really, not even at the Gamescon.

[EmperorJon]

I have a feeling they're holding back showing as much as possible until we near release and it has to be frozen until feedback afterwards. They've said before that they're trying to break the trend of "game massively buggy on release day" and it seems they may not actually make it this time, but they're getting closer. To me the release will probably feel like early-access anyway.

[Novembermike]

I'm pretty much OK with the way they are doing things as long as it's just for this game. Let them provide a unique experience and go on to something more traditional when they have the extra money from the sales of this game and the extra time to implement it.

If I want to play X3 again I still have it and the release of Rebirth isn't going to take that away.

[DaMuncha]

Life and death come and go like marionettes dancing on a table. Once their strings are cut, they easily crumble.

[Slashman]

As I myself have confirmed before (and was told I was delusional and voting for something I didn't like ) in the past.

I would prefer more ships. I will regardless still enjoy the game with the Skunk, because it's big and beautiful and we can do so much stuff and, even if the game wasn't "fun" without mods... but it was with... surely it's fun, right?

DaMuncha says a game which needs mods to make it fun is not a good game, but if the game with mods is fun, then what's the issue?

Honestly, I'd be very reluctant to support a game that only becomes entertaining by the application of a third party product.

I think that mods should enhance and expand, they shouldn't fix the major shortcomings of a game. If that is the case for most people playing, then it is a failure of the developers to recognize that their game design was flawed.

Skyrim, while majorly awesome with mods, is not a bad game without them. Likewise for Fallout. When I see a mod that truly fixes broken things in a game or tries to make game mechanics that are bad, tolerable, I applaud the modder but have to seriously lower my opinion of the developer.

[EmperorJon]

I agree that it's not good that the game is bad, and you shouldn't really encourage developers to make bad games.

At the same time though, if someone showed me a mediocre game with issues which, given a free mod that was easy to access/in common use/etc. was a very very good game, then I wouldn't refuse to play the game just to not support a poor developer, if that makes sense. It'd be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Anyway, irrelevant. I don't think Rebirth will need mods to be playable, in the same way I don't think X3 or X2 needed them either, whereas some did.
And on the Skyrim front, there are actually tons of issues in the game which have only been fixed by modders... and the more I play the more I don't like the game anyway.

[Sam L.R. Griffiths]

Honestly, I'd be very reluctant to support a game that only becomes entertaining by the application of a third party product.

I find it amusing that a number of people think they can predict if a game is going to be entertaining or not before actually trying it based solely on the presence or absence of a single feature.

Ok, if they only thing that has made the X-series fun for you was the ability to pilot more than one ship then perhaps X-Rebirth is not for you. But then I must ask, have you played and enjoyed other games with similar restrictive mechanics?

Freelancer for instance allowed you to only own one ship at a time and did not allow the ownership of stations. Ok, it had multiplayer but the only thing that made multiplayer enjoyable for at least some was mods. Did that make Freelancer a bad game?

DarkStar One was even more restrictive than Freelancer (only one uber ship) and no ownership of any other ships or stations. It was still fun to play though, and so could be considered a good game (albeit limited).

SpaceForce: Rogue Universe is basically Freelancer without multi-player, not a bad game but still limited.

X-Rebirth however would appear to be allowing us to build up fleets as we see fit and how we do it will have impact on the rest of the universe if the blurb is to be believed. If it lives up to it's own purported expectations, the being able to pilot a single ship will only be a foot note complaint.

Can we actually predict how X-Rebirth will pan out, probably not. If you have your doubts that is understandable but it does not make those doubts a certainty nor does it make anyone who is optimistic about it a fool.

[Slashman]

I find it amusing that a number of people think they can predict if a game is going to be entertaining or not before actually trying it based solely on the presence or absence of a single feature.

Ok, if they only thing that has made the X-series fun for you was the ability to pilot more than one ship then perhaps X-Rebirth is not for you. But then I must ask, have you played and enjoyed other games with similar restrictive mechanics?

Freelancer for instance allowed you to only own one ship at a time and did not allow the ownership of stations. Ok, it had multiplayer but the only thing that made multiplayer enjoyable for at least some was mods. Did that make Freelancer a bad game?

DarkStar One was even more restrictive than Freelancer (only one uber ship) and no ownership of any other ships or stations. It was still fun to play though, and so could be considered a good game (albeit limited).

SpaceForce: Rogue Universe is basically Freelancer without multi-player, not a bad game but still limited.

X-Rebirth however would appear to be allowing us to build up fleets as we see fit and how we do it will have impact on the rest of the universe if the blurb is to be believed. If it lives up to it's own purported expectations, the being able to pilot a single ship will only be a foot note complaint.

Can we actually predict how X-Rebirth will pan out, probably not. If you have your doubts that is understandable but it does not make those doubts a certainty nor does it make anyone who is optimistic about it a fool.

What are you actually talking about? I wasn't talking specifically about Rebirth. You might need to take a step back and reread what I wrote.

I was talking about games in general.

[Rabiator der II.]

I agree that it's not good that the game is bad, and you shouldn't really encourage developers to make bad games.

At the same time though, if someone showed me a mediocre game with issues which, given a free mod that was easy to access/in common use/etc. was a very very good game, then I wouldn't refuse to play the game just to not support a poor developer, if that makes sense. It'd be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Agreed, but with one reservation:
The mod has to exist for that. In case of X3TC, my favorite mod so far (Time Of The Truth) came out years after the game itself.

At that time, the game is likely to be available at bargain bin prices and the developer won't make the same profit as from an early sale. So there is still an incentive to make a good game from the start .

[gbjbaanb]

but as someone else said - in X2 there were cutscenes and there was a previous X game with a single ship.

X3 did not have cutscenes and had many ships.

