Are there limits on how far a faction can expand?

[GCU Grey Area]

Have been having a lovely little war with my Boron friends against the Split & Xenon. Borons have claimed quite a lot of new territory: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0fxni00g ... rcwbp&dl=0

It was all going well until a couple of in-game days ago, but they now appear to have no further interest in building defence platforms to claim new sectors. Matrix #598 has been completely cleared & they could claim it any time they want. Rhak's Dominion X still has 3 Xenon stations & a handful of fighters, however presence of Xenon has not stopped them from attempting to build defence platforms in Xenon owned sectors before.

Beginning to wonder if there are strict limits on how far each faction can expand, either in terms of distance from their capital or perhaps number of sectors? Either way, it's been somewhat disheartening to be in the process of capturing Rhak's Dominion, only to find that my Boron friends don't want to go any further.

[Flippi]

I honestly don't fully get the whole Conquest mechanic either. In my games, TRI has consistently neutralised Faulty Logic I, but they refuse to build there at all (despite it being a former Paranid System). Same thing is true for Atiya's Misfortune with ANT. In my last game, I destroyed the Xenon in that corner relatively early on, yet no faction ever decided to build there. I assume that with Atiya's Misfortune, I have to do the Terraforming project first.

I know Heretic's End normally doesn't get settled (at least from my experiences), same with Nopileos Fortune (unless Tempest is active in the game), but other Sectors should be free to go.

ARG refuses to settle in Tharka's Cascade, probably because they have no direct connection to it (HAT does). And ZYA most of the time is too busy with getting overrun to actually settle new sectors. Maybe I have issues because of the Dynamic wars mod? But then again, I didn't have any vastly different experiences with my Vanilla game time either.

At least the Teladi for one of the few times ever, managed to neutralise Matrix #451 and they even are building a defence station there. Probably won't last long though.

[Alan Phipps]

In a vanilla X4 game a few years and versions ago, HOP took over nearly every central west Argon area sector including Argon Prime and the Black Hole ones (XEN attacks had assisted with this). I haven't had that with any restart since though.

ZYA and TEL do seem inclined to do a bit of expansion if you help them out with the Xenon counter-expansions.

[GCU Grey Area]

I know Heretic's End normally doesn't get settled (at least from my experiences)...

Heretic's End can be claimed by any faction which borders it...

Spoiler

Show

To enable this to occur the player must claim the sector by building an admin module, then relinquish control by deconstructing it. This essentially fires the starting gun for a land grab by one of the neighbouring factions, normally Borons, Argons & either ZYA/RHA Split or Xenon depending on which faction controls Wretched Skies V.

[Flippi]

Heretic's End can be claimed by any faction which borders it...

Yeah, I thought so as much after seeing your screenshot in the OP.

There is, or was, also another way of getting other factions to claim Heretic's End. But it may or may not be mod related (or because it happened on an older game version if I remember right). In one game, HAT got kicked out of Hatikvah's Choice (Xenon related), and started building in Heretic's End and ended up claiming it. Same thing happened to Frontier's Edge and Nopileos' Fortune once when CAB started building there at the start of the game. Since 6.2, I haven't seen that happening though. CAB doesn't seem to build shipyards and wharfs any more, at least from what I have seen. Could also be because the Split sectors are notoriously bad in terms of economy and resources.

ZYA and TEL do seem inclined to do a bit of expansion if you help them out with the Xenon counter-expansions.

TEL just claimed Matrix #451 all on their own (rather unusual from my experience), while Wretched Skies V is still neutral after I got TRI to declare war on ZYA (not that it matters, as Dynamic Wars makes sure that wars are happening at one point anyway, so no need for plot related reputation changes). So there seems to be a point where factions just stop expanding.

By the way: In 5.x I think, TEL and XEN would rush to colonise Turquoise Sea. That doesn't happen anymore since recent patches. The Xenon in Scale Plate Green at all are rather calm since that time.

