X4 VR & Head Tracking control capability?

[Sandalpocalypse]

It doesn't negate that VR has severe performance concerns...

Elite:Dangerous only ever has one station on the screen at one time. X4 could have multiple stations, plus capital ships, plus lots of little ships, plus an asteroid belt, plus NPC models walking around, all at the same time and then double-rendered at high fps. I have nothing against VR games at all, but I don't want X4 compromised because of it.

[Ketraar]

Just to be clear, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing, moderator or not.

But my point was exactly that of performance, may worded it unclear, but comparing elite with XR/X4 is just wrong, for the reasons Sandalpocalypse described.

Apples and oranges and all that.

MFG

Ketraar

[Caldazar]

It doesn't negate that VR has severe performance concerns...

Elite:Dangerous only ever has one station on the screen at one time. X4 could have multiple stations, plus capital ships, plus lots of little ships, plus an asteroid belt, plus NPC models walking around, all at the same time and then double-rendered at high fps. I have nothing against VR games at all, but I don't want X4 compromised because of it.

And all the other ships and stations in the universe. The OOS calculations are simplified but they still take time. XR:VR has fewer stations that XR.

Also, graphic settings can be lowered to increase FPS. You don't have that option with the simulation.

[Silla]

Will X4 have VR and head tracking capabilities?

Why not go with a facetracking software instead .. . very cheap and works almost just as well. You only need a decent webcam for this ...

[Koboldx]

It doesn't negate that VR has severe performance concerns...

Elite:Dangerous only ever has one station on the screen at one time. X4 could have multiple stations, plus capital ships, plus lots of little ships, plus an asteroid belt

False information, here is a video from ED with a station and 2 Kapital Ships and NPC Ships docking...
https://youtu.be/pyrYh2dhsC8

And there are even now Asteroid Belt Station.

plus NPC models walking around, all at the same time and then double-rendered at high fps. I have nothing against VR games at all, but I don't want X4 compromised because of it.

I think you got alot against VR, cause there is no compromised for VR... thats total wrong, if someone want to play with low graphic settings, doesnt mean you have to use the same settings, i think your post is selfish.

But X is NOT Elite and if all you want is fly in empty space then you are probably set with elite.

Okay empty space like this?
https://youtu.be/Mt67MLcTDpA?t=173

The point is that many player like X games for the economy simulation, or the building aspect. None of which are enhance by VR but would require to be balanced (aka stripped) to work or allow the frame rates that VR requires.

Almost everything in this presetation doesnt make sense, people are playing XR-VR with the default XR universe and they love it:

https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=395702

I think the only reason for egosoft is to release a seperated version to get payed twice, the devs use the same engine and the same API and im pretty sure it would be running okay for people with Highend PC's.

Just to get this clear, everyone who play x4 in future in 4k with 60fps got no problems to play it in VR with 90fps even with higher resolution than the VR native res and the native resolution is only 2140x1080 at this moment.

As long egosoft would do his job and optimise their game for the newest CPUs and GPUs, everyone should be fine to play it in a decent framerate... and if not there are other features like Asynchron Time Warp and Asynchron Space Warp, if his PC's cant handle it.

I saw in the presentation at gamescom no true reason why egosoft dont get x4 VR ready... and if its the man power problem, i dont know why egosoft waste time for some shaders for the background Planets and still got this really low polygon NPC's.

[Sandalpocalypse]

oh sorry forgot to put in a disclaimer for the literally 0.2% of stations that have a capital ship dock, mb

[Reprisal]

Will X4 have VR and head tracking capabilities?

Why not go with a facetracking software instead .. . very cheap and works almost just as well. You only need a decent webcam for this ...

Are you saying that facetracking with a webcam and playing on a flatscreen is the same as VR? That's just not true.

Hopefully the work Egosoft has done on X Rebirth VR will help with getting the tech into X4. A true X game with VR is the killer app that VR needs.

[rp198419]

I will never purchase X4 if it doesn't support VR.

In fact, I don't buy any flat-screen games now; there is no point.

After the incredible experience of VR (inclusing XRebirth VR (Oculus) which is great), I have no interest in games that use antique, 20th century visualisation media.

Of course, if it's too much trouble trouble for EgoSoft, well...

[Silla]

Im not saying it's the same as VR but it is a solution to headtracking hardware.

Besides that VR won't be possible for X4 for the first version as you need a game to be developed for VR to begin with to go VR ..but this has been explained before. A game that can run 60fps fine versus a game that needs 200fps you will just limit the possibilities for the 60fps version. Asking for VR is like asking for a console port on a less powerful system due to output restrictions... that is why you will have to wait for the port as VR version.

[rp198419]

But X is NOT Elite and if all you want is fly in empty space then you are probably set with elite. The point is that many player like X games for the economy simulation, or the building aspect. None of which are enhance by VR but would require to be balanced (aka stripped) to work or allow the frame rates that VR requires.

