Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

[Erqco]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

Like he said, YES YES AND YES. That minigame idea looks very good to me. I will fix the path finding that wasn't very good, I like the idea of the modular factories in Rebirth, the X3 system wasn't good.
I am wondering if Egosoft will be doing X4 or Rebirth 2, I can only wait and hope that they will make something fun.

[Vandragorax]

Wow this thread is still going? And getting rather off-topic...

[Honved]

On the one hand, flying across a huge sector was always boring in X3, even with SETA. You still had to keep an occasional eye out for anything in your way or capable of attacking you, and it got tedious. On the other hand, space is SUPPOSED to be big, and having it divided up into tiny sectors takes away the feel of vastness.

Rather than have massive "constructions" (highways) to make crossing larger sectors faster, twin rows (one in each direction) of "boosters", (vaguely like accelerators) that increase the speed of your ship significantly (which then bleeds off over the course of the next minute or so) between significant groups of stations would make more sense. You fly through one of the booster rings and your ship speed jumps up to 1000+, gradually slowing until you reach the next booster to bring it back up again. You can still steer in or out of the lane at any time, and there's plenty of space to maneuver clear of the "lane" for passing, as long as you get back in the lane by the time you reach the next booster. There are no "mass constructions" cluttering space, just rows of booster rings spaced a few thousand klicks apart.

That doesn't require "spaghetti" highways cluttering up your view of space, just a few rows of widely spaced dots in straigh lines between the various local clusters of stations and the jump gates. And PLEASE, don't overdo the traffic in the lanes. MOST of the traffic would and should be local, traveling directly between the various stations in thier small local cluster, with some going along the "highways" (booster lanes) from one local area to another in the same general region, and a few going all the way to the jump gates to access other regions.

Heavy traffic makes no sense, as that depicts a densely settled area with no danger and nothing left to explore. X3 was primarily semi-"wilderness", poorly mapped, some areas heavily contested or totally unsettled, with pirate enclaves not being cleared out regularly, and frequent incursions by both Xenon and Kha'ak.

[Varyah]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

Like he said, YES YES AND YES. That minigame idea looks very good to me.

I think minigames are almost always a terrible idea. It's fun to do them once or twice (e.g. solving a sudoku during one questline) or if they are completely optional and separated from the rest of the actual gameplay (e.g. Gwent in Witcher) such that you can engage when you feel like it. But if they are obligatory for some core gameplay feature it almost always get's annoying because minigames tend to interrupt the actual gameplay. It doesn't make sense to introduce a 30sec long shooter level to every boarding maneuver in a space sim where all you do is flying and commanding ships - unless the shooter thing is a larger part of the gameplay not only seen in the occasional boarding operation; of course then Egosoft would have to spend a few years developing an engaging shooter experience to add some real gameplay value.

[Tomonor]

I know I'm kind of late to chime in on this topic, and maybe this have been already said in the the previous 20 pages, but here I go:

In my opinion, the biggest flaw of the jumpdrive was that it was an instant travel method. You could have moved entire fleets in the blink of an eye, and that's what Egosoft also recognized.

And they did come up with a solution for it. However, I think they are still medicating it the wrong way; maybe it will work out, maybe not, I really don't know.

What I do know is that in previous X games, there was no sense of distance in the universe, only in a single sector/system. You could have jumped from Kingdom End to Omicron Lyrae in the same timespan than from Kingdom End to Argon Prime for example. There was no actual sense of travelling greater distances in the galaxy, and that's where the whole imbalance came from.

Now, I know that:
a, it was done this way because of a technical limitation, namely because of how the previous X games' engines were coded;
b, travelling in a warp tube really is a boring process. Greatest example is X Rebirth's highway system, which in fact was a sort of hyper tunnel similarly of how one imagines a wormhole. Now, imagine having to sit in that tunnel for maybe tens of minutes while there is literally nothing to do. That's realism for you.