[Pesanur]

In a vanilla X4 game a few years and versions ago, HOP took over nearly every central west Argon area sector including Argon Prime and the Black Hole ones (XEN attacks had assisted with this). I haven't had that with any restart since though.

ZYA and TEL do seem inclined to do a bit of expansion if you help them out with the Xenon counter-expansions.

In my current game, the HOP expanded to Freedom Reach, but isn't showing any interest into expanding any further. They don0t ever try to take Pious Mysts II, don't even to retake Faulty Logic after I abandoned it, the previously conquered, it but that I'm take over form them to prevent them to also take Atiyah Miss Fortune before I'm terraform it. Many many game hours have passed since I'm dismantled my defence station in Faulty Logic and the HOP is fully ignoring the sector.

[GCU Grey Area]

Bit more info to add to initial post. Just realised it's been quite a long time since the Borons attempted to build a defence platform in Tharka's Cascade XV. At the time they were in the process of claiming Rhy's Defiance & Rhak's Dominion I, it appeared they were really quite keen to claim Tharka's too. Made numerous attempts, none of which lasted long. However, since those other two sectors were claimed they appear to have completely stopped doing this. Think this may disprove the hypothesis that distance from Kingdom End is the limiting faction (Rhy's & Rhak's I are both further away). Suspect that means that there is a limit on the number of sectors a faction can claim, which frankly I don't much like.

Think I'm going to try pulling my forces out of Family Zhin & let the Xenon retake everything up to Rhy's Defiance. If I'm right this will free up enough 'sector capture quota' (for want of a better term) so the Borons can complete their conquest of Rhak's Dominion, before finally helping them to claim Family Zhin all over again so all their sectors are reconnected. Bloody ridiculous way to have to fight a war.

[Zloth2]

When you say they aren't interested in building defense stations, do you mean building them themselves or asking you to build them? If you can get them to request any sort of station in a sector, you can stick an admin module on it, build it, and the sector will become theirs when the mission completes.

[GCU Grey Area]

When you say they aren't interested in building defense stations, do you mean building them themselves or asking you to build them? If you can get them to request any sort of station in a sector, you can stick an admin module on it, build it, and the sector will become theirs when the mission completes.

Building for themselves. With a few exceptions (none of which I think are relevant in this context) factions don't generally offer build missions outside their own territory. In this particular case was watching out for the Borons to place a building site in enemy or neutral sectors on their borders. Then I'd set a fleet to Protect Position near it, arrange a convoy of L freighters to deliver all the necessary construction materials & wait for it to be build. I'd then clear out any competing claims to the sector.

This is how I usually play X4. Pick a faction I want to help (usually based on the origin of the character in each start) then do what I can to help them prosper, fight against their enemies alongside them & conquer new territory, usually with an overall victory condition I've set for myself at the start. In this case that victory condition is "Polypheides' Dominion", because clearly all those angry Split in the region need to be confined to their planets (under the tentacle of benevolent Boron overlords) & stripped of all their space-based assets until they can learn how to be civilised Commonwealth citizens.

Have been keeping an eye out for Boron build missions in the region - that's why they now own a shipyard in Family Nhuut. Although technically it's just a simple Bofu factory, with a few minor additions: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/215aphv7 ... yzntj&dl=0

[jlehtone]

... technically it's just a simple Bofu factory, with a few minor additions ...

I used to do that too, but at some point some factions ceased to complete the plots. I have the required bits on the top of the list and additions later. Thus the missions do complete "early" and the new NPC owners then pay for build resources for the additions. Until they didn't; the plan for additions seemed to vanish. My guess was that faction could have some limit/quota on station (modules). If they had hit that limit, then they could not build any more. Xenon in 3.xx seemed to have the same issue of not building after they had expanded quite a lot (but they have also logistics issues).

Then again, ANT has built "a lot" on their own (not embellished plots via missions). At first they were reluctant to occupy unclaimed sectors for a good while (and many game versions) but finally did kick in "pioneer mode". They now claim all Terran sectors, save Earth, Moon, and Oort Cloud. Only one or two small stations per sector though. Some 20+ big hex total.