This is easy to understand and the developer said its the better choice for the reasons presented. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

MFG

Ketraar

If you had ever flown around a massive space station that you had just finished building ir get up close and personal to the drones doing their work, you would truly appreciate the scale of it all.

And I totally disagree with you; the economic sim and the building aspect are BOTH enhanced by VR. I spend hours in XRVR flying around watching ships delivering to my stations, waiting for them to arrive or watching the plate foundry process from ore crushing to container packaging, all in massive, 3D, real-life scale.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...and if you have tried it and still say VR does not enhance the building and economic aspects, I feel sorry for you.

Enjoy your prehistoric television screen...but let the rest of us enjoy X4 in VR.

[Koboldx]

Besides that VR won't be possible for X4 for the first version as you need a game to be developed for VR to begin with to go VR ..but this has been explained before. A game that can run 60fps fine versus a game that needs 200fps you will just limit the possibilities for the 60fps version. Asking for VR is like asking for a console port on a less powerful system due to output restrictions... that is why you will have to wait for the port as VR version.

You repead was bernd told us at the presentation from gamescom but its a lie, cause VR need only 90fps (45fps for Asynchronous Spacewarp) and not 200fps and the developer could get some graphics options for the VR version, to disable some effects its not magic... and btw x-rebirth was a console port, they got a deal with microsoft to release it for xbox, to bad it never comes out to xbox after the bad release.
And this is why we got stupid gamepad controlls there and why u see in x4 now this low poly character modells everywhere.

I said already, people are playing the non-VR version in VR now, cause there is no need for a seperate version.

[rp198419]

And then there's also the question after the market saturation of VR, which is still rather low.

From what I can see, indications are that VR as we currently know it, will remain a small fringe market because of cost and cumbersome hardware among other reasons. Certainly not worth putting precious development resources into initially.

Not true. If it were, sales would have stagnated, which they have not.

Indications are, in fact, that market share will increase significantly over the next 3 years:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paullamkin ... b0bd1c79e6

VR costs have dropped 20% in the last year alone and, to be brutally honest, if you are trying to run today's games on an old machine, you need to wake up to the fact that time - and tech - moves on.

So, in my opinion, you are wrong on every count.

[rp198419]

Will X4 have VR and head tracking capabilities?

Why not go with a facetracking software instead .. . very cheap and works almost just as well. You only need a decent webcam for this ...

Because the experience in VR is TOTALLY different to face-tracking in 2D.

If you had tried both, you would not say that they are the same.

[Silla]

Dude I'm aware that this is not the same... but let's get real here VR is still quite expensive and not everyone is as rich as you. Just because you can afford it doesn't mean the reality of consumer marked did change. And the reality is that VR is still to expensive for most consumers playing games of which many don't earn their own money yet or they don't earn enough to think they have to buy VR googles and needed pc hardware ... X4 will most likely become VR at some point but not when it is first released, so wait until then if you need it to be in VR.

[Silla]

Besides that VR won't be possible for X4 for the first version as you need a game to be developed for VR to begin with to go VR ..but this has been explained before. A game that can run 60fps fine versus a game that needs 200fps you will just limit the possibilities for the 60fps version. Asking for VR is like asking for a console port on a less powerful system due to output restrictions... that is why you will have to wait for the port as VR version.

You repead was bernd told us at the presentation from gamescom but its a lie, cause VR need only 90fps (45fps for Asynchronous Spacewarp) and not 200fps and the developer could get some graphics options for the VR version, to disable some effects its not magic... and btw x-rebirth was a console port, they got a deal with microsoft to release it for xbox, to bad it never comes out to xbox after the bad release.
And this is why we got stupid gamepad controlls there and why u see in x4 now this low poly character modells everywhere.

I said already, people are playing the non-VR version in VR now, cause there is no need for a seperate version.

Im not an expert on this but those 90 fps are considered for both eyes needed to prevent motion thickness, right? ...hence you get either double the pixels or double the framerate. That is where your 200 fps are coming from if you consider a backup of additional 10 fps. The ASW is an interprolation technique that is only supposed to reduce the problem of drops in framerates and can introduce artifacts on display, it makes it possible to run on lower specs but it is neither the perfect solution nor is it platform independent as ASW is an implementation for Oculus originally and I'm not sure how well the Vive does it if at all.... so i think Bernd is not lying here about the needed specification when it comes to an optimized VR experience that will work on many systems good enough. Besides that why would he lie about this ... i think he will know more about these technicalities than we do and if it is so easy to make the normal game run on VR...just do it than.


