Please Remove Encounters Mechanism

[ei8htx]

I think the animosity towards the encounter system comes down to one basic point:

"Why is this here?" As explorers, when we find something, we ask ourselves this question. If the answer is "only because I'm here", then the mechanic isn't accomplishing anything.

Like Kadatherion said, this can be resolved via an RPG-like mechanic. RPGs have different encounters based on the zone you're in. If you're wandering around the grassland, you'll come across slime. If you're in a dungeon, skeletons, and a lot more frequently.

The random encounter thing can definitely work in X4. To apply it here, the sectors need need some invisible zones, where flying in some areas can spawn different things. For example, dead space between far flung stations and the gates have increased pirate activity looking to hijack a lonely trader. It just doesn't make sense to spawn a pirate 500km out in the middle of nowhere.

One important takeaway from the RPGs is: Spawn rates are different depending on where you are. Deep space should have less (and different) encounters than 50km from a station.

Sectors themselves will have different spawns too:

* Heavily civilized systems should be rare on pirates or Xenon; because they can't make it through the gate
* Mining vessels should spawn in resource fields, and likely never anywhere else.
* Fringe systems should have more of everything; pirates, abandoned ships, hidden lockboxes.
* Sector race should factor into what spawns there (including pirate ship type).
* Exception being the Kha'aak. They're like ants; you find them everywhere for no good reason.

Finally, as was briefly mentioned in this thread, you guys (ES) introduced the long range scanner. Use it! I've tried to use it to ping stuff way out in the middle of nowhere, but it either isn't spawning that far away from me, or I'm overwhelmed by asteroids.

You could increase the radar range too, and give it 2 zones; one where you identify everything, and a much larger radius where items are unknown.

Tech should ping way different than asteroids.

Something interesting (like tech) should have a different color/sound/temporary effect on the radar. In this way you can be out in the middle of nowhere, and ping something 200km away and go investigate. Maybe it's an abandoned M ship in the middle of a debris field, or a bunch of Xenon protecting a mining ship. You won't know till you get close (as all you had was a ping), and that's half the fun.

[Buzz2005]

Speaking of ships spawning out of thin air - do you have plans to fix in 2.5 the constant spawn of ships with minefield (probably related to the mission where you have to save the ship from minefield)?
In a few hours game spawned like 10 ships next to my HQ. At first I was really happy like it's chrismass, but this chrismass doesn't want to end
I start to consider manually fly my Zeus to ram those ships and their minefields like this (travel drive will come in handy ):
https://youtu.be/d66NOXhwfoI?t=295

Cant you just read the changlog of the beta??? Yes they fixed that

That changelog is huge - I only briefly go trough it.

And you dare to bother CBJ to answer that question, I mean the audacity, just kidding but you will have to read it eventually

[Bozar69]

IMO a good sandbox shouldn't have to force encounters like this.

I explained why it can't work like that in this game in my long post above. Space is big; too big for chance encounters to be viable. By all means make suggestions, but just saying it shouldn't be necessary doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You confuse my point. Im fine with the random encounters, but like some others have mentioned they dont make sense. An easy idea for my specific example of miners hanging out in sectors with no rocks or gas would be to spawn a small pocket of resourses. Then that mining ship has a reason to be hanging out in a remote area where it has no purpose. For pirates maybe spawn some sort of small pirate base out of the way that can be scanned down. Kill the defenders, blow up the small structure, and scoop the loot.

[nickolaiproblem]

I think the animosity towards the encounter system comes down to one basic point:

"Why is this here?" As explorers, when we find something, we ask ourselves this question. If the answer is "only because I'm here", then the mechanic isn't accomplishing anything.

Like Kadatherion said, this can be resolved via an RPG-like mechanic. RPGs have different encounters based on the zone you're in. If you're wandering around the grassland, you'll come across slime. If you're in a dungeon, skeletons, and a lot more frequently.

The random encounter thing can definitely work in X4. To apply it here, the sectors need need some invisible zones, where flying in some areas can spawn different things. For example, dead space between far flung stations and the gates have increased pirate activity looking to hijack a lonely trader. It just doesn't make sense to spawn a pirate 500km out in the middle of nowhere.