I'm pretty sure it's too late to suggest groundbreaking ideas to Egosoft now that they have settled on this teleportation system. But if I were them, I wouldn't have eliminated the jumpdrive entirely. Especially since the jumpdrive was the driving force behind their first game that started the lore of our beloved universe. There must be a way to make it work.

[Erqco]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

Like he said, YES YES AND YES. That minigame idea looks very good to me.

I think minigames are almost always a terrible idea. It's fun to do them once or twice (e.g. solving a sudoku during one questline) or if they are completely optional and separated from the rest of the actual gameplay (e.g. Gwent in Witcher) such that you can engage when you feel like it. But if they are obligatory for some core gameplay feature it almost always get's annoying because minigames tend to interrupt the actual gameplay. It doesn't make sense to introduce a 30sec long shooter level to every boarding maneuver in a space sim where all you do is flying and commanding ships - unless the shooter thing is a larger part of the gameplay not only seen in the occasional boarding operation; of course then Egosoft would have to spend a few years developing an engaging shooter experience to add some real gameplay value.

Yeah!! you are right, it shouldn't be forced, only if the player want, if not let the marines fight alone, I think that is the problem with minigames, that they become repetitive and boring if you are forced to play them.

[Seanchaidh]

What I do know is that in previous X games, there was no sense of distance in the universe, only in a single sector/system. You could have jumped from Kingdom End to Omicron Lyrae in the same timespan than from Kingdom End to Argon Prime for example. There was no actual sense of travelling greater distances in the galaxy, and that's where the whole imbalance came from.

Mmmm... sort of. You could feel such extreme distances in the energy cell expenditure (not the price so much as the time it would take to replace/refuel).

[Général Grievous]

I think Egosoft may have got an incorrect impression. I bought X Rebirth had a quick look and went back to X3 TC, I bought the game to support Egosoft I suspect I was not alone. Its a game, it has to be fun, I am not that interested in the science or making it "realistic", if that means it gets boring. Highways are boring, lets be honest they are boring is real life why would you want that in a game? Even in TC I avoid the Terran sectors. Even big sectors get boring it takes too long to do anything. The best things about X3 (in my opinion) Jump drives, huge map with of lots of sectors, the freedom of the sandbox, boarding with marines, flying multiple ships. And the fact it is difficult. So the balance is to keep things moving, but still make it complicated. Personally I hate missiles and Area effect weapons. I like the fact i can repair my own ship (but it is painful) or pay to have it repaired, I have a choice. In my opinion the economy side is fun but only so you can build more / bigger ships. I am not really interested in wandering around stations, but would love to be able to join my marines boarding a ship. Now there would be a mini-game.

Like he said, YES YES AND YES. That minigame idea looks very good to me.

I think minigames are almost always a terrible idea. It's fun to do them once or twice (e.g. solving a sudoku during one questline) or if they are completely optional and separated from the rest of the actual gameplay (e.g. Gwent in Witcher) such that you can engage when you feel like it. But if they are obligatory for some core gameplay feature it almost always get's annoying because minigames tend to interrupt the actual gameplay. It doesn't make sense to introduce a 30sec long shooter level to every boarding maneuver in a space sim where all you do is flying and commanding ships - unless the shooter thing is a larger part of the gameplay not only seen in the occasional boarding operation; of course then Egosoft would have to spend a few years developing an engaging shooter experience to add some real gameplay value.

Yeah!! you are right, it shouldn't be forced, only if the player want, if not let the marines fight alone, I think that is the problem with minigames, that they become repetitive and boring if you are forced to play them.

Well, i don't understand all this argumentation about jumpdrive.
They had almost the right formula, but never the good one.

I think thay have to return to the basics. Nexus; The jupiter incident did it very well, and on a very realistic way.

