Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

[Slashman]

I like the idea of making the game more strategic, and I think removing jumpdrives and adding player teleportation is interesting.

But for the record, you can have deeper tactics and strategy with jumpdrives, they just have to be much more limited than they were in X3.

- You can do things like make jumping cost more fuel/make fuel more scarce, which adds more supply logistics to jumping.

- You can give jumping a cooldown, making jumping itself a limited resource within a given period of time.

- You can require some kind of infrastructure to facilitate jumping (e.g. beacons), deploying which would be strategic choices.

- You can have only certain types ships be able to jump, making ship choice and fleet composition more involved.

Or any combination of the above.

All of the above would also add programming complexity and likely limit the AI as well. Not to mention possibly need additional testing and balancing which is more resource-intensive.

[Graaf]

I like the idea of making the game more strategic, and I think removing jumpdrives and adding player teleportation is interesting.

But for the record, you can have deeper tactics and strategy with jumpdrives, they just have to be much more limited than they were in X3.

- You can do things like make jumping cost more fuel/make fuel more scarce, which adds more supply logistics to jumping.

- You can give jumping a cooldown, making jumping itself a limited resource within a given period of time.

- You can require some kind of infrastructure to facilitate jumping (e.g. beacons), deploying which would be strategic choices.

- You can have only certain types ships be able to jump, making ship choice and fleet composition more involved.

Or any combination of the above.

All of the above would also add programming complexity and likely limit the AI as well. Not to mention possibly need additional testing and balancing which is more resource-intensive.

But how can it limit the AI when the AI isn't using Jumpdrives? It's one of the reasons why they're overpowered.

[Ringkeeper]

hmm... why not both? Jumpdrives and highways?

Highways within the system, jumpdrives to get longer distances faster.

I didn't like the highway system in X:R but i liked the system in Freelancer.

You had Trade lanes within the system (you could enter it every couple kilometers) and you had jump gates between the systems.

You could even disrupt them to force other ships to leave the trade lane and then attack them. Or get attacked

[Général Grievous]

hmm... why not both? Jumpdrives and highways?

Highways within the system, jumpdrives to get longer distances faster.

I didn't like the highway system in X:R but i liked the system in Freelancer.

You had Trade lanes within the system (you could enter it every couple kilometers) and you had jump gates between the systems.

You could even disrupt them to force other ships to leave the trade lane and then attack them. Or get attacked

Or why don't just limit the jumpdrive range at 3 or 4 systems?
I agree it's too powerfull to alow player to jump from one point to the far edge of the map in 1sec. But if we limit the range of the jumpdrive, you have no more this problem.

[GCU Grey Area]

Or why don't just limit the jumpdrive range at 3 or 4 systems?
I agree it's too powerfull to alow player to jump from one point to the far edge of the map in 1sec. But if we limit the range of the jumpdrive, you have no more this problem.

No - there's still a problem. It would still trivialize strategic elements of the game. Can't think of a single faction in X3 which controlled sufficient contiguous territory to prevent a jumpdrive with a range of 3-4 sectors from allowing a fleet to jump directly from outside the borders straight into core sectors. That means any pretense at defending the borders is utterly irrelevant - so no strategic depth to the game. Even a jumpdrive with a range of 0 (i.e. only to other gates in the same sector) would have this problem of making it trivially easy to avoid border defences - e.g. fly through gate, see hostile fleet, jump to far side of sector, fly through gate... (repeat until you get to wherever you wanted to go without engaging the enemy at any point).

[sd_jasper]

Or why don't just limit the jumpdrive range at 3 or 4 systems?
I agree it's too powerfull to alow player to jump from one point to the far edge of the map in 1sec. But if we limit the range of the jumpdrive, you have no more this problem.

Remember the map and layout of the universe is very different from the old gird of boxes. We don't know enough about the new map, but using X Rebirth as an example, you can get from any system to any other by passing through no more than 3 gates.

The base+DLC of XR is "only" 8 Systems. These systems have a total of 25 sectors which have nearly 200 zones. The systems are linked by 18 gates IIRC, (9 linked pairs), which means that there are multiple paths from to/from most Systems. So, such a limit would still allow jumping "anywhere".

