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Santi
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Post by Santi » Fri, 13. Jan 17, 23:52

RAVEN.myst wrote:Hahahah! Hmmm, that may be a good way to avoid growing old navigating those gated stairwells...
Like the ones going down to the night club I presume. Took me a few tries to reach the walk away in the night club. Never tough that you will get some platform jumping gameplay in a X game.
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Sat, 14. Jan 17, 03:03

Santi wrote: Never tough that you will get some platform jumping gameplay in a X game.
:rofl: In my first couple of games, and sometimes in the early game of new playthroughs, or simply if I'm bored and waiting for the capital ship I'm on to get to where it's going, I play Prince of Persia or Mario or Montezuma's Revenge or whatever on the various crates and other objects on the ship's landing pad. Also, getting up on that "hut"'s roof sometimes gets a better view :)
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Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 14. Jan 17, 14:08

What I would love for X4 is to have some kind of very large uncharted/uncolonized area where is no highways, no jump beacons, Xenon/Khaak/Pirates here and there and a lot of treasures to dig up.

Something like 3-4 times the size of Torride system, but it would be the chain of several such systems.
To go to the very end of the chain player would have to make a large expedition with fleet & supplies maybe even set-up the supply outpost.

Additionaly it would be even better if such space would be randomly generated (e.g. diffrent space every time player start new gameplay).

That way we would be real explorers witout the posibility to go to internet for mmap that reveal all the stuff and even when we reveal it all, the next game will be a mystery/discovery again.


Now in both Torride and Maelstorm you don't feel that you are far away due to the fact that with JD you are always one jump away from civilization.

They would need to ballance the JD to work like capship JD - you can't jump to any point in universe, but to the gate in the system you are. Then you fly through the gate and use JD again to fly to the next one.

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Post by Ormac » Mon, 16. Jan 17, 03:33

One of the more tedious things I've found with XR is the Miners always needing to remain in squad to mine. Particularly the Harvesters since their hold is so small.

The always flying towards me when I might just want them to stay near to where they are and mine there again

I understand you can only compress liquid so much but 8,000 product units compared with 15,000 is kind of crazy.

Well I finally added the YAT mod and Love the Home Zoning that is applyed to miners.

I would like to see Egosoft add that to the home zoning in next game. I'm quite happy to tell the capitan where to offload the wares then if the ship will return to the zone and restart mining.

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Post by Nanook » Tue, 17. Jan 17, 20:31

Ormac wrote:One of the more tedious things I've found with XR is the Miners always needing to remain in squad to mine. ...
?? Mine don't. :? And no, I'm not using YAT. Also, not sure what you mean by "home zoning".
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Tue, 17. Jan 17, 21:08

Neither do mine (well, unless using the Skunk's mining laser and then getting the miner to collect, of course - kinda unavoidable by definition, there ^^) As for the "home zoning", sounds to me like whatever mod offers that allows a mining zone to be designated, to which the miners will return once they have sold/offloaded. This is something I have long wished was available (in vanilla) for station-bound miners, as it would avoid... well, it's an issue that was recently discussed in the beta feedback forum (two issues under discussion there, in fact, and BOTH would be solved by the ability to specify where the mining ship works...) Too bad that I really don't see this happening in XR (in fact, an unrelated comment from a dev, in another beta thread, strongly hints to me that 4.1 will prove to be the final update... Sad if true.)

I think I better go to sleep - I suspect I'm losing coherence :P
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Post by Sparky Sparkycorp » Tue, 17. Jan 17, 21:27

Yeah, in YAT we can designate a Home Zone to player-owned free miners and free traders. For the traders it specifies where they will begin to trade. For miners, it specifies where they will return to mine after selling materials. In both cases, upon arrival in the home, they obey their range setting (zone/sector/system/galaxy). Yorrick done good :)

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Post by Thufar » Wed, 18. Jan 17, 21:42

I haven't read all 19 pages in this thread, so I don't know if this is already suggested. I'd like to see a button on the architect's building stations screen that moves all sliders to max., with one click.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Thu, 19. Jan 17, 03:26

mr.WHO wrote:What I would love for X4 is to have some kind of very large uncharted/uncolonized area where is no highways, no jump beacons, Xenon/Khaak/Pirates here and there and a lot of treasures to dig up.

Something like 3-4 times the size of Torride system, but it would be the chain of several such systems.
To go to the very end of the chain player would have to make a large expedition with fleet & supplies maybe even set-up the supply outpost.

Additionaly it would be even better if such space would be randomly generated (e.g. diffrent space every time player start new gameplay).