1) A system must be a solar system. Nothing less, nothing more.
2) A sector is an area next to a planet, or an asteroid field, or a sun.
-> In a solar system, you move between sector with an "interplanetary engine". A sort of wormhole that goes stright ahead. (you have to target where you wanna go before start the travel). No highways.
Unless they are used like in X3 for the solar system. This way could be fine.

3) The X universe is composed of systems. Or solar system. this is the same. All systems are linked together with gates.
-> This system is good like it is.
-> If you want to add jumpdrives, it has to be extremely costly and very long to load. And maybe with a limited range per jump.

IMO, teleportation is not a good ideaI It is as powerfull as a jumpdrive. Uneless it works at low range.

[Mick Maidens]

Marine boarding is in itself a type of mini-game. I think it would be cool if you could join them (but maybe require some training). It should definitely be a choice though. Jump drives and gates supposedly use wormhole technology. the theory of wormholes say they connect a fold in space so could easily be instant, theoretically you should be able to step across. I think all they need to do is limit the number of sectors you can jump. I also think you should be able to exit a gate on either side like you can enter it. Though perhaps it should be random which side you come out.

[Varyah]

Marine boarding is in itself a type of mini-game. I think it would be cool if you could join them (but maybe require some training). It should definitely be a choice though.

I wouldn't say that marine boarding as it was in X3 is a minigame. It involved buying and training marines (just like you buy wares and upgrades endlessly as part of the usual gameplay), shooting the opposing vessel (usual gameplay mechanics) to cripple its defenses, and then just wait for it to be over. Similarly in X:R you had to shoot modules or do hacking missions, also typical gameplay elements found in other situations.

If you were to get into a shooter setting during boarding that would be completely different from any other gameplay element present. That makes it a minigame for me. And if it is only a tiny sequence during boarding you can't expect much development time put into this and most of the time this leads to something that isn't engaging and satisfying gameplay. I prefer Egosoft focusing on the main gameplay elements.

[Honved]

If you were to get into a shooter setting during boarding that would be completely different from any other gameplay element present. That makes it a minigame for me. And if it is only a tiny sequence during boarding you can't expect much development time put into this and most of the time this leads to something that isn't engaging and satisfying gameplay. I prefer Egosoft focusing on the main gameplay elements.

This is the heart of the problem. Such a feature would need to be done WELL, or else including it is worse than not having it. I doubt that Egosoft has any intention of creating a full-fledged FPS game, especially as a "mini-game" within their existing space series. Now, perhaps if they could LICENSE some Indy developer's half-way decent FPS to shoe-horn into it.......

Jump drives COULD be made usable in the game without making them totally overpowered, but only for an adjacent-system jump, and requiring most of your cargo hold for the energy cells. Most freighters should be able to carry sufficient E-Cells for additional jumps without resupply (with some cool-down time between jumps), but it would need to be a REALLY important reason to use them for that due to the cost of the E-Cells, and it's not like they'd be valuable combat assets when they arrived.

That would allow a reaction fleet to jump in to cover a neighboring sector, but not have the ability to jump back or go anywhere beyond that except at conventional speeds. It could also serve as an escape mechanism for ships that are heavily outmatched: fly in normally, and if it's too hot for you, get out of the kitchen. As long as you can't jump in and right back out again, it's FAR less game-breaking.

Technically, the player could still exploit that by jumping with a small capital ship plus a freighter, resupply the capital ship from the remaining E-cells in the freighter, and then make a second jump while the freighter flies home the slow way. By pre-placing freighters with E-cells in each sector along the way, you could create a "command circuit" to cross multiple sectors, but the freighters would be vulnerable to attack. It would also be expensive, and a bit more complicated to set up for in advance than simply jumping clear across the known universe in one bound as we have now in X3.

[Mick Maidens]

You can't leave Egosoft to their own devices, look what they come up with... Highways, Stopping us flying different ships, Aldrin, more highways, getting rid of the jumpdrive ! We definitely need to give them pointers based on their current ideas. Here are some more ideas. Pilots getting back in their ships after they bailed, missions that are actually traps for pirates. something to negate the over the top plasma burst weapon. Build in weaknesses like blind spots on capitals. Make the game save when you jump through a gate.

