Taxation in the X Universe

[nemesis1982]

One time fee. Wouldn't want all the hassle of having to stop what i'm doing to procure funds since my cronies which are doing nothing atm on the cap ships I boosted not satisfied with wathever they can scrounge up themselves.

[Alci]

Honestly, paying for people is not what I would like. But maintenance payment for ships and stations would be my mod of choice.

There is no restriction on how many ships you have. Once bought there is no reason to care about ROA or efficiency. I like games where you need to think if more ships will make enough money to pay for themselves. Optimizing trade routes because some ships are not making enough (without maintenance it doesn't matter, if they bring 10credits it's a still a plus). And deciding if every hauler really needs maxed shields/weapons/cargo. In X3 all my ships were eventually automatically maxed no matter how small amount of commodities they were transporting.

Where number of battle ships needs to be covered by constant income so it can't grow above all limits.

And stations without materials consume resources to the point of being better to abandon them completely. (And I want to see NPC do that. Abandon/destruct station if it doesn't make enough money - AKA non fight takeover.)

[Sandalpocalypse]

The principle problem with payroll & maintenance fees is that if you want to go off and do a mission or explore for a bit you get sharply penalized if your assets arnt profitable. Even going into SETA too long cuz you went to the bathroom becomes problematic.

[Alci]

The principle problem with payroll & maintenance fees is that if you want to go off and do a mission or explore for a bit you get sharply penalized if your assets arnt profitable. Even going into SETA too long cuz you went to the bathroom becomes problematic.

then you would not do that I don't go to bathroom without pausing Hitman as well. But I think that is not a real problem and is kinda of point. Buying and setting profitable businesses. It works in all other games so it shouldn't be real problem. It's just having profit range 0-XXXmil doesn't contain any risk. You only go higher and higher. And you can't convince NPC to pack up their efforts non violently.

I always liked when NPC removed theirs train stations and sold trains in Transport Tycoon

[Zetoss]

Pay once and be done is what I strongly prefer for numerous reasons, but one thing I wouldn't be all that opposed to is an "income tax" of some sort. As for how it would work though? I don't see a way it would be even remotely friendly to the average player to use a bunch of profit-based taxation formulas in different places and at the same time it would require excessive programming that can't really be justified for a feature that would only matter to a limited percentage of players and just as many may even actually hate it for any of a number of reasons.

So yeah no, generally cough up a significant investment and be done, simple is best.

Those who absolutely HAVE to roleplay can imagine the employee takes a continuous interest rate from the sum agreed upon because it sits in a special type of locked bank account that neither employer or employee can tamper with, if their contract is terminated (for reasons other than a legal fault of the employee) the full sum is transferred to them instead and stops generating interest.

[BlackDog]

The principle problem with payroll & maintenance fees is that if you want to go off and do a mission or explore for a bit you get sharply penalized if your assets arnt profitable. Even going into SETA too long cuz you went to the bathroom becomes problematic.

I never quite thought about that, that would indeed be problematic, since sometimes you just wanna get everything all nice and setup, and take some downtime by exploring ancient wrecks in space that could kill you.

Some games do thrive on the payroll systems though like mount and blade where its a key function of maintaining your army, but even then it kind of gets sidelined once you get established as a king yourself since your lands begin to basicly pay all your wages and you no longer need to run trade routes or pillage the country side as a bandit.

[reanor]

I personally don't care about weekly salaries. Why salary? To make it feel more like they are hired than they are slaves? You don't understand that you are paying them a contract fee. Like a football player - 3 million and you are hired for whatever years contract states. Same here - you pay contract fee and you hire an NPC for like 10 years. Since there is no real TIME in X games, it's pointless to talk about the length of the contract.

[ajime]

At least in X3 CLS2 pilot has wages.

[Alan Phipps]

There surely has to be a gameplay or immersion purpose for any regular payment system (taxation or wages) introduced. What gameplay aspects or playstyle decisions are to be affected here?

Is it intended to limit the rate of player asset expansion in the early game? (In mid to late game such costs would probably be lost in player account 'noise' and be disregarded).

Is it more an early game crew/asset skill/quality control aspect? Do you use cheaper less skilled crew/assets to save on training, upgrading and costs and take some greater commercial and asset risks as a direct result, or do you go as soon as possible with fewer and more expensive elite crew manning fewer high-rated assets but with better individual results and safety?

Without an intended gameplay purpose I wouldn't understand the point of added financial micromanagement just for its own sake - in my personal opinion.

