Sector Ownership in 3.0

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Falcrack
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Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Falcrack » Fri, 19. Apr 19, 02:43

CBJ wrote:
Sat, 26. Jan 19, 01:18
As some of you may already have figured out, one cool feature of X4 is the ability to own entire sectors and even change their names. With 3.00 we aim to build upon this with a number of features to help you benefit from sector control. You can then basically become your own faction with your own set of rules.
X4 is a cool sandbox game where we can set our own goals. One obvious goal that many players have when they start the game is to conquer the galaxy. That seems like a reasonably challenging goal, which would require investment of considerable amounts of time to achieve.

One issue with such a goal, however, is that in the context of the game, owning sectors is pretty meaningless. You can conquer the galaxy, but so what? Yeah you can change the sector name, but that’s it. Taking over sectors, as it stands now, feels pointless. Egosoft have indicated that with 3.0, they will introduce additional benefits of sector ownership. I have no idea what they are planning, but here are some thoughts I had that would give extra incentive, and thus extra meaning, to becoming a sector owner, essentially a faction unto yourself.

Taxes:
Collecting taxes from the NPC stations or local population within the sector could provide a good reason to sector ownership. If you are merely setting up a station in a sector owned by another faction, you would be paying regular taxes to the sector owner. That would provide a strong incentive to either set up stations in unowned space, or to own a sector yourself, so that instead of paying out taxes, others would be paying out taxes to you. There could be property taxes based on the number and size of stations, sales taxes which would be a % added on to the price of each item that the buyer pays, and taxes of the local population. Sectors with large population centers could generate a huge amount of tax revenue, and sectors that are uninhabited would provide very little in taxes. Taxes would be collected every half hour or so.

Limited workforce per sector:
Another thing that would encourage ownership of multiple sectors is if there were limitations on the amount of available workforce in a sector. You would not be able to simply sit in one tiny corner of the galaxy and produce megastations that will outproduce entire factions. You could still have a megastation in a sector, but it could not realistically grow uninhibited past a certain point. With more production modules, the workforce would be spread more and more thinly among the various stations. Perhaps you could set your wages higher to quickly attract workforce away from other NPC stations in the sector, but that of course would mean decreased profitability. Some sectors would have more available workforce than others. So to become more powerful, you would have to expand your presence to more sectors.

Increased workforce necessity:
If sector workforce were limited, workforce requirements for stations would probably need a rebalance. Currently, a station with 0 workforce is just about as efficient (100% efficient) as a station with full employment (125% efficient). This difference in efficiency between full employment and no employees seems much too small to me. Not enough to provide a strong incentive for a fully staffed station. To simulate the critical need for workforce to run your stations, stations with 0 workforce should maybe only operate at 10% efficiency, while a fully staffed station would have 100% efficiency. Under such a scenario, the cost for blueprints for habitation modules should probably be reduced from ~14 million as of now to ~0.5 million credits, because habitation modules would no longer be simply nice to have, they would be critical. You could operate with no workforce, but it would be incredibly inefficient.

Restrictions on building permits:
Owning a sector could give you the right to restrict other NPCs from setting up shop and using the available workforce you need for your own factories. Or, you could allow NPCs to freely set up shop in your sectors, paying you a generous amount in taxes. So, you could either have a command economy (all production owned by your faction, you collect very little in taxes but own all the raw materials to produce ships), or a laissez-faire capitalist economy (NPCs own stations in your sectors, produce goods, and pay you lots of taxes, which you use to buy stuff from them to produce ships at your shipyards). If you do not own the sector, the NPC owners might not allow you to place maybe more than ~5 production modules per sector, for example, so to get around these restrictions, you would need to diversify where you set up stations, add more production modules anyways and risk loss of reputation, or conquer the sector and make your own rules.

TLDR version:
Two things which would make sector ownership a meaningful goal are taxes and workforce limits per sector. Along with workforce limits would be rebalancing of workforce requirements on stations, and ways to restrict unlimited building in sectors to prevent too few available workers. It would add a lot of incentive for players to have the goal of owning sectors. I think changes such as these could greatly benefit the end game of X4. If these changes are beyond the scope Egosoft is willing to introduce, I hope a talented modder would see the potential for these ideas.

