Jumpdrives got me into X3, highways just dropped me off XR, and we're legion

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Varyah
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Post by Varyah » Thu, 19. Jul 18, 20:36

Mick Maidens wrote:Why is jumping from ship to ship with a teleporter an improvement over the jump drive?
There is indeed a situational improvement: in previous games you could only jump to gates or beacons. If where you want to go is a situation involving one of your ships/stations you can teleport there and are immediately involved in the action.

The disadvantage is that it requires more time to set up: your freighters would ideally have a combat ship escort (to which you can teleport to defend said freighter). Jumping to a sector/zone requires that you sent a NPC controlled ship there first.

But after having seeded all relevant zones with suitable ships you can teleport to, it is better for the player since no beacon/jump gate requirement (jumping can eventually be simulated by positioning a set of your favorite ships at each gate or anywhere else for that matter). The only remaining 'disadvantage' is that you can't take cargo with you, which is only relevant for trading. But if trading is balanced to accommodate more local economies that is a non-issue as the only thing that changes are the distance considerations, distance between target station and nearest gate/beacon changes to actual distance between source and destination in the universe.

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Post by Tomonor » Thu, 19. Jul 18, 21:41

Maybe the best way would be to make it optional, like a switch in the settings menu, disabled by default. Then there would be no outcry like now, grumpy veteran players could still use it to their heart's extent, while keeping the original vision of Egosoft intact.

Mick Maidens
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Post by Mick Maidens » Thu, 19. Jul 18, 21:50

This just sounds like another cheat. lets not have jumpdrives instead lets magically appear right in the action. This is the same "solution" as the super-fast Aldrin ships, it's just dumbing down the game. We wouldn't want it to be difficult. It is all a balancing act. Get the balance right and the game is awesome, get it wrong and the game is pants. Why do egosoft insist on trying to make the game easier. It's not supposed to be easy. easy=boring

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MegaJohnny
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Post by MegaJohnny » Thu, 19. Jul 18, 22:50

Mick Maidens wrote:This just sounds like another cheat. lets not have jumpdrives instead lets magically appear right in the action. This is the same "solution" as the super-fast Aldrin ships, it's just dumbing down the game. We wouldn't want it to be difficult. It is all a balancing act. Get the balance right and the game is awesome, get it wrong and the game is pants. Why do egosoft insist on trying to make the game easier. It's not supposed to be easy. easy=boring
If teleporting will let you take human control of a ship, and jumpdrive will let you summon your best ships in 10 seconds, which makes the fight easier?

Mick Maidens
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Post by Mick Maidens » Thu, 19. Jul 18, 23:23

Except that is not the case. Teleporting puts you in the ship magically, no jumpdrive can do that. the best you can hope for is reasonably close. And lets be honest nobody actually tries to rescue a ship in distress, by the time you have been told it has either died or escaped. Anyway traders are cheap and you have loads of them. If you were mounting an attack it just means more grind getting everything in place, oh goody just what the game needs.

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Post by spasov33 » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 08:32

Seriously, just look at the highway and tell me if you find it normal. (I apologize for my words) It looks like a trail of a snail or a giant snot, defiling the beautiful sky you created.
Please, remove the highways!
I cannot enjoy the game seeing them all the time and being forced to use them.

Assailer
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Post by Assailer » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 11:24

Perhaps highways should only be visible in special 'Navigator UI Mode'.

Teleporters are only needed if story is again based on single protagonist... like Ren in X:RB. Otherwise it would make more sense to assume control of NPCs.

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Post by Honved » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 15:43

So, the next question is, if you can teleport a person clear across the known galaxy to any specific point, why can't you teleport trade goods the same way?

I find instantaneous teleportation to any ship (or station) far worse than jumpdrives from a credibility standpoint. Either you can or you can't teleport anything you want across the universe, and if so, then ALL conventional trade by freighter is stupid. If it's too expensive to use for bulk goods, then it should have a significant credit cost for the player to use as well, and should still be a viable way to move high-value items.