(Devious thought - a new station NPC trade called 'Financial Advisor' that submits tax exemptions and rebates on crew salaries. The more skilled the advisor, the lower the payments. )

[radcapricorn]

(Devious thought - a new station NPC trade called 'Financial Advisor' that submits tax exemptions and rebates on crew salaries. The more skilled the advisor, the lower the payments. )

"Show me your skills, please!"
"I can make your spaceweed distribution network tax deductible. I have some connections with the universal health organization..."
"You're hired!"

[spankahontis]

Lack money sink and difficulty rating in XR
make the game after 1 day or 2 day played pure playground , not sandbox or living universe

The mod I use that gives a salary to Staff doesn't effect my ability to rake in the cash.
Transporting a passenger or a defend station mission pays off the wage deduction with left over profit.. Hardly a burden to your money making, it's not invasive and only adds to immersion.

Receiving pay for a lifetime of service just looks ridiculous, it's slavery in an enlightened time, it just doesn't fit, not that slavery wouldn't exist and that you could profit from it, but in Argon Space? Just not realistic?

[A5PECT]

Forgive me for suggesting the "make it optional" route....

But I think running costs like taxes, employee salaries, and other upkeep costs would make for a nice difficulty setting. Players that want a more involve management and strategy experience could turn it on, while players that want a less stressful, more streamlined experience could turn it off.

Maybe adding a function like that in a patch or DLC?

[spankahontis]

Forgive me for suggesting the "make it optional" route....

But I think running costs like taxes, employee salaries, and other upkeep costs would make for a nice difficulty setting. Players that want a more involve management and strategy experience could turn it on, while players that want a less stressful, more streamlined experience could turn it off.

Maybe adding a function like that in a patch or DLC?

It wouldn't be that burdening, but yeah.. Increase the rate of these things through difficulty settings for those that want a challenge.

There surely has to be a gameplay or immersion purpose for any regular payment system (taxation or wages) introduced. What gameplay aspects or playstyle decisions are to be affected here?

A5PECT made a good point, that difficulty effects the rate.

That one off Fee for hiring goes into a Pot, you hire 3 Crewman the cash reserves for that Ship would be a collective 300,000 Credits.
Everytime that ship creates a surplus, 1% of that Surplus goes into that reserve. It's essentially a Moral meter for that crew as well as solving the wage problem, basically they want to get paid? They have to make money under a contract that they get 1% of the Profits.
That Reserve falls below zero, moral is effected.
To which you solve the problem by either finding a trade route that's more profitable? Or firing the Crew.
If you allow their reserves to fall into major debt. -1 million Credits for example, the Crew will Mutiny or abandon ship as you are financially ruining them if they stay.

Difficulty settings can adjust this so Easy settings those moral/reserve limits are more forgiving with a much larger debt cap.
Harder Difficulties give you a challenge and immersive experience.
Maybe even disable them entirely in Easy Settings, for those that don't want to concentrate too hard on the Business management side?

Is it intended to limit the rate of player asset expansion in the early game? (In mid to late game such costs would probably be lost in player account 'noise' and be disregarded).

If anything, for those that want a Challenge? It would make it harder to be a Mogul at the Start, but really rewarding when you manage to run a successful Empire and keep the books managed.

Like I said above, those that don't want that kind of challenge, can disable it through difficulty.

Is it more an early game crew/asset skill/quality control aspect? Do you use cheaper less skilled crew/assets to save on training, upgrading and costs and take some greater commercial and asset risks as a direct result, or do you go as soon as possible with fewer and more expensive elite crew manning fewer high-rated assets but with better individual results and safety?

Maybe it would make it more of an incentive to hire the lesser skilled crew, because they are less likely to complain at bad profits and Mutiny, but you would still have to contend with the debuffs of inexperience and eventually they would acquire experience and you would have to be weary of their own Financial Security.

For Navy Vessels, However, you would most certainly want the Best Crew, and they would be exempt from the cash reserves of Merchant Fleets as they would get their Profit through other 'Imagined' reasons.

Without an intended gameplay purpose I wouldn't understand the point of added financial micromanagement just for its own sake - in my personal opinion.