That way we would be real explorers witout the posibility to go to internet for mmap that reveal all the stuff and even when we reveal it all, the next game will be a mystery/discovery again.
I like this idea, very much, in fact (though I think I'd probably want this "uncharted vastness" to be even larger - quite a lot so, in fact.) People occasionally bring up the notion of procedurally generated game content, and while I think this would generally lead to bland, generic content, I think that such a "peripheral" area specifically intended for exploration and created once at the start of a new game, could be a perfect niche application. It could have a certain relatively constant(ish - to make it a little less predictable) set of features/points of interest/Easter Eggs/etc but arranged differently every time. Perhaps there could be a couple of limited-use jump beacons here and there, unique in that they only work partially - available only some of the time, or only after they have been "rebuilt", and perhaps limited in range.

I particularly like the notion of "supplying the outpost" - in fact, why not take it a step farther: be the FOUNDER of a new settlement. At present, one can build one's stations more or less anywhere(ish), but somehow it feels hollow - even though the stations then generate their mass-traffic, it never feels like bringing civilization to the heathen. I think that for starters, NPC station-building needs to happen to make it feel more alive, and no, not the GoD-based strobing of stations as previously, but proper supply-and-demand-based extension of AI-owned assets. Here perhaps could see the return of the contracted station-build missions, where the player is hired to build a station FOR a NPC entity, handing over ownership. But also, the AI would need to initiate its own build projects, which the player could help along with materials (I always very much enjoyed helping those DeVries stations get off the ground, and found it disappointing that the task is so limited in scope and extent.)
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Post by mr.WHO » Sat, 21. Jan 17, 20:35

I'd also love if they further optimize some stuff that cause FPS drops like mass traffic, dust clouds and combat - why every single X-game has to be a slide-show when more than two big ships and a bunch of fighters shoot at eachother in the zone you're present?

- Tiny stuff like replacing WW2 multi-gun fighters with modern one gun Fighters (some of X-Rebirth fighters are already single-gun). That way CPU wouldn't have to calculate and dispay FX from 8 guns, but rather 1. That way larger number of fighters would not murder FPS rate.

X-Rebirth has cool looking fighter battles, but between fighters beign pathetic weak and FPS murder the "cool factor" dissapear.



- less dense asteroid fields - they not only looks strance, but also kill FPS and their greatest sin is the pathfinding nightmare - sometimes even fighters have problems because the asteroid fields are too dense.


- dust clouds/nebulas - these things need serious optimization, I have a big FPS drop every time I'm turning toward these clouds - The ancient Freelancer and Freespace 2 had better looking nebulas that had almost no FPS impact.



I know the game itself is already busy calculating the whole economy and OOS combat already - that is why we need to squeeze every bit of optimization.

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Post by Meme Turtle » Sun, 22. Jan 17, 20:01

A couple of my ideas on what should be in the next X game. Those might not be new but, in my opinion, they are absolutely necessary:
  • -UI optimization. Every X game suffers from UI restrictiveness. Even simple tasks, such as renaming your ships, become tedious as it is only possible to rename one ship at a time. Unless player is using some custom scripts. There are a lot of clicks are needed to get to the necessary sub-menu to change ship behaviour. New UI must allow to change any property parameter with no more than 3-4 total clicks. Additionally, this time mouse must be properly integrated into UI and allow actions like mouse-drag to select, drag&drop(for example to assign wingmen) as well as context based RMB mouse menu: select multiple ships and press RMB to give them the same order or change some of their properties like name or combat behaviour.

    -Ship customization. One of the great things about X Rebirth is increased detailing of ships with surface elements and modular components like engines and cargo blocks. I would really like this to be improved and taken to the next level: every ship should be a core platform with a number of customizable blocks. Allow players to deeply design and alter functionality of their ships. For example, Arawn can have extra cargo slots or weapon platforms instead of fighter docks on his gondolas. Let player decide which weapons, engines, radars he wants to be equipped on his ships.
Also, there are several things that are already present in X rebirth and previous titles and I hope Egosoft preserves them:
  • -Mod support. Modding community is one of the greatest assets of Egosoft and I can only hope that mod support will be improved. Specifically, I have noticed that X Rebirth has only a few mods that add custom ship models. I do not know the reason for this(lack of tool support or lack of modders desire to create new ships) but this should improved.

    -GOG/DRM-free version of the game. I am more than happy to pay extra for the game does not tell me when and where I can play it. I am looking at you, region lock on Steam.

    -Linux support. 1% is still 1% and I am happy Egosoft supports it. Please, keep it that way.