Granted, removing jump drives does solve the obvious flaw of why the AI can't use it to send RR fleets or invasion forces to any point in the galaxy, making it impossible to defend anything. It also means that missions don't need to be unplayable without a jumpdrive, yet absolute cakewalks with, but replacing it with teleportation and highways is a really questionable set of solutions that create as many problems as they solves.

I see the current direction as a poorly thought-through answer to a genuine problem. The old jump drive needed to be removed or at least changed drastically, but there's got to be a better way than what's being proposed.

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Post by sd_jasper » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 17:34

Honved wrote:So, the next question is, if you can teleport a person clear across the known galaxy to any specific point, why can't you teleport trade goods the same way?
We don't know, but there could be any number of reasons. I mean, it is literally anything that the devs want it to be. Unique alien tech that can't be reproduced... one use item that exposes the player to exotic energy that allows them alone to use this tech... tech requires an organic sentient mind to form a picture of the destination in order to lock on...

I'm sure ES has some reason that this tech doesn't instantly transform the economics of space. And as you pointed out, there are plenty of questions to ask why the Jump Drive hasn't lead to massive invasions of systems. In all honestly, I could see the people of the X universe destroy the gates themselves to feel save from any random enemy fleet being able to show up there with no notice.

In fact THAT would make some great lore there. The Precursors (or whatever they are called) shut down the gates because the Terrans were just about to launch a major simultaneous attack on the home systems of the CoP. After restoring the gates, they also altered the gates or placed devices in hyperspace/warp-space/whatever to cause "jump static" making jump drives no longer effective.

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Post by spankahontis » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 18:10

spasov33 wrote:Seriously, just look at the highway and tell me if you find it normal. (I apologize for my words) It looks like a trail of a snail or a giant snot, defiling the beautiful sky you created.
Please, remove the highways!
I cannot enjoy the game seeing them all the time and being forced to use them.
Civilizations require roads to travel on, to deliver wares to other cities.
This is the same principle when talking about Highways in Core Sectors.

They're not going away so spare us the "Get rid of them Noawww!".
Love for Highways is mixed.
I see them as relevant for an established economy.

If you don't want to see them? There are other Systems and other Sectors that wont have them, spend your time in those places. Egosoft already stated that there would be a mix of Sectors with/without Highways.
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Mick Maidens
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Post by Mick Maidens » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 18:53

I have to admit I a surprised by the number of people who consider the jumpdrive a problem. I don't understand why having to travel through all the sectors between point a and b improves any part of the game. It's just "make work". I find the Terran sectors in X3 TC very boring, pretty but boring to actually fly through (after the first time). I only ever deal with them when i have to. I can't see why the jumpdrive would have any effect on the difficulty of any missions. All it does is speed up travel, and only the AI can jump where there is no gate or beacon. TBH I can't see anyone in the late game wanting to spend hours just getting from a to b. So we would put in alternatives like having identical ships spread all over the universe, what a complete waste of game time, to just end up in a position similar but inferior to the system we already have! What frightens me is that egosoft will make the game boring then nobody will buy it and we lose a brilliant game. There is a reason the jump drive has existed in space sims sine the 1980's (I had a lucasfilm game back then). It is an elegant solution to the tediousness of space travel.

iforgotmysocks
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Post by iforgotmysocks » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 19:10

It's a good design change. X4 will have more options for travel as any other X release. It's gonna be more thought out, as the overpowered 'just jump anywhere whereever you want' mechanic is finally out the window and once the player gets to enjoy fighting an enemy that doesn't exist of occational random spawns, but has an actuall fleet to call to solve a conflict, he might start to appreciate the 'no jumpdrive' decision. :D

No idea why ppl freak about such good game design choises... if they want op crap in their game, they can just use a mod, cause there will be mods adding it for those who want it. And i'm pretty sure they'll remove it pretty quick once the enemy jumps in and wrecks all their stations. :'D

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Post by ZaphodBeeblebrox » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 21:20

The layout of space is going to be very different in X4 to anything in X3.

Quite a lot of the larger sectors, the ones without highways are going to be very similar to the Terran sectors with orbital accelerators.