I'm not sure if X4's map will have the same designations, but based on the talk of Gates, Orbital Accelerators, and Highways, I'm going to guess we are still using the System-Sector-Zone. But really, till we get our hands on the game, I don't know if any of us can really know what impact removing (or adding back) the JD really will have.

[Simpelton]

Or why don't just limit the jumpdrive range at 3 or 4 systems?
I agree it's too powerfull to alow player to jump from one point to the far edge of the map in 1sec. But if we limit the range of the jumpdrive, you have no more this problem.

No - there's still a problem. It would still trivialize strategic elements of the game. Can't think of a single faction in X3 which controlled sufficient contiguous territory to prevent a jumpdrive with a range of 3-4 sectors from allowing a fleet to jump directly from outside the borders straight into core sectors. That means any pretense at defending the borders is utterly irrelevant - so no strategic depth to the game. Even a jumpdrive with a range of 0 (i.e. only to other gates in the same sector) would have this problem of making it trivially easy to avoid border defences - e.g. fly through gate, see hostile fleet, jump to far side of sector, fly through gate... (repeat until you get to wherever you wanted to go without engaging the enemy at any point).

What we need is jump inhibitors. Such that you could be allowed to jump into any sector that was friendly, but unfriendly sectors could block your access unless you sneak an illicit jump beacon into the sector.

I agree, if you've ticked off the Argons, being able to jump multiple destroyers straight into Argon Prime is ridiculous.

Right now the deployment of hostile ships in x3 makes no sense. They are way too spread out and if an enemy decided to concentrate their forces attack, there's nothing they could do about it. What factions should be doing is keeping scouts and satellite coverage in their sectors and jumping a massive heavily armed rapid response force into a sector to respond against any hostile incursion. Decisive strikes vs rapid response would be the order of battle.

On the other hand, if hostile factions could deny jump access to their territory, dispersion of force becomes the correct strategy because the greatest threat is then faced by the border territories which must then be guarded against both brute-force attacks and illicit jump beacon smuggling. All of a sudden the AI strategy actually makes some sense. Throw in the idea that attackers couldn't jump in and defenders possibly could, and the static borders you see in the world as it is make a lot more sense -- unless a faction has been critically weakened or their armed response force has already been crushed, such as happened to the Boron in the Split-Boron War, systems aren't going to change hands very often.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

On the other hand, if hostile factions could deny jump access to their territory...All of a sudden the AI strategy actually makes some sense. Throw in the idea that attackers couldn't jump in and defenders possibly could, and the static borders you see in the world as it is make a lot more sense -- unless a faction has been critically weakened or their armed response force has already been crushed, such as happened to the Boron in the Split-Boron War, systems aren't going to change hands very often.

You'd also need to prevent jumping out of hostile space to friendly space to prevent cheesing the system. I.e. arriving, focusing file on one ship, and jumping out after it pops before your ships pop.

[Simpelton]

I don't think so, if only because that's actually a very ticklish kind of operation with a very large opportunity for failure, and would depend very heavily on the enemy being within shooting distance of the gate as you moved back in in the conventional way. And on your ability to wear the enemy down faster than he can reinforce, in a tactical situation where time is not on your side.

Unless you're talking about being able to drop a jump beacon the first time you enter, and then jump to the beacon at will, it won't work at all, and if you do drop a jump beacon, then retreat with all or part of his force, your enemy has a very simple recourse. He can destroy the beacon and whatever you left to guard it before you arrive back in system.

In fact a failure to do so, either through inability to defeat your guards, or through incompetent neglegence, is probably a defeat condition in that scenario, and properly so (this I would not call "cheese" unless the enemy is not programmed to try and destroy unauthorized jump beacons, and even then is that cheese or bad programming?).

Basically, if you're not jumping into hostile sectors, then the ability to jump out isn't a gamebreaker so much as a loss-prevention mechanism.

[Ringkeeper]

one think with jump drive: don't forget the fun/annoy factor.

Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.

If you need 1 hour to fly there you can't play much "fun" stuff if your time is limited (which normaly is if you have family/work/school/friends etc).

Not to talk about trade options ... uh, they are out of ore and i have full storage ... fly, fly, fly, oh, someone was faster, cause i needed 1h.

[linolafett]

one think with jump drive: don't forget the fun/annoy factor.

Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.

If you need 1 hour to fly there you can't play much "fun" stuff if your time is limited (which normaly is if you have family/work/school/friends etc).