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Post by Observe » Mon, 30. Jan 17, 18:24

Three things I require of the next game:

1. Functioning collision avoidance
2. No Highways
3. Ability to fly all sized ships

Without those, I doubt I'd play it any more than I play Rebirth; which is practically never.

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Post by birdtable » Mon, 30. Jan 17, 19:13

I would be quite happy to have more information screens on the periphery of the cockpit view .... Trade info, Zone info, Ship info etc ... all click on/off and still be able to have total flight control..... Well we can always hope.

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Post by RAVEN.myst » Mon, 30. Jan 17, 20:03

birdtable wrote:I would be quite happy to have more information screens on the periphery of the cockpit view .... Trade info, Zone info, Ship info etc ... all click on/off and still be able to have total flight control..... Well we can always hope.
+1 to this - Rebirth's use of one screen for everything is a ball-ache of note, with each new bit of information overwriting what was there before, which is painful when the previous info hasn't been "digested" yet, or needs to up for the current activity, and VERY painful when multiple updates come in quick succession, along with a couple of video comms from captains/managers - chaos. Thus, splitting out the info into multiple HUD displays that can be watched simultaneously would be a big help (and I like the option of being able to collapse unwanted ones when not needed.) Present-day monitor resolutions make it possible to display plenty of info at once, there's no need for a "coarse-grained" UI such as in Rebirth, that to me smacks of console-connected-to-TV design mentality, and even TVs these days deliver definition that permits much finer detail to be displayed.
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Post by Ezarkal » Mon, 30. Jan 17, 21:19

RAVEN.myst wrote:
birdtable wrote:I would be quite happy to have more information screens on the periphery of the cockpit view .... Trade info, Zone info, Ship info etc ... all click on/off and still be able to have total flight control..... Well we can always hope.
+1 to this - Rebirth's use of one screen for everything is a ball-ache of note, with each new bit of information overwriting what was there before, which is painful when the previous info hasn't been "digested" yet, or needs to up for the current activity, and VERY painful when multiple updates come in quick succession, along with a couple of video comms from captains/managers - chaos. Thus, splitting out the info into multiple HUD displays that can be watched simultaneously would be a big help (and I like the option of being able to collapse unwanted ones when not needed.) Present-day monitor resolutions make it possible to display plenty of info at once, there's no need for a "coarse-grained" UI such as in Rebirth, that to me smacks of console-connected-to-TV design mentality, and even TVs these days deliver definition that permits much finer detail to be displayed.
Just give me a screen dedicated to radar only! :roll:
But yeah, any more screen we could have or remove and configure independently would be a nice bonus. +1 to that.
Otherwise, how difficult/possible would it be to implement dual-screen support? (Screens as in actual computer monitor, this time.) Have the main cockpit immediate flight info on the main screen, and the empire management windows on your side-screen. I heard it's been done in one of the previous X games (X2 I think), and I wonder what kind of engine limitation made it disappear. There are seriously plenty of games out there that would hugely benefit of this.
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Post by RAVEN.myst » Mon, 30. Jan 17, 22:58

Ezarkal wrote:Otherwise, how difficult/possible would it be to implement dual-screen support? (Screens as in actual computer monitor, this time.) Have the main cockpit immediate flight info on the main screen, and the empire management windows on your side-screen. I heard it's been done in one of the previous X games (X2 I think), and I wonder what kind of engine limitation made it disappear. There are seriously plenty of games out there that would hugely benefit of this.
I like this, too - very nice. I'm a big fan of Supreme Commander, for example, not only because it's a great game, but also because you can use two screens (I like to put my main zoomed-in view on my main, and a zoomed out view on the auxiliary, for example.) Yes, it was X2 that supported this, until Microsoft changed the way Windows handles multi-monitors (I think the change was from XP to Vista, or maybe it was from 98 to XP), which made X2's multi-monitor feature stop working :(
I like your notion: main (cockpit) view on main screen, with things such as, perhaps, a map window, property screen, trade menus, etc on the other (ideally with some degree of customisation.)
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Post by RodentofDoom » Tue, 31. Jan 17, 16:37

Something I've said

time, and time, and time again ..

Resources need 2 distinctly seperate lists in station over views

Products
Resources

Intermediaries belong in BOTH, and should have a seperate pricing structure for each case

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Post by mr.WHO » Wed, 1. Feb 17, 19:00

I think that any new X-game is in danger of being either dump-down like X-Rebirth or "wide like an ocean, shallow like a puddle" (like infamous No Mans Scam).


I think that Egosoft need to look back at their X-Game motto:
"Think, Trade, Build, Fight", because none of these evolved since the time of X2 - they just made it more wide, but it still imitation that is shallow.