Obvious candidates are: a limit on hexes, a limit on stations, and a limit on when faction logic is in expansion mode.

[GCU Grey Area]

... technically it's just a simple Bofu factory, with a few minor additions ...

I used to do that too, but at some point some factions ceased to complete the plots. I have the required bits on the top of the list and additions later. Thus the missions do complete "early" and the new NPC owners then pay for build resources for the additions. Until they didn't; the plan for additions seemed to vanish. My guess was that faction could have some limit/quota on station (modules). If they had hit that limit, then they could not build any more. Xenon in 3.xx seemed to have the same issue of not building after they had expanded quite a lot (but they have also logistics issues).

I tend to put one of the mission critical modules (in this case the Bofu) right at the end of the build queue. Prefer to maintain control over the project until it's finished, even if that means forgoing potential profits from selling building materials. Prefer to use my own builder ships for these missions (so my service crew get experience) & if the situation changes (perhaps a shipyard is no longer as desirable in that location) I may want to amend the project to get it to finish faster. If the station was taken over by the faction early in the build process suspect my builder ship would be effectively locked in place until absolutely everything's been built.

Then again, ANT has built "a lot" on their own (not embellished plots via missions). At first they were reluctant to occupy unclaimed sectors for a good while (and many game versions) but finally did kick in "pioneer mode". They now claim all Terran sectors, save Earth, Moon, and Oort Cloud. Only one or two small stations per sector though. Some 20+ big hex total.

Interesting that they've been able to claim that much territory. My ANT have been less ambitious: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xnu98lwu ... qfb9e&dl=0
Although frankly that entire corner of the map's a bit of a mess. Did not want to intervene militarily in the region since the Terrans are one of the few factions to offer anti-Xenon missions, so have been fighting a proxy war by constructing Shipyard Supply Bases to supply ARG & ANT shipyards & wharves. Has not quite gone to plan so may soon have to play a more active role in the war I most definitely didn't start quite deliberately...

Obvious candidates are: a limit on hexes, a limit on stations, and a limit on when faction logic is in expansion mode.

Update from the front line. Seems Boron high command finally woke up from their nap & have now dropped defence platform building sites in both Rhak's Dominion X & Matrix #598, which I am currently supplying. Change appears to correlate with Family Zhin gaining 'contested' status after I withdrew my forces. Xenon currently have an operational (albeit only half-finished) defence platform near the south gate & building sites for a wharf & factory elsewhere in the sector. Can't establish definitively that this was the trigger for those new Boron defence platforms (correlation does not necessarily indicate causation), but the timing's damn suspicious after several in-game days of inactivity.

[jlehtone]

I would not call it "ambition". "Opportunistic", perhaps.
I had a "slight dispute" with Terran that did open up places: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nezxb6 ... sp=sharing
Eventually, the ANT did see the "free for taking" corners: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CyxL4M ... sp=sharing
There were 122 ingame hours between those maps. Mars was unclaimed already 75 hours before the first picture and ANT had Asteroid Belt (undisputed) more than 200 hours before the first picture.

[Axeface]

I really would like to know the answer to this. It's inexplicable at times - for example in my game the boron didnt expand into wretched skies for like 10 game days, then suddenly within about 12 game hours they expanded into 5 sectors, taking litany of fury too. They pushed into family zhin and tried to build several times, but now have given up - although I think they have stopped there because the argon are also trying, perhaps the argon getting a station built at some point has 'tagged' it, even though the split have since destroyed all argon admin modules there.
Another example of weirdness is the xenon with a half-built station in turquoise sea for 12 (yes 12) game days. They are unopposed and the station just sits there waiting for resources and its not like they dont have S ships in the vicinity.

[GCU Grey Area]

I really would like to know the answer to this.

Yep, same here - precisely why I started this thread. Was really hoping someone might know more about this than me. Frankly I'm baffled.