One important takeaway from the RPGs is: Spawn rates are different depending on where you are. Deep space should have less (and different) encounters than 50km from a station.

Sectors themselves will have different spawns too:

* Heavily civilized systems should be rare on pirates or Xenon; because they can't make it through the gate
* Mining vessels should spawn in resource fields, and likely never anywhere else.
* Fringe systems should have more of everything; pirates, abandoned ships, hidden lockboxes.
* Sector race should factor into what spawns there (including pirate ship type).
* Exception being the Kha'aak. They're like ants; you find them everywhere for no good reason.

Finally, as was briefly mentioned in this thread, you guys (ES) introduced the long range scanner. Use it! I've tried to use it to ping stuff way out in the middle of nowhere, but it either isn't spawning that far away from me, or I'm overwhelmed by asteroids.

You could increase the radar range too, and give it 2 zones; one where you identify everything, and a much larger radius where items are unknown.

Tech should ping way different than asteroids.

Something interesting (like tech) should have a different color/sound/temporary effect on the radar. In this way you can be out in the middle of nowhere, and ping something 200km away and go investigate. Maybe it's an abandoned M ship in the middle of a debris field, or a bunch of Xenon protecting a mining ship. You won't know till you get close (as all you had was a ping), and that's half the fun.

Actually that would be great way to set up encounters rather than just have everything in ever sector you have certain ships for certain sectors.

[Kadatherion]

Like Kadatherion said, this can be resolved via an RPG-like mechanic. RPGs have different encounters based on the zone you're in. If you're wandering around the grassland, you'll come across slime. If you're in a dungeon, skeletons, and a lot more frequently.

The random encounter thing can definitely work in X4. To apply it here, the sectors need need some invisible zones, where flying in some areas can spawn different things. For example, dead space between far flung stations and the gates have increased pirate activity looking to hijack a lonely trader. It just doesn't make sense to spawn a pirate 500km out in the middle of nowhere.

One important takeaway from the RPGs is: Spawn rates are different depending on where you are. Deep space should have less (and different) encounters than 50km from a station. [...]

One of the challenges of implementing such a system is the fact we have a dynamic universe (or well, we should once all the kinks with the war system are ironed out), whereas usually RPGs are static environments. Meaning what was once a core sector of a certain race could become a fringe sector of another one once they've conquered it. So Ego would have to code a fairly complex set of variables to influence the % of different encounter types the RNG can choose from depending on where you are: sector ownership, how many stations are in the sector and how far from you is the closest one, possibly also ownership of the neighboring sectors (if the closest system is a xenon one, then up the % of xenon flavoured encounters, if you are in argon space and you are surrounded only by other argon owned sectors then the system is to be considered more "core", so less chances of xenon or HOP ships "spawning"), et cetera. Absolutely doable, but it would require quite a bit of work to balance well.

That being said, I also like a lot how you put accent on the scanning mechanics, I agree they should often have a relevant role in encounters tied to "exploration gameplay".

In my opinion - and I'm happy to see this is a widely shared one - the effort would totally be worth it. And I'm confident it would be safe to turn the encounter rates way down compared to what they are now, to further add to the uniqueness and sense of wonder of those times where you still do trigger one.
Egosoft has currently balanced them (along with a lot of other things in the game) with the more "causal"/arcade players, thinking the player has to be spammed with ships and constant action to prevent boredom: that might even have been true for a good chunk of the playerbase in the first few weeks after release, but now more than ever as time passes fewer and fewer "casual" gamers are left, and X4 goes back to be the domain of us old farts timers, as the "casuals" have been lured by the newer, shiny digital mermaids. Just as we have no fear of staying still 2 hours straight in the UI setting up an infrastructure or a trade fleet, we also have no fear of flying for 15 minutes in deep space before finally finding that ping that might be an unusual encounter with unique challenges and rewards.