(Devious thought - a new station NPC trade called 'Financial Advisor' that submits tax exemptions and rebates on crew salaries. The more skilled the advisor, the lower the payments. )

If anything, that would be a more simpler way of implementation.
You can literally mod a salary based system in X:Rebirth.
Hiring a 'Financial Regulator' NPC that deals with the Wages/Tax Aspect of your Empire would make it allot easier and yeah, the more experienced they are, the greater the savings you make.
Maybe you can only hire 1 per System?
Like a transaction between the player and a Station, you transfer money into his account, he pays the Workers, he pays the Tax in that System.
When he is running low on money, he contacts you to fill the koffers again.
But yeah, the Financial Advisor can also make you a small surplus on the side as well through Tax Rebates, Shady Stock Investments that we see in real life.
So he would be a very powerful NPC to have, Expensive to hire as well, but worth it.

[radcapricorn]

Maybe adding a function like that in a patch or DLC?

Commodity Logistics Software (CLS) traders before Rebirth, while not making it into the game "proper", but officially distributed in a Bonus Pack, received wages based on their flight time. This worked, still works, and I don't see why it couldn't work in the future. But guys, let's first see how core mechanics of the game work. Who knows, maybe they've made people not only comment on the smelliness of your clothing in the bay, but outright quit on you while calling you names?
The bear ain't even here yet, let alone dead.

[spankahontis]

Maybe adding a function like that in a patch or DLC?

Commodity Logistics Software (CLS) traders before Rebirth, while not making it into the game "proper", but officially distributed in a Bonus Pack, received wages based on their flight time. This worked, still works, and I don't see why it couldn't work in the future. But guys, let's first see how core mechanics of the game work. Who knows, maybe they've made people not only comment on the smelliness of your clothing in the bay, but outright quit on you while calling you names?
The bear ain't even here yet, let alone dead.

Of Course, but still.. It makes for a great debate when trying to make a Space Trading Simulator that's real to life.

I loved that Trade Logistics Software in X3, I couldn't possibly play the game without the Bonus Pack; it was an essential Mod for me, no questions asked.

But again, it could be done in X:Rebirth to which even then it should of been part of the Vanilla Game. I think Egosoft need to make this a feature, if not at the release of X4, then in a later Patch/Expansion. It's a feature that should be in the game as it brings greater realism to an economy they are trying to make fully self-sustaining, free from the God Engine having to fill in the gaps.
Making NPCs less like Robots and more like actual people that expect to get paid for their labour and will refuse to work for you, even punish you if you don't meet their demands; like in the Real World.
Having Unions some how added to the game would be great to have, trying to beat them and maintain your profits. Being a Bad Boss effects your reputation which can be linked to hiring fees, the more of a tyrant you are, the harder it is to hire people.

[csaba]

I think what some people don't understand here is what it takes to make such a "fluff" feature in a game under development. By fluff I mean non-core gameplay related behavior and I'm stressing the under development part.


While the coding might take a few hours the thing is:

- First you have to propose it
- then you have to brainstorm it's details
- then code
- then simulate and test
- might break another code you have to fix
- might break cause the game code changes rapidly and you have to start over
- probably taking weeks to perfect

Just look at how many mods need rework each patch cause a rouge line of code was changed. Now apply this to a game under constant change on a weekly basis. It is easier for modders to add such fluff features cause the game is already in a somewhat stable state.

Since these features are not necessary for the core gameplay they just unnecessarily extend the development cycle.

Look at Star Citizen. Each year they add some new fluff like facial recognition and 3d whisky with ice cubes this year that probably gave the 3d model team nightmares, and probably broke the player modell several times.


And they still don't have Mass traffic or working npc ships.

See Egosoft also ads such features but they are limiting it to the few things like mass traffic and red holo dancers. If they add our every whish like the above mentioned competitor game we would have to expect X4 to release in 2030 not this year.

[Falcrack]

There surely has to be a gameplay or immersion purpose for any regular payment system (taxation or wages) introduced. What gameplay aspects or playstyle decisions are to be affected here?

Is it intended to limit the rate of player asset expansion in the early game? (In mid to late game such costs would probably be lost in player account 'noise' and be disregarded).

Is it more an early game crew/asset skill/quality control aspect? Do you use cheaper less skilled crew/assets to save on training, upgrading and costs and take some greater commercial and asset risks as a direct result, or do you go as soon as possible with fewer and more expensive elite crew manning fewer high-rated assets but with better individual results and safety?

Without an intended gameplay purpose I wouldn't understand the point of added financial micromanagement just for its own sake - in my personal opinion.