PS. This claim of XR being originally a console port and them having a contract with Microsoft... would need something more than just assumptions. How about a copy of that contract ? Again it makes no sense to me ... and even if it did ...what has it do with anything, it is their game and they can do what they want with it. The only thing that I want is a proper game that works well on one platform first and that is what they said they are going to do... and as most consumers and fans are using a desktop PC for now ... it should be done well on PC first. I really don't get what you try to achieve.

[CBJ]

You repead was bernd told us at the presentation from gamescom but its a lie, cause VR need only 90fps (45fps for Asynchronous Spacewarp) and not 200fps and the developer could get some graphics options for the VR version, to disable some effects its not magic... and btw x-rebirth was a console port, they got a deal with microsoft to release it for xbox, to bad it never comes out to xbox after the bad release.
And this is why we got stupid gamepad controlls there and why u see in x4 now this low poly character modells everywhere.

I said already, people are playing the non-VR version in VR now, cause there is no need for a seperate version.

So many false accusations and misunderstandings in one post!

1. What Bernd said in the presentation is absolutely true. In order to achieve the consistently high framerates required for VR, we had to make significant changes to the game universe to reduce the number of ships and stations, and also to the UI to make it pleasant to use in 3D. Your assertion that adding a few graphics settings would solve the framerate problem suggests that you have completely misunderstood what the issue really is. In most situations, the framerate in X-series games is much more dependent on the universe simulation than the graphics settings. You can't just "dial down" the simulation, and for non-VR players (who constitute the vast majority of our player base) to have the size and depth of their game universe being determined by VR framerate requirements would be completely unacceptable, both to them and to us.

2. Continuing to circulate the completely false rumour that XR was a console port does not make it any less false, and embellishing it with even more ridiculous nonsense about a "deal with Microsoft" doesn't change that. Bernd acknowledged in the presentation that the heavy focus on gamepad support early on (which was a priority at the time because it was being heavily pushed by Steam as part of their Big Picture concept) was a mistake, and one that we've already worked to rectify, at least partially, in various XR updates.

3. Being able to "run" a non-VR game while wearing a VR headset is a very long way from actually having a releasable game that fully supports VR and is comfortable to play. If you have even the slightest experience of VR games, you will know that having menus in screen space rather than world space can be disorientating and immersion-breaking, and that's just one of a number of examples. And as already explained, framerate is very much an issue here, and not one that can be solved by changing a few settings or throwing some more GPU cycles at the problem.

4. Suggesting that we are just making a separate VR version for the money is, quite frankly, absurd. The size of the current market for VR doesn't even come close to justifying the cost of developing for it.

Finally, I advise you to be very careful about insulting people by accusing them of being liars. The forum rules on insults are clear, and they apply to insults directed at developers as well as other forum members.

[Ketraar]

If you had ever flown around a massive space station that you had just finished building ir get up close and personal to the drones doing their work, you would truly appreciate the scale of it all.

No one suggested it was not a good experience to FLY in VR. Not sure what your point is, you dont need to convince of the powers of immersion of VR, I'm aware of them.

And I totally disagree with you; the economic sim and the building aspect are BOTH enhanced by VR. I spend hours in XRVR flying around watching ships delivering to my stations, waiting for them to arrive or watching the plate foundry process from ore crushing to container packaging, all in massive, 3D, real-life scale.

Sorry but you make no sense. Watching ships fly by and stations being built is NOT the economic sim or building aspect of the game. We have already established the flying bit and its immersion, finding deals, min/max profits is NOT enhanced by VR at all. Which is the part that would need striping the most for VR as its also the less important for it, it "hurts" players that have their play style focusses on those game mechanics.

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it...and if you have tried it and still say VR does not enhance the building and economic aspects, I feel sorry for you.

You dont need to feel sorry, my ability to form opinions is pretty good, for example I really dislike excrements even though I have never tried it.

Enjoy your prehistoric television screen...but let the rest of us enjoy X4 in VR.

Are we being entitled much? I suggest a descent from that high horse of yours, one can get hurt badly when falling from it.

MFG

Ketraar

[Koboldx]

So many false accusations and misunderstandings in one post!

1. What Bernd said in the presentation is absolutely true.

Im not believe it, since what he said in the past about x-rebirth in presentation
with gamestar, to fool people that pathfinding wasnt working at the moment and
to hide all the big problems in the past, why should i/we someone like him, trust now?

In order to achieve the consistently high framerates required for VR, we had to make significant changes to the game universe to reduce the number of ships and stations, and also to the UI to make it pleasant to use in 3D.

I bought the Rift CV1 since day 1 and i know the UI need to get calibrate for the clearness in VR. But this doesnt mean, it cant be developed compatible to the TFT screen and this showed Project Cars and Elite Dangerous that is possible to develop the same game for both VR and non-VR users together.

It does make me angry to see how bernd said at gamescom that VR support would cut X4 for even the non VR Users. I still not agree with this statement and the mod supporters from X-R proofed that they can fix the Vanilla game with a modpack:
https://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=395702

They tweaked the old galaxy almost VR ready but egosoft cant?
I dont think it wont take long after X4 comes out to see some Traffic Reducing Mod or some other stuff like this for better fps.

