Dynamic universe, yet Core systems??

[reanor]

Personally, i would like to see a far off goal in the game..one that is not easily achieved, like holding 30 systems 'all joined with no breaks' for a domination win. as you approach your goal a rival faction would only need take a system in your link to put you off course again. It would give the player and factions something to aim for, yet keep the massive amount of time and work needed to enjoy X games to the full.

I actually tried to do this in XR, I took the whole system with 7 or so sectors in it, right near that big star. The problem was that there were some indestructible stations in one sector. I had Fermunkles and Arawans camping that sector and shooting those ruins none-stop. They never completely got destroyed, and that is what I don't want to see in X4. Speaking of dynamic systems in X4, I really hope that enemy ships won't just pop in from who knows where. They said that the whole universe will be based on existing resources, industry and development. So If I decide to take a system to myself and cut off specific faction from the resources in that system, by the idea, they supposed to cease to exist, at least at that one system. I do want to see that. I want to see them come back at me with their forces and try to retake that system from me.

[RodentofDoom]

There's a thing in strategy called dynamics of scale.
This refers to civilian infrastructure, exploitable resources, manufacturing capabilities & military recruitment

The game is set at a level of scale beyond anything we have experience of.
Our scale has always been limited to
1 nation, 1 alliance of localised nations, 1 continent, we have not yet reached the scale of 1 planet
And we are a long way away from a scale of 1 system


Now try to imagine what happens when you scale those factors to 10's, 100's or 1000's of solar systems
How do you defeat an enemy with that level of capability
Sure you can defeat them in a few locations ... but what happens when the re-mobilasation from hundreds & hundreds of other worlds come to get revenge.

Multiple space spanning empires can be so vast that fringe systems will be the only viable targets they have, the dynamics of scale make parts of their empires untouchable. Yes the areas of space they control can fluctuate through wars & conquests, but they will still have core worlds that don't.
In a protracted war scale renders victory untenable due to attrition caused to all involved parties, no one wins and eventually all parties begin to collapse internally.

A space Empire can be both dynamic & static
And it is not a contradiction to state as much.


You gotta stop thinking small

[csaba]

You have to keep some core sectors since there is no other way to gain credits than from trading with and doing missions for NPC factions. In XR you can just build all your materials and build your fleet for free but at some point you will need some credits to hire new crew, repair some stuff, do some modifications or whatever credit sink there will be in X4. Of course at that point you would already have a decent stock but you basically cannot earn any more so it slowly dwindles.

In case you are fighting the last faction and they are the only NPCs left then you will probably loose all your money while they technically have infinite. So some basic core sectors make sense so you don't break the players end game.

[vadiolive]

well xr modders that alred did : https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/ ... =734207240
i have no doubt its going pop soon as on X4 , and i believe in X4 if everything be rigth probably alot wide mods to improve dynamics
i find this kind stuffs interresing because you cant spoiller yourself each time you start new game

[Alci]

You have to keep some core sectors since there is no other way to gain credits than from trading with and doing missions for NPC factions. In XR you can just build all your materials and build your fleet for free but at some point you will need some credits to hire new crew, repair some stuff

you will still find random crafting trash most likely sellable to NPCs on your station

And if everything else fails.. you can always get a mod with Pleasure Center station module producing workforce

[StoneLegionYT]

New Frontier even though looks like a mod that is not ready to use it's fully ready. It has tons of randomness to it though structured highway and such as the same but stations, amount the ships etc are all random gen. THe economy is legit so legit they have a wallet and you can starve an entire faction out cause wars, etc.

So honestly Even if X4 keeps balance does not let "global domination" or 100% pure random generation there is working concepts just fine in X Rebirth and so I can see them being modded again in X4. A lot of modders dropped in X Rebirth so I can see new ones and even old ones coming back.

[csaba]

You have to keep some core sectors since there is no other way to gain credits than from trading with and doing missions for NPC factions. In XR you can just build all your materials and build your fleet for free but at some point you will need some credits to hire new crew, repair some stuff

you will still find random crafting trash most likely sellable to NPCs on your station

And if everything else fails.. you can always get a mod with Pleasure Center station module producing workforce

Well ok, if you lose small scale money. But what if you are at war with the last NPC faction and you loose a station that had a budget of 100 million credits in it. The real loss comes from there since anything else is on autopilot.
In a scenario well the player's empire has all production facilities:
- If you lose a ship you just rebuild it by giving credits to the shipyard that eventually flows back to you and you only need a few quid to hire some new crew.
- If you lose a station, unless it's funds auto-transfer to your account you lose it's whole budget

[spankahontis]

Well they talked about factions rising and falling, coming and going, and wars and conquest, and that each game will playout differently, indicating to me a more dynamic system ownership generally, but if the main factions of the game have scripted core systems, how different and dynamic can it really be

not sure where your source is but the AI is meant to keep stability. Factions won't be rising and falling on their own. If you let them alone they won't eradicate each other. That was said.