Gates (if they are similar to Rebirth) will be quite rare and will normally only get you to the outskirts of a system.

After that you are going to have to rely on the new travel drive/mode. Or hitch a ride on a XL ship (if this is still possible.)
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Post by Mick Maidens » Fri, 20. Jul 18, 23:18

I really hope you guys who think its a positive step are right. The trouble is I have seen so many games ruined because the developer decided to change the winning dynamic. Lets hope the new system does not ruin a brilliant game, i am not that hopeful mostly because of reunion. Well actually Aldrin, highways then Reunion. Not exactly a good run.

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Post by Graaf » Sat, 21. Jul 18, 10:44

repatomonor wrote:Then there would be no outcry like now, grumpy veteran players could still use it to their heart's extent, while keeping the original vision of Egosoft intact.
The original vision of Egosoft started because a jumpdrive was used.

spankahontis wrote:Civilizations require roads to travel on, to deliver wares to other cities.
We are not on the ground. We are in space. Where we are going, we don't need roads.

spankahontis wrote:...Highways...
I see them as relevant for an established economy.
The economy will also work without them.

Mick Maidens wrote:I have to admit I a surprised by the number of people who consider the jumpdrive a problem.
The first ones that said so are the same ones that told us that flying multiple ships was also bad. And flying Capitals was boring. And talking about original vision, didn't think you needed a radar in your ship.

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Post by Tomonor » Sat, 21. Jul 18, 11:05

Graaf wrote:
repatomonor wrote:Then there would be no outcry like now, grumpy veteran players could still use it to their heart's extent, while keeping the original vision of Egosoft intact.
The original vision of Egosoft started because a jumpdrive was used.
Yeah, I too used that as an arguement. But if we really want to get technical about it, the X-proto was supposed to be a gateless jumpdrive ship, and it really did malfunction the worst way possible. Then Terracorp made some efforts to replicate it, but creating an event horizon for the existing wormhole tunnels was as far as they could get.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is with this arguement, Egosoft can retcon the entire history of the jumpdrive if they wish by a single sentence. And it doesn't even matter what they come up with.

And this is why I am suggesting an optional jumpdrive switch plugin.

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Post by Mick Maidens » Sat, 21. Jul 18, 11:31

I think part of the problem is that I do not actually see the issue. Everything I have read in other posts as "problems" I see as irrelevant or good things. i do not see why getting to the destination quickly makes the mission when you get there easier. I do not see the AI having the ability to jump into my sectors a bad thing. If i wanted to build castles I would play Stronghold Crusader. I even like the fact the AI can "cheat" and jump into the middle of my sector. A game where you are safe and secure is boring.

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[FFCW]Urizen
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Post by [FFCW]Urizen » Sat, 21. Jul 18, 20:31

Graaf wrote: We are not on the ground. We are in space. Where we are going, we don't need roads.
Erm, yes we do. Even more so than on the ground, at sea or in the air. Law enforcement and Military only have so much of a budget and can only cover so much space. Channeling traffic is an easy way to cut down on costs, because you can focus your resources more efficiently.

And it´s not like theres an example for it right here on our beloved earth for it either. Airways. Applying your logic, these would be totally unnecessary, because there is enough space in the air. Yeah, said no flight controller ever.

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Mick Maidens
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Post by Mick Maidens » Sat, 21. Jul 18, 20:57

Realism is overrated, It's an FTL space sim it can't be realistic. Its a game it shouldn't be realistic. you could make a sniper sim that made you wait for two day before you got to take a shot, very realistic but i don't think you would sell many. I don't care about more efficient if it's boring or ugly or slows down the game. We don't need or want roads.

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Post by Gorelab » Mon, 23. Jul 18, 13:02

I feel like as long as traveling normally is fast enough not having jumpdrives will be fine and actually be nice as far as being able to control space.

Highways aren't pretty, but I felt like they gave X:Rebirth sectors a better feel of having some sort of geography rather than just being 50x50km squares.

X3:TC is a far better game, but honestly sectors in it feel so much more interchangeable.

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