Not to talk about trade options ... uh, they are out of ore and i have full storage ... fly, fly, fly, oh, someone was faster, cause i needed 1h.

You will not need to fly for an hour straight. Thats what the travel drive is good for. An argument for the highways, too.

Trades are reserved for you already in space (if you have planned it) no npc will then take away your deal. Like in Rebirth.

[MrFiction]

Highways can be useful if done properly. The only place I liked them was in HoL where it made sense. A big problem with the highways is the fake traffic spawning causing constant bouncing and ejecting from the highway.

[gbjbaanb]

I agree, if you've ticked off the Argons, being able to jump multiple destroyers straight into Argon Prime is ridiculous.

Right now the deployment of hostile ships in x3 makes no sense. They are way too spread out and if an enemy decided to concentrate their forces attack, there's nothing they could do about it. What factions should be doing is keeping scouts and satellite coverage in their sectors and jumping a massive heavily armed rapid response force into a sector to respond against any hostile incursion. Decisive strikes vs rapid response would be the order of battle.

TBH the argument "but nothing stops you jumping a fleet into enemy sector" is stupid. If you tick off the Argons and jump a fleet in, the Argons will use their own fleets and static defences to blow you to little bits. That's what stop you doing it, not some artificial concept of jump drive badness.

[gbjbaanb]

I like the idea of making the game more strategic, and I think removing jumpdrives and adding player teleportation is interesting.

But for the record, you can have deeper tactics and strategy with jumpdrives, they just have to be much more limited than they were in X3.

- You can do things like make jumping cost more fuel/make fuel more scarce, which adds more supply logistics to jumping.

- You can give jumping a cooldown, making jumping itself a limited resource within a given period of time.

- You can require some kind of infrastructure to facilitate jumping (e.g. beacons), deploying which would be strategic choices.

- You can have only certain types ships be able to jump, making ship choice and fleet composition more involved.

Or any combination of the above.

All of the above would also add programming complexity and likely limit the AI as well. Not to mention possibly need additional testing and balancing which is more resource-intensive.

The programming cost of making a jump drive use more fuel is insignificant, as is upping the cost of buying a jumpdrive, or giving it a cooldown. Beacons are no different to the existing gates.

So all in all, it would make no difference to the game.

Making JDs expensive and/or use fuel, or even restricting what ships could mount them, or even specifying small JDs for corvettes and big but restricted ones for military would ensure NPCs and players could not mount a JD on a transport whilst letting them still be used for smaller supply and player ships. Though I have no problem with JDs on transports, the cost of them should mean that you wouldn't put them on because then your ROI would be astronomical and you'd make no profit.

[Graaf]

Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.

You will not need to fly for an hour straight. Thats what the travel drive is good for. An argument for the highways, too.

You still have to fly through 26 systems to get to your destination. That gives you an average of 138 sezuras for every system. If you're flying the stock Mercury at 100m/s, it would give you about 13,8km per system. That is barely enough distance to clear the gate. You won't even cross the smallest system with that limited amount of time. And I'm using the "small box" systems from X3 here.

The only way to cross that distance in an hour using an Ore Transporter is through the Xenon Hub.

Trades are reserved for you already in space (if you have planned it) no npc will then take away your deal. Like in Rebirth.

That doesn't make it better. Why would I want to fly 27 systems if I could possibly sell it in CBNW or CBSE? Because I made a deal and now I have to watch paint dry until it is completed?

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

gbjbaanb wrote:

If you tick off the Argons and jump a fleet in, the Argons will use their own fleets and static defences to blow you to little bits.

This may have been true of X3, but the Argons are no longer a single entity.
They no longer have race response fleets or any other magically produced defenders. Each faction will have fleets but they have to move to defend an enemy action, if they are destroyed then replacements have to be built. This requires resources and friendly shipyards.

So you want to attack an Argon faction, you can plan ahead and first of all cripple their supply lines. Reduce the resources actually getting to shipyards. This should work properly in X4 as everything is built out of the underlying economy.

Attack/cap their trade ships and steal those resources for yourself. Thus reducing their trade fleet and their ability to build more.

When you move to attack you know that the enemy cannot just jump in reinforcements. This gives you time to wage a war of attrition.

[Sparky Sparkycorp]

Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.