Where is the problem to set a button in graphicsettings about Advanced Traffic?
I dont think its a game changer to remove or reduce the traffic around a station for better FPS.

Your assertion that adding a few graphics settings would solve the framerate problem suggests that you have completely misunderstood what the issue really is. In most situations, the framerate in X-series games is much more dependent on the universe simulation than the graphics settings. You can't just "dial down" the simulation, and for non-VR players (who constitute the vast majority of our player base) to have the size and depth of their game universe being determined by VR framerate requirements would be completely unacceptable, both to them and to us.

So what you talking about is a CPU Bottleneck, right? And u think the coming Intel i7 CPU's in 2 Month or the next Icelake CPU cant handle this simulation?

6Cores and 4,5Ghz or with oc 5GHz on each core +HT isnt enough?

The biggest problem in VR is to 90% in all games the GPU, of course in simulation this changes... but i never though that OOS Simulation would be really though and demanding for CPU when X4 is going to release, that maybe is in more than a year... and who knows if X4 maybe delayed to 2019 and how many performance u got out of Vulcan (a low level API) at this time, i though u guys not done yet with the Vulcan optimisation.

Maybe im wrong here, i have to confess i dont know how demanding OOS calculation is and how much CPU Power its required to get stable 90FPS or still enough CPU Power for the GPU at the same time to hold the required 90fps.

2. Continuing to circulate the completely false rumour that XR was a console port does not make it any less false, and embellishing it with even more ridiculous nonsense about a "deal with Microsoft" doesn't change that. Bernd acknowledged in the presentation that the heavy focus on gamepad support early on (which was a priority at the time because it was being heavily pushed by Steam as part of their Big Picture concept) was a mistake, and one that we've already worked to rectify, at least partially, in various XR updates.

Okay im accept this and it was wrong from my side to call it out as a fact... i had should it called by its name, its just a rumour. Anyways this gamepad feature or how ever u want to call it, was a step back for almost every PC user, maybe some people who always play with consoles would like it.

3. Being able to "run" a non-VR game while wearing a VR headset is a very long way from actually having a releasable game that fully supports VR and is comfortable to play. If you have even the slightest experience of VR games, you will know that having menus in screen space rather than world space can be disorientating and immersion-breaking, and that's just one of a number of examples. And as already explained, framerate is very much an issue here, and not one that can be solved by changing a few settings or throwing some more GPU cycles at the problem.

Im already responsed about this at the top

4. Suggesting that we are just making a separate VR version for the money is, quite frankly, absurd. The size of the current market for VR doesn't even come close to justifying the cost of developing for it.

You dont release X4 tomorrow dont you? Even today i saw another price drop from Rift CV1 Bundle from 450€ to 399€ postet on reddit, if u guys think VR is small and will keep small, what did you people saw on the gamecom? TFT's everywhere, everyone ignored there VR, cause its not justifying?

If u guys want to ignore the future okay, but why released XR-VR 1Month ago?
If this market is really this small at the moment and not justifying. Even to know that the shitstorm about XR might/will related to XR-VR.

Doesnt make sense.

Even for me, i owned X2 on day one, X3 Reunion on day one even x-rebirth bought as preorder (i know i was dumb to trust egosoft in the past, i remember how i defend this company in every forum)... and i hated XR, not cause of the one ship stuff that was clear for my side, cause ground breaking pathfinding, this was a disaster, not sync language with npcs and and and, ongoing list everyone knows this, not neccessary to repeat this.

Im a really big scify fan and played Elite Dangerous almost 500 Hours in VR only since last year. But i dont think im buying XR-VR now or soon and im pretty sure alot other people think the same and they not forget how egosoft fooled us with XR.

Of course u guys lost costumer and if no one buy XR-VR doesnt mean the market is small, its because some people not forget this easy.

Finally, I advise you to be very careful about insulting people by accusing them of being liars. The forum rules on insults are clear, and they apply to developers as well as other forum members.

Understood

[Player]

4. Suggesting that we are just making a separate VR version for the money is, quite frankly, absurd. The size of the current market for VR doesn't even come close to justifying the cost of developing for it.

At least I hope that when the VR version of the game is released, a good discount will be given to those who already own the non-VR game.

Now that the VR is already arriving at 8K (upscaled) resolutions with much less SDE I finally decided to get one.

[Reprisal]

However, as VR requires major changes to the game interface, balancing as well as severe changes to ensure a proper framerate (read: performance), it's not viable to add VR support from the start.

There doesn't need to be severe changes to guarantee performance. I think you'll find that a lot of people with VR also have some seriously high end PCs to match.

The changes to X Rebirth VR were excessive, as much as I love it.