(Devious thought - a new station NPC trade called 'Financial Advisor' that submits tax exemptions and rebates on crew salaries. The more skilled the advisor, the lower the payments. )

It adds a challenge, to keep the owner of a large empire on their toes to make sure they are making money continually to support all their various owned ships and assets, rather than simply be able to sit back and rest easy after aquiring them all. That is the gameplay purpose for regular wages/taxes/maintenance fees. I would definitely be interested in a mod for this.

[pref]

keep the owner of a large empire on their toes to make sure they are making money continually to support all their various owned ships and assets, rather than simply be able to sit back and rest easy after aquiring them all

This is already there, your ships cannot trade without cash, stations stop producing without resources etc.. and your whole empire breaks down. This sit back thing only works if you have a self sustaining empire, but at that level some minor tax would vanish in your budget anyway. And such a huge infrastructure needs constant attention anyway.
What else motivation would the player need to earn more profits?
If random employees leave your services because of low budget, it would only add to the tedium factor having to replace them one by one - even if its just UI clicks, let alone having to travel there and handle the hire process personally.

Just having some extra regular payment as a function of ships owned, or employees hired would only have a point in case ego messed up financial balancing of the game, but i would not make that assumption without even playing it.

And if you want that level of financial detail whats up with the income that never appear in the game, like rental fees on your stations, the tax they pay after commerce for you, services your stations provide for anyone stepping on your territory, etc. Another game could be built around this where population, general "happiness", maintenance costs, trade volume etc depend on how you handle gameplay, but that would require the player having the means to balance this as in a city simulator.
Having to pay wages or tax (to whom? you're the one who is in a situation to collect it later in the game) alone, without the rest of the mechanics where this feature would fit in and allow some kind of gameplay where things need to be thought out and balanced doesn't help the game become any better imo.

Maybe if the curve is too generous early in the game tax could serve as an incentive to have your own production in your own sector, but that again is only needed if the game is not well balanced as it is using other means.

[spankahontis]

keep the owner of a large empire on their toes to make sure they are making money continually to support all their various owned ships and assets, rather than simply be able to sit back and rest easy after aquiring them all

This is already there, your ships cannot trade without cash, stations stop producing without resources etc.. and your whole empire breaks down. This sit back thing only works if you have a self sustaining empire, but at that level some minor tax would vanish in your budget anyway. And such a huge infrastructure needs constant attention anyway.
What else motivation would the player need to earn more profits?
If random employees leave your services because of low budget, it would only add to the tedium factor having to replace them one by one - even if its just UI clicks, let alone having to travel there and handle the hire process personally.

Just having some extra regular payment as a function of ships owned, or employees hired would only have a point in case ego messed up financial balancing of the game, but i would not make that assumption without even playing it.

And if you want that level of financial detail whats up with the income that never appear in the game, like rental fees on your stations, the tax they pay after commerce for you, services your stations provide for anyone stepping on your territory, etc. Another game could be built around this where population, general "happiness", maintenance costs, trade volume etc depend on how you handle gameplay, but that would require the player having the means to balance this as in a city simulator.
Having to pay wages or tax (to whom? you're the one who is in a situation to collect it later in the game) alone, without the rest of the mechanics where this feature would fit in and allow some kind of gameplay where things need to be thought out and balanced doesn't help the game become any better imo.

Maybe if the curve is too generous early in the game tax could serve as an incentive to have your own production in your own sector, but that again is only needed if the game is not well balanced as it is using other means.

CBJ's Idea of the "Financial Advisor NPC" sounds the much better option, the F.Advisor can handle the pay of all your Employees, plus make money for you on the side in the ways of Tax Rebates, Stock Investments Etc. The more skill rating.. The better rewards/management of Employees.

And were not saying that Staff Abandon Ship, meaning you have to hire them personally, there is always ways to get around that, again a feature of the F.Advisor would be to hire staff for you. So I hear you that people found hiring staff in X:Rebirth tedious, (Not me) but acknowledge that those people exist and have stated as such in the past on these forums.

But an exciting by-product of Staff not getting paid, they can turn to Mutiny and steal your Trade Ship, which gives you exciting new options like they become a Pirate Faction and will flee with your ship into the Pirate Sectors, you can hunt them down with your Navy or let them run away, maintains the Pirate Economy and allows for new avenues of gameplay.
It doesn't have to be tedious to manage your Finances.
But a one off "Fee" for a Lifetime of service is a TERRIBLE Mechanic! They have not improved on it.

[Alan Phipps]

"CBJ's Idea .." No, I am not an advanced AGI …