So... is Rebirth a retrograde step, or is it a new engine that is restricted because it is new. Will the next game in the series bring back multiple ships and remove the 'walking on stations' equivalent of the old cutscenes? I hesitate to say we'll find out by sales as many of us will buy this regardless of what it is - the number of hours spent playing X3 is worth buying Rebirth just to put it on a shelf, but I would hope the devs can find out if Rebirth gets as much play as X3 got, and will listen to the community to decide what direction to take the next version. Until then, let just see - I think it'll be fine, but not awesomely great, but I also think it'll have some patches and DLC appearing quite shortly.

[Hemmingfish]

Maybe they removed the flying other ships feature...

I think as this is a new game engine rebuilt from scratch, I believe it is fairer to say "Maybe they did not implement the flying other ships feature...".

Eeehmm.. if they implement flying a ship they automatic implemented flying other ships. In the end flying a ship is nothing more than a fancy cockpit and moving the 3D object that represents the ship.

That is an overly simplistic way of looking at it, moving an object around in 3D space in accordance with a planned/dynamic route is not the same as allowing user control of the same vessel. There is probably more involved than simply adding a cockpit.

Nah, Henkie is quite right. The systems are already in place, the only thing that would need altering is to extend the interface for different hardpoints (several guns at once, that sort of thing) and add cockpit models with the correct camera placement. The controls don't care what the model looks like or what the AI was set up to do if you apply them to an arbitrary object.
I say this as someone who has worked on a (albeit student) space game in the past on the programming side.

[Night Nord]

Nah, Henkie is quite right. The systems are already in place, the only thing that would need altering is to extend the interface for different hardpoints (several guns at once, that sort of thing) and add cockpit models with the correct camera placement. The controls don't care what the model looks like or what the AI was set up to do if you apply them to an arbitrary object.
I say this as someone who has worked on a (albeit student) space game in the past on the programming side.

Controls don't care about looks, but they do care about size. If your other ship is too large or too small - your whole balance is bust. Technically - it's just more expensive to produce, as you need to test every single feature/mission/etc with all the ships possible.

[Hemmingfish]

Nah, Henkie is quite right. The systems are already in place, the only thing that would need altering is to extend the interface for different hardpoints (several guns at once, that sort of thing) and add cockpit models with the correct camera placement. The controls don't care what the model looks like or what the AI was set up to do if you apply them to an arbitrary object.
I say this as someone who has worked on a (albeit student) space game in the past on the programming side.

Controls don't care about looks, but they do care about size. If your other ship is too large or too small - your whole balance is bust. Technically - it's just more expensive to produce, as you need to test every single feature/mission/etc with all the ships possible.

They do not care about size. If it suited you, you could set yourself up with a ship the size of a planet that turns on a dime. The fact that ships already turn at different speeds using the AI pathing means that they have a variable already that can be used to influence turning speeds. Again, you are talking without thinking.

[tijcker]

I think X beyond the frontier was the best game yet, one fully expandable ship, and a game story you can complete to the very end with a full fleet of fighters to battle with for the final battle, that's what I want from this game, I like all the construction in the other games but it didn't feel the same.

[Night Nord]

They do not care about size. If it suited you, you could set yourself up with a ship the size of a planet that turns on a dime. The fact that ships already turn at different speeds using the AI pathing means that they have a variable already that can be used to influence turning speeds. Again, you are talking without thinking.

I didn't quite get it - it's not about pressing "A" to turn left, or "D" to turn right. It's about dimensions of station entrances, which you would be required to fly though during the plot or other activities. You know, Terran Valhalla in X3 was never meant to be playership - it even can't fit into gates, but people still obtain it, running into numerous problems.

If you make something playable you have to be sure that it's actually playable everywhere at any time. If you are making a good quality polished game, that is.

[Hemmingfish]

They do not care about size. If it suited you, you could set yourself up with a ship the size of a planet that turns on a dime. The fact that ships already turn at different speeds using the AI pathing means that they have a variable already that can be used to influence turning speeds. Again, you are talking without thinking.

I didn't quite get it - it's not about pressing "A" to turn left, or "D" to turn right. It's about dimensions of station entrances, which you would be required to fly though during the plot or other activities. You know, Terran Valhalla in X3 was never meant to be playership - it even can't fit into gates, but people still obtain it, running into numerous problems.

If you make something playable you have to be sure that it's actually playable everywhere at any time. If you are making a good quality polished game, that is.

So the fighter-sized ships will have issues getting into stations, right? Or how about those capital ships that do your trading. Those will definitely have issues fitting, of course.

[Night Nord]

So the fighter-sized ships will have issues getting into stations, right? Or how about those capital ships that do your trading. Those will definitely have issues fitting, of course.

You've probably missed the part of "other activities" and "plot". You know, in X3: Reunion there was a part of the plot when you've being flying inside the asteroid. And if you were in something larger then M3 it was insta-fail.

Also, capital ships will probably require some other docking ports, which means - you have to somewhat differentiate icons by suitable to small ships and capital ships, etc... That's not so easy. It's doesn't require ingenuity, sure, but still it's a lot of work for each ship you'll add. Mostly - testing, testing and testing.

[EmperorJon]

They've already shown that capitals don't physically dock, they park next to a hangar and ship the freight using drones. (Like TLs were always supposed to in the fluff of the games, but never actually did...)

[Hemmingfish]

They've already shown that capitals don't physically dock, they park next to a hangar and ship the freight using drones. (Like TLs were always supposed to in the fluff of the games, but never actually did...)

And like capital ships did in X3. This isn't helping your case at all.

[EmperorJon]

What case?
Someone said something about different size docks for different craft, and I was merely stating that there are (as far as we know) already 2 different methods.