Second thing, You can't take "ownership" of the sector formally. There are no "borders". You rule factually. If you have more stations to control economy, if you eradicate faction stations in the sector and keep any of their fleets away you de facto own the sector and its resources. Won't have your name tho.

That's what "core" system means in the context. A place where "natural habitat" of main factions is, at least at start. You can wipe them I imagine and make it your home. But for AI and some other mechanics will be still theirs (like you get rewards if you have their police license, or maybe you need to ask for permission to build a station - you don't need that permission if you don't care about reputation but no other faction then the "owner" can give it to you and no other will be pissed off if you build station there anyway.)

Same as I guess argon system will always have argon workforce. No matter that you are teladi and you are the only one having stations there. Still argon system. And their AI will keep trying to build things there and chase you out.

I'm also not sure that you can completely eradicate a faction or new one emerges. They gave a number of factions and they all sounded like they have a background history and motives. Like those two religion paranid factions fighting each other. You have rep with each faction. So I don't think you can just wipe them completely and new "anonymous" (?) would emerge. More likely with a LOT effort (might be realistically impossible) you can diminish their numbers to few, maybe to zero, but they will still gets some funds from somewhere and they will try to rebuild back. They won't "move" to some distant place to start over.

What ES talked about as "unknown" was most likely that you can change the balance between factions and they will build and spread accordingly (unlike previous games where factions didn't really make any effort to expand whatsoever while now they will to some extend; that the stations couldn't be truly destroyed, but now can) so they can't predict what yours and mine universe will look like (while in X3 the map and political situation remained pretty much the constant).

I'd prefer if they had a reputation System where you could chose to join the war or stay on the sidelines and go about the arms trading side, befriending both Factions at War.

Your Reputation with Factions. For example, you can improve your relations with a Faction from "Neutral" to "Friends" with all Factions at once, being "Friends" offers you perks in terms of discounts and access to other things you wouldn't have if you were just "Neutral".
But in matters of Conflict, you can stay out of the Fight and still be "Friends" with both sides of the War OR you can get in contact with a side and tell them you will join the fight.
Joining the Fight means that you can be more than just "Friends" you can reach the reputation of "Ally" which gives you access to that Factions Top Tech, access to Station Modules, their Best Destroyers, Weapons Etc.
Downside is your reputation with the side you didn't choose resets back to "Neutral" losing the perks of "Friend", you would be locked out of raising your Reputation to "Friend" with that Faction until the Conflict resolves. Firing the First Shot will get you the "Hostile" Rep and you can no longer trade with them until the war is over where it resets back to "Neutral" when you seek diplomatic channels with them to end the war with them.

I'd like Reputation to have meaning this time, X:Rebirth didn't have that and I felt it was supposed to have meaning but again, they lacked the time to implement the Diplomacy Mechanic.. You could be allies with everyone, Heart of Albion, PMC and ROC in the Sandbox when they were at war but I felt during Story Mode was the Diplomacy System that they envisaged in X4, but didn't have time to fully implement it in Rebirth, instead was only seen in a scripted sense.
(It was good during the Storyline Mode) You could seek full reputation with HoA and RoC but couldn't make peace with PMC until the Story Mode was completed.. Sounds to me that THIS was a taste of X4's Diplomacy System that they couldn't roll out in time; maybe i'm wrong? But I do hope this Diplomacy System doesn't disappoint.

I hope they've incorporated the Story Mode Rep into the Sandbox and that this new Diplomacy Mechanic makes it so you can't be Allied to both sides of a fight?
Imagine the incentives you could have to being an "Ally", they give you access to all their top tech at the expense of being an enemy to the other faction.
If they made it down to Earth like that? What an epic game we would have when playing the role of the Argon Commander!

[Alci]

uf, I don't think so? Last time I've read about diplomacy it was

I don't think we're planning diplomatic gameplay at the moment, but never say never

I think simple reputation status with faction that is. I think theoretically you could be friend to all, it's usually the practical problems you meet. Like how to raise reputation without harming anyone else. Most missions are against someone.

The starting reputation seems to be tied to the chosen start so if you start like a paranid rebel you will start as an enemy to paranid church, hopefully it's not locked and you (somehow) might redeem yourself if you wanted.

But they never sounded like there is any diplomatic gameplay. You won't sign treaties and such, "choose a side" or fight in war. You will always be a 3rd party, able to kill ships fighting each other, maybe get some money from it or some "war" missions and RP sides by killing the other guys (either for money or missions). Just like I will be killing pirates and anything that will look like it.