Much like Elite Dangerous (and its own set of well known issues), we have nothing against fairly long stretches of gameplay without encountering anyone, what matters is that when you do encounter someone, that has to be an event worth your time, interesting, varied: just like ED - even if from different, maybe even opposite starting standpoints - the game needs to be more deep, not just wider. As long as what you can find is rewarding in terms of gameplay, then the wait will be worth it, and works towards the end of extending the breadth of the game, pacing content handing out so that you don't see everything the game has to offer to soon (which is another widespread issue in X4 when compared to previous titles: X4 throws everything at you at an incredible pace, which unfortunately makes the game feel much smaller than it is or could be, a problem of course further emphasized by the fact there currently are objectively less assets to throw at you compared to X3).
I do believe the future patches/expansions should - while also adding content and assets - work towards slowing down the game balance and pace on many aspects such as this. It's that pace combined with a lot of content variety and different ways to approach it that makes X3 one of those games you always come back to once in a while, building up thousands of hours of playtime over the years.

[ei8htx]

One of the challenges of implementing such a system is the fact we have a dynamic universe (or well, we should once all the kinks with the war system are ironed out), whereas usually RPGs are static environments. Meaning what was once a core sector of a certain race could become a fringe sector of another one once they've conquered it.

You make a good point. The zones that determine what randomly spawn would probably have to be proceduraly generated. That's not a light undertaking, but...

In my opinion - and I'm happy to see this is a widely shared one - the effort would totally be worth it.

I agree. It's so bad right now I'd rather not have it at all, but fixing it would be the much better option. Space would get a lot bigger.

I do believe the future patches/expansions should - while also adding content and assets - work towards slowing down the game balance and pace on many aspects such as this. It's that pace combined with a lot of content variety and different ways to approach it that makes X3 one of those games you always come back to once in a while, building up thousands of hours of playtime over the years.

A little OT, but I agree 100%. I used to scavenge battlefields back in X3TC to get enough loot to upgrade my measly M4. It took hours. In X4, I had an M ship (~M6) in a few hours. It took dozens of hours before I had battleship and my first station. Getting the HQ took ages, as it should.

[spankahontis]

Can Egosoft please remove this mechanic from the game, or at least make it optional? It is the one thing that I hate the most about X4, where I am just cruising along and enemies are randomly warped to points along my path. Constantly interrupting the nice, chill music with the crap, frantic combat music. Killing me when I investigate data vaults. Giving me combat opportunities when I want none. Seriously, if I want combat opportunities, I know where to go.

There is a mod that disables this game mechanic, and I find the game 1000% more enjoyable with it. But I am trying to be a good little boy and play the vanilla version of the game right now, so that I can post bug reports for the 2.5 beta, and also have access to ventures. I cannot understate how much I hate this particular feature of X4.

Spawning ships.. BOOOOO!!!

https://i.imgur.com/0xoYLaO.png?1

[wwdragon]

I would find the random encounter (teleporting units) system much less annoying if it never happened in normal, faction owned systems.
Because in those systems, they have no reason to be there, unless they flew in as part of an invasion.

IN the out of the way systems, especially when I'm outside the radar range of a station, I'd find it much easier to accept the appearance of an occassional xenon M or N.


I still think Ka'ak should never be encountered outside the systems they have a base in, since they are hiding from the 'normal races' ever since operation final fury.... UNLESS there's going to be a storyline involving them.
That would actually be really cool.. maybe get to know them for once as friendlies and help them rebuild in that system they inhabit.

[graphicboy]

Thanks for the explanation. I wish there was some way to consolidate all of these design-related posts, rather than having to read the entire forum. The whole "wtf" response to things is because a lot of them don't make any sense.

Personally I don't enjoy the explorer aspect in 4x-like space games, and prefer the empire management instead (thus the no encounters mod). "Sins of a Solar Empire" or whatever irritates me due to lack of 1st person. I just can't be happy.

[Nort The Fragrent]

Red encounters ! Out in deep space, yes now and then is ok. But not as often as they are. It is stupid !! And not realistic. To the point of being a real pain and making deep space a place not to go as it is infested with reds.