Anyway, more news from the front. Now Boron high command have apparently recovered from their coma they're chucking defence platforms around like confetti. They've recently built one platform in Matrix #598, two in Rhak's Dominion X & another in Rhak's Dominion IV. They've also sent ships into the latter sector & have started attacking major RHA stations; shipyard & equipment dock are already gone. Suspect this may disprove the sector quota hypothesis, or at least indicate it's higher than I thought at the time the Boron invasion stalled. Current map of the region: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/12r2o19v ... b0iaz&dl=0

Only slight wrinkle in the resumption of the BOR v RHA conflict is that (due to the lengthy pause) TEL managed to defeat the Xenon in Open Market & Rhak's IV. That would be great except that TEL then proceeded to build their own stations in Rhak's IV, including a pair of defence platforms. Apparently that now means I now can't attack RHA stations without trashing my TEL rep. Presumably the contested status means TEL view RHA as important customers who shouldn't be shot at. Going to wait & see what happens when the last RHA station which exerts control over the sector has been demolished by BOR forces - if the sector turns Boron blue that's fine, if not may have to bring in the Conflict Resolution (Hydra with multiple torp launchers) to see what can be done about the admin modules on those TEL defence platforms...

[EDIT: Think I've worked out what was going on with the wierd TEL rep loss in an RHA sector. Probably nothing to do with contested sector status. Recent 7.0 beta added a bit of hull damage to Boron Ion Net Launcher turret. Suspect that turret was smashing construction drones owned by a TEL Albatross building the station, hence the sudden arrival of a host of unauthorised attack messages.]

By the way, Borons have also resumed trying to build a defence platform in Tharka's. After the Rhak's IV situation is resolved I'm thinking I may want to help with that - perhaps the Borons might want to sweep through Tharka's, Matrix #79B & Savage Spur to attack the flank of the Terran advance into ANT/ARG territory. Overall goal: apply the benevolent betentacled overlord treatment to the Terrans - confine them to their own planet, until they've had a really long think about all the terrible things they've done (make the Xenon, herd them into the gate network then blow up the gate behind them, thus turning a purely Terran issue into everyone else's problem).

[PV_]

I really would like to know the answer to this. It's inexplicable at times - for example in my game the boron didnt expand into wretched skies for like 10 game days, then suddenly within about 12 game hours they expanded into 5 sectors, taking litany of fury too. They pushed into family zhin and tried to build several times, but now have given up - although I think they have stopped there because the argon are also trying, perhaps the argon getting a station built at some point has 'tagged' it, even though the split have since destroyed all argon admin modules there.

Good to hear. My Borons and Splits still play autistic for like 1-2 weeks. Their fleets look after appropriate gates (Heretic's end <-> Wretched skies) but no order to invade. Absolutely boring and worthless picture...

Another example of weirdness is the xenon with a half-built station in turquoise sea for 12 (yes 12) game days. They are unopposed and the station just sits there waiting for resources and its not like they dont have S ships in the vicinity.

I'm quite sure the issue comes from Xenon Shipyard/Wharf storage. AI only supply plots when nearest ship production facilities are overstocked. And since ships are almost always in production what consume resources Xenon tend to never supply a lot of plots. Usually Ore is scarce and that is what their M transports do not bring to constriction site.
At least that is the outcome I see observing storage filling rate and plot completion. In v5 it was possible to directly supply plots by magnetizing resources into it. Now... No idea whose was the brilliant idea to not apply logistics fix and remove the only way to fix it by player means.
I've tried different manipulations to encourage AI in finishing their foundations, bot no luck yet. Here is an example: I've destroyed few containers at construction storage with Silicon, waited when transport bring more and fulfilled it's storage with Ore. Smart? No. Xenon S went to the Wharf and unloaded stuff 2 sectors away while having damn plot in dire Ore need within spitting distance.
Have a few more workarounds in mind, quite time consuming though...