You will not need to fly for an hour straight. Thats what the travel drive is good for. An argument for the highways, too.

You still have to fly through 26 systems to get to your destination. That gives you an average of 138 sezuras for every system. If you're flying the stock Mercury at 100m/s, it would give you about 13,8km per system. That is barely enough distance to clear the gate. You won't even cross the smallest system with that limited amount of time. And I'm using the "small box" systems from X3 here.

The only way to cross that distance in an hour using an Ore Transporter is through the Xenon Hub.

You're also using the X3, which I'm pretty sure you understand makes the false comparison pointless.

Trades are reserved for you already in space (if you have planned it) no npc will then take away your deal. Like in Rebirth.

That doesn't make it better. Why would I want to fly 27 systems if I could possibly sell it in CBNW or CBSE? Because I made a deal and now I have to watch paint dry until it is completed?

It doesn't sound like you understand how Trade Deals works in XR. I'm sure you're aware of the free XR v4.00 demo, if you wanted to test your assumption.

[Simpelton]

gbjbaanb wrote:

If you tick off the Argons and jump a fleet in, the Argons will use their own fleets and static defences to blow you to little bits.

This may have been true of X3, but the Argons are no longer a single entity.
They no longer have race response fleets or any other magically produced defenders. Each faction will have fleets but they have to move to defend an enemy action, if they are destroyed then replacements have to be built. This requires resources and friendly shipyards.

So you want to attack an Argon faction, you can plan ahead and first of all cripple their supply lines. Reduce the resources actually getting to shipyards. This should work properly in X4 as everything is built out of the underlying economy.

Attack/cap their trade ships and steal those resources for yourself. Thus reducing their trade fleet and their ability to build more.

When you move to attack you know that the enemy cannot just jump in reinforcements. This gives you time to wage a war of attrition.

Which is all rendered meaningless if you can just drop a massive force into their key sectors and obliterate their shipyards one by one. Not that hard to do in X3, even with magical race response fleets. A horde of expendable fighters to keep the enemy fleet busy, and then enough bombers or missile frigates to reduce the shipyard in a couple volleys. Simple.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Simpelton wrote:

Which is all rendered meaningless if you can just drop a massive force into their key sectors and obliterate their shipyards one by one.

So first off this massive force has to be built and paid for. It has to come out of the underlying economy. Assuming you didn't just cheat them in.

So your going to need quite a large empire to do this, its going to take some time. Or your going to have to spend a lot of time capturing and refitting all of these vessels. Even then, they still need to be produced somewhere, so that's going to mean a lot of time and resources to build them.

Then there is no just drop a fleet into key sectors. You actually are going to have to fly there. Potentially flying through a lot of enemy territory to get there. On top of this stations can have some very powerful defenses of their own. Destroying one is not going to be easy.

I recall a thread in the X3 forums where someone documented their attempt to destroy one of the races. He built a massive fleet as you suggest, IIRC it did not end well.

[Graaf]

Imagine to fly f.e. from Kingdom End to Queen's Harbour... once maybe fun, twice not really, later just annoying.

You will not need to fly for an hour straight. Thats what the travel drive is good for. An argument for the highways, too.

You still have to fly through 26 systems to get to your destination. That gives you an average of 138 sezuras for every system. If you're flying the stock Mercury at 100m/s, it would give you about 13,8km per system. That is barely enough distance to clear the gate. You won't even cross the smallest system with that limited amount of time. And I'm using the "small box" systems from X3 here.

The only way to cross that distance in an hour using an Ore Transporter is through the Xenon Hub.

You're also using the X3, which I'm pretty sure you understand makes the false comparison pointless.

AFAIK both Kingdom End and Queen's Harbor are not part of Rebirth. The only things not properly place in the above quote's are "Travel Drive" and "Highways".
But are you telling us both of those make it able to transfer through a system within 138s?

Trades are reserved for you already in space (if you have planned it) no npc will then take away your deal. Like in Rebirth.

That doesn't make it better. Why would I want to fly 27 systems if I could possibly sell it in CBNW or CBSE? Because I made a deal and now I have to watch paint dry until it is completed?

It doesn't sound like you understand how Trade Deals works in XR. I'm sure you're aware of the free XR v4.00 demo, if you wanted to test your assumption.

No, I don't. But apparently it is too difficult for you to explain it to me.