I enjoy the exploring side to a space game, it helps give the game a sense of magnitude. What I am disappointed with is the nothing that is out there! Yes nothing at all. zip. Why?

Why is there not a disabled ship far out beyond the edge to find, ( and not patrolled by reds ) please no. it could be like that neat painted ship from X3, that was so cool to find.
It could be a rare ship that had extra stuff from the normal ships. So was a real feather in your cap as a pilot.

Or a moon in the distance that takes an age to get too, then when there you discover some cool stuff, and initiate a gate to become active, letting you into an as yet undiscovered section to the game. ( not one sector, but more. )

Yes far far away, so us explores have a purpose to go looking. If the roomer gos around that there is a hidden gate, somewhere. That alone is enough to spark the game back to life. As it is, it is quite dull.

The Broken moon in Rebirth was cool to fly through, yes took me days.
The bright blue sector was also very pleasing to fly through.
The ice clumps in rebirth were extraordinarily beautiful.
The fire sun that was so brilliant.

Where has all that stuff gone?

Put a station way way out in the distance, ( taking hours to get too ) that is the only place you can buy a certain engine, or weapon, or paint job. Something interesting please.

Kha’ak Xenon Pirates are nothing but a nuisance to me, I turn around and go away from them. I fly most of my time in the Pegasus, with no weapons. It’s fast, has reasonable visibility and gets me around quickly enough.

The game has not been out that long, yet I have all the blue prints, all the ships, all the station modules. And can at the drop of a hat build what ever I want from my own shipyard. I have over 4 Billion in spending cash.

The game is way too easy, and shoves you up the faction ladder way too fast. And thats with no fighting just trading.

[Sanshy]

They want to give the envy to explore deep space ........


Hallo...I am so excited to find M and N and some practice shooting khaak in deep space ... that’s really rewarding and something new. Thanks buddy!

How many of us are going to explore deep space ? It’s really useless and expand your sector that the interesting area to see become a pixel ?!


I am wondering sometimes the decisions taken ... it’s so obvious it’s a bad choice and no one care about that, even worst it’s a nuisance.

[pref]

What kinds of encounters could occur that would make exploration more varied and interesting?

I think it would add a lot if they led anywhere and were controllable.
For ex, it would feel better, if
- following those ships from a distance would lead someplace, like
* anomaly/vault/wreck/lootbox/claimable ship
* resource rich area/crystals/rare mission
* or alternatively to a strong group of enemies (L/XL ships) to freak the player out or at least give them a good fight or some boarding targets.

- Or they could just drop some items which mark a PoI on the map so it feels like the event is connected to something already existing in the game world (unexplored station, anomaly, vault, large fleet about to attack player asset, data leak to a missing BP, rare mission, rare trade discount/subscription etc)

- if it was not happening all the time, and there was a way to stop them - for ex letting one ship escape would mean another group will come soonish but hunting them all down would put a stop to these encounters for a longer time while in the same area

[Kernel Panic]

What would it be like to give these encounters some physical context? If there are a lot of Xenon fighters scouting a sector then the player could be given an exploratory mission to find the space/time anomaly that is allowing the enemy to bypass faction security. This could involve all aspects of game play from flying, fighting, and trading to scanning and research to crafting and station building, and perhaps even building a fleet and leading it through the anomaly on a counter attack before retreating and sealing the way through.

Space will always have a very limited number of artificially constructed objects in it. It is my opinion that justifying their placement and placing them correctly are of equal importance.

[Falcrack]

I understand the encounters mechanism is not going away. And the alternative, having ships purposefully flying out to all the deep space areas, is not viable, due to the immensity of space, and the difficulty of programming. So I think the best solution is to have predefined zones where spawning of kha'ak, xenon, and pirate ships is allowed. You would draw a boundary in the area where the encounters are more likely to happen. Maybe have some rules that encounters do not happen within a certain distance of a friendly station. Also, the rules regarding encounters could be made specific for a certain enemy. For instance, in Xenon space, the chance of the encounters mechanism turning on for Xenon should be much, much higher than in Argon Prime, for example. By having pre-defined zones and rules regarding proximity to friendly stations, which alter the odds of encounters, the encounters mechanism can be made to feel much more "genuine".