[Mick Maidens]

I see the suggestion on a one jump jumpdrive and i can't help feeling it would make the game all about the journey. i don't see why the jumpdrive is an issue. it allows the player to cherry pick. Once you are so far in the game pirate attacks are not an issue, all my factories have a defence force. the only reason i would jump to a sector would be to get involved in something, I do not think i would want to limit that ability and spend 20 minutes getting there rather than 30 seconds.

[sd_jasper]

I see the suggestion on a one jump jumpdrive and i can't help feeling it would make the game all about the journey. i don't see why the jumpdrive is an issue. it allows the player to cherry pick. Once you are so far in the game pirate attacks are not an issue, all my factories have a defence force. the only reason i would jump to a sector would be to get involved in something, I do not think i would want to limit that ability and spend 20 minutes getting there rather than 30 seconds.

Well, if all your factories have a defense force, you can just teleport into one of those ships.

[Mick Maidens]

sorry, you mis-understood i have no need to protect my factories. The most i may do is send another TM after the event to top up the defence force. And we are back to the difference between choosing to fly a ship and having to. Why is jumping from ship to ship with a teleporter an improvement over the jump drive?

[Varyah]

Why is jumping from ship to ship with a teleporter an improvement over the jump drive?

There is indeed a situational improvement: in previous games you could only jump to gates or beacons. If where you want to go is a situation involving one of your ships/stations you can teleport there and are immediately involved in the action.

The disadvantage is that it requires more time to set up: your freighters would ideally have a combat ship escort (to which you can teleport to defend said freighter). Jumping to a sector/zone requires that you sent a NPC controlled ship there first.

But after having seeded all relevant zones with suitable ships you can teleport to, it is better for the player since no beacon/jump gate requirement (jumping can eventually be simulated by positioning a set of your favorite ships at each gate or anywhere else for that matter). The only remaining 'disadvantage' is that you can't take cargo with you, which is only relevant for trading. But if trading is balanced to accommodate more local economies that is a non-issue as the only thing that changes are the distance considerations, distance between target station and nearest gate/beacon changes to actual distance between source and destination in the universe.

[Tomonor]

Maybe the best way would be to make it optional, like a switch in the settings menu, disabled by default. Then there would be no outcry like now, grumpy veteran players could still use it to their heart's extent, while keeping the original vision of Egosoft intact.

[Mick Maidens]

This just sounds like another cheat. lets not have jumpdrives instead lets magically appear right in the action. This is the same "solution" as the super-fast Aldrin ships, it's just dumbing down the game. We wouldn't want it to be difficult. It is all a balancing act. Get the balance right and the game is awesome, get it wrong and the game is pants. Why do egosoft insist on trying to make the game easier. It's not supposed to be easy. easy=boring

[MegaJohnny]

This just sounds like another cheat. lets not have jumpdrives instead lets magically appear right in the action. This is the same "solution" as the super-fast Aldrin ships, it's just dumbing down the game. We wouldn't want it to be difficult. It is all a balancing act. Get the balance right and the game is awesome, get it wrong and the game is pants. Why do egosoft insist on trying to make the game easier. It's not supposed to be easy. easy=boring

If teleporting will let you take human control of a ship, and jumpdrive will let you summon your best ships in 10 seconds, which makes the fight easier?

[Mick Maidens]

Except that is not the case. Teleporting puts you in the ship magically, no jumpdrive can do that. the best you can hope for is reasonably close. And lets be honest nobody actually tries to rescue a ship in distress, by the time you have been told it has either died or escaped. Anyway traders are cheap and you have loads of them. If you were mounting an attack it just means more grind getting everything in place, oh goody just what the game needs.