They need to add depth much more than adding new content of the same thing again and again.

Lets go throught each point:

BUILD:
- How is that player cannot be fully self suficient? Why we cannot build our own shipyard and obtain/steal/reverse-engineer blueprints?
- How is it that there is still NPC/hostiles spawned out of thin air like in ancient X-BTF? I don't ask for ultra accurate economy where every ore orb and every credit matter. However simple system that regulate Faction/Pirate/Xenon spawn based some factor would add depth to the sandbox...if player can affect these factors (e.g if I hunt Xenon miners there will be less Xenon patrols/invasions, if I hunt Pirate raids there will be less pirates over time)

FIGHT:
- How is it that there is still terrible game ballance ever since X2 - pick optimal "excel-sheet" wise M2 and ignore everything else as it's useless OOS? X-Rebirth is even worse, because even IS, anything but a destroyers is an useless piece of crap?
- there should be a well thought ballance between URV-Fighters-Capships. If something is useless then why waste the time and disc space to put it in game (like 90% of Albion fighters). I'd prefere to have 10 ships in where all of theme have purpose and use, rather than 50, but where only 5 are useful.
- generic mission especially the combat ones need to be reballanced - what is the point of "protect station from pirates" where several pirate light fighters attack station armed like an fortress? WHy would station hire someone to "protect" from the attack that has 0% of sucess and 0.00001% of doing any significant dammage?
- more variety of generic combat missions (e.g. Pirates hacked the station turrets and depots and send freighters to stoll the containers)
- more variety of hostiles in generic combat missions - I never saw any capships "pirate attack the station"
- more variety of hostile factions (Pirate and especially Xenons)

THINK:
Well this is hard nut to define, but to me "think" means "think about your purpose" in this sandbox and the purpose means player ability to make a meaningful and I mean MEANIGFUL impact on the universe, no matter if he is a lone pilot or CEO of giant trade empire.
- Point 2 of "Fight" part is one of such examples
- destroying/capturing/ buying out NPC stations.
- increasing or decreasing faction strenght by player actions.
- making that generic missions success/failure gives an long term effect - e.g. you failed to protect station from pirate raid then raid destroy the station and give cash/ticket/treasury bonus to pirates which then contribute to pirate spawn increase.


Additionally the think part is also where I'd put the "Exploration". The exploration part of the X-Games always had this HUGE problem since X-BTF - once you expore whole space there is no more exploration, even if you start the new game you still in the same static space.

This is the part where "procedurally generated space" would shine. Something like the old "unfocussed Jump drive" sector, but on much bigger scale like whole system or even whole uncharted region of several systems which would change every game or even within the same game.
That way you could have carefuly man-made static "Core" space and procedurally/randomly generated "Fringe" space.

TRADE:
I'm not really the trade guy, but I think that thereis several things to deepen the economy.
- replace spawns with shipyard build ships as much as possible
- make pirate-economy based on goods stolen by pirate raids (both freighter raids and station raids) - pirates should have their own black market stations and shipyards. That way if player will patrol space and hunt down pirate raiders this would reduce pirate presence in long er time.
- make xenon-economy which base on miners which transport resources to Xenon processing plants (we already have several Xenon stations), then processed construction materials are transported by Xenon freighters to Xenon shipyard - if shipyard if well stocked it build Xenon patrols and invasion fleets. That way player can "defeat Xenons" which is not possible with "magical spawns"

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Post by vkerinav » Thu, 2. Feb 17, 01:58

mr.WHO wrote:Additionally the think part is also where I'd put the "Exploration". The exploration part of the X-Games always had this HUGE problem since X-BTF - once you expore whole space there is no more exploration, even if you start the new game you still in the same static space.

This is the part where "procedurally generated space" would shine. Something like the old "unfocussed Jump drive" sector, but on much bigger scale like whole system or even whole uncharted region of several systems which would change every game or even within the same game.
That way you could have carefuly man-made static "Core" space and procedurally/randomly generated "Fringe" space.
Ironically, this would have been an excellent idea for Rebirth; utilize the gate re-alignment. Why do they all have to connect to somewhere uncivilized? There must be a few sectors that haven't yet been corrupted by you questionable biological life-forms. Make exploring it part of a mission--and then you stumbled across the gate to _____. Even better--an encounter with an explorer that came through the other gate.

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Post by kyrah » Thu, 2. Feb 17, 11:12

100% agree with Mr.Who.

ES should focus on their "Think, Trade, Build, Fight".

And not waste massive development time on half baked features like landing on stations with no real purpose while the core mechanics are neglected.

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