[Nort The Fragrent]

Just like your game volume setting, Can we have a red encounter setting we set.

This would then please us all, as we can decide ourselves how often these encounters happen.

There are times you want to go out for a good scrap, then there are times you want to be left alone.
Having this encounter setting would be awesome.

[Crux_72]

Just like your game volume setting, Can we have a red encounter setting we set.

This would then please us all, as we can decide ourselves how often these encounters happen.

There are times you want to go out for a good scrap, then there are times you want to be left alone.
Having this encounter setting would be awesome.

I would welcome that too. And yes, I have to say that, like the OP, I also disabled the encounters the very moment I discovered the mod.

[M1A1 Carbine]

I have just started playing this after a short brake and i am still learning how to play and i must say the devs have F*****ed this game up by doing this i wont be playing it unless they remove it.
Gong back to Elite Dangerous.

[Crux_72]

I have just started playing this after a short brake and i am still learning how to play and i must say the devs have F*****ed this game up by doing this i wont be playing it unless they remove it.
Gong back to Elite Dangerous.

Why don't you use the mod to get rid of this? It works fine and makes the game much more enjoyable (for me).

[Falcrack]

I have just started playing this after a short brake and i am still learning how to play and i must say the devs have F*****ed this game up by doing this i wont be playing it unless they remove it.
Gong back to Elite Dangerous.

Why don't you use the mod to get rid of this? It works fine and makes the game much more enjoyable (for me).

+1, mods could help you out a ton.
This is a good game. It has some quirks, but overall quite solid.

[Shehriazad]

Yea I never quite liked it.


Instead give some ships a REASON to be there...for a "random encounter" system that isn't based on teleporting the same 3 ships in your face every other minute.


In the end all you need to do is to make up some "jobs"...and that's what this game is missing. JOBS aside from mining, trading and patrolling. If you create more jobs with pilots using appropriate ships for it, it suddenly becomes a whole lot more interesting.


Here some examples:

Deep Space Scientists:-> Going around in S class scouting ships, scanning and probing stuff

Smuggler Convoys: -> Using the "wormholes" to try and get goods from A to B...or at least have them avoid the highways. Maybe even have them meet traders that pick up the illegal goods in the middle of nowhere.

Secret Military Forces:-> Using the new Resupply ships, they could even be in enemy sectors...but just far enough to stay out of sector range. They would be a great place to add some special intel missions that you can only receive there.

Space Racers:-> Off the "grid" those guys will have violent races that the player can even partake in for prize and fame. (Im pretty sure some people will remember the X3 races that existed)

Xenon/Kha'ak Rogue base:-> COMPACT shipyards that are hidden away and are "self sufficient" (hidden inside an off-border asteroid belt) that can only produce S-Ships that are WAY out of scanner range, sending small waves of strike forces to weaken a system. Destroying one would cause the Xenon/Kha'ak to secretly set up one of those SMALL bases somewhere else.

Scavengers:-> Scavenging stuff...duh. Those could even get into fights with other scavengers over lockboxes and other space junk with the player having the free choice of who to help, to ignore it or to yoink it from under their noses.

Temporary "Venture Singularities":-> A tie in that could be enjoyed completely offline with optional on-line properties. Just imagine a trans dimensional wormhole that pops up every once in a while. Larger amounts of NPC traders, pirates and other stuff could pop out and disappear into that place. With Venture mode on a large amount of player ships could slip through this...maybe even enabling the planned "assault" ventures from THERE to give players a chance to tackle such ships head-on and try to yeet them out of your universe before they can do any real damage.



Obviously that's just random ideas...but in the end if you create more jobs, the universe will be more alive and ALSO allow the devs to turn off this shoddy feature. In general the random encounters just feel like something that was hastily plugged in to fix the hole that is the lack of NPC jobs.