The only downside I see is that these changes could seriously screw up a game in progress, so it would likely require a game restart. It would therefore be good if existing games would not be subject to these changes, but any new game would follow these new set of rules.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Imperial Good » Fri, 19. Apr 19, 04:23

Restricting workforce makes no sense. The universe population is easily in the hundreds of billions lore wise so there is no reason one could not stuff 100k people in a sector easily.

Later down the line I would like to see more city manager aspects when it comes to work force. Including having to keep them happy, pay them and potentially earn money back from them by selling them other products. However I just am the sort of person who likes city management and building games so this might not be a popular idea.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Faustov » Fri, 19. Apr 19, 11:37

Taxation is theft!

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Tomonor » Fri, 19. Apr 19, 14:53

I strongly agree with a tax system, not only do we need a money sink (because current player operations do seem way too lucrative right now), but to give a base for the sector/system ownership.

Easily put, if you have stationary property in a sector (space station), you pay tax. If you own a sector, you may set the tax rate that should come from potential station owners. The higher the taxes, the less likely your sector will be populated leading your sector's economy to a halt (unless of course you planned it to be self-sufficient).
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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 20. Apr 19, 02:45

Tax would be too easily abused. To take ownership of most sectors one just needs to nuke down the admin module of the single defence platform in them while a station with your own admin module exists anywhere in the sector. Instead of hindering the player, the AI would just give them more money.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Falcrack » Sat, 20. Apr 19, 05:40

Imperial Good wrote:
Sat, 20. Apr 19, 02:45
Tax would be too easily abused. To take ownership of most sectors one just needs to nuke down the admin module of the single defence platform in them while a station with your own admin module exists anywhere in the sector. Instead of hindering the player, the AI would just give them more money.
Well then that would put you in a state of war with the faction, and would have to fight over sector control. As it should be.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Horux » Sat, 20. Apr 19, 12:05

In my opinion before implementing cool features for sector owners, becoming the owner has to be somehow challenging.
At the moment it is far too easy to conquer a sector. In a universe with this far developed races there are not much reasons why sectors are not claimed by the factions. Only reason is if they are not prifitable, which means they are far away, heavily crowded by pirates or they have no value to own them. But at the moment you only need to plop a admin centre and done, and all sectors have value, asteroids or good position.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by pref » Sat, 20. Apr 19, 15:09

I'd like to see the ability to define my rules in my sector, and the ability to enforce those rules without going full war on a faction.

Like (dis)allow X race's military/trade actions or production in my space.
If a ship starts a fight, does a trade, or starts a build without permission then let the game flag them so i can kill those without a race wide reputation loss. Should only get temp rep loss against those specific objects and subordinates while they are in my sector.

The taxation and workforce changes i'm not so sure about as they would reduce income during the startup phase, and radically increase it in later game while the player already is wealthy.
That would make late game activities even more pointless, and harder to balance the overall experience of progress.

Sector ownership change should need me have at least 2x more stations/modules in a sector then anyone else on top of having more admin modules. It's way too easy now.
Maybe add a higher multiplier for xenon, as they don't need much infrastructure to build ships.
And the conditions should be displayed in the UI somewhere so we don't need to guess (count of enemy stations/admin modules vs my own, how much more is needed for ownership change).

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 20. Apr 19, 19:10

Falcrack wrote:
Sat, 20. Apr 19, 05:40
Well then that would put you in a state of war with the faction, and would have to fight over sector control. As it should be.
You just take a minor reputation loss. The reputation lost for killing 1 module.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by Sam L.R. Griffiths » Sat, 20. Apr 19, 19:28

I disagree with the principle of imposing taxes on either the NPCs or PCs with ONE exception - the current build plot tax should apply to NPCs building "with permission" (i.e. without hostile intent) in a player owned sector. Such stations built with permission should contribute to the current owner's defence too - no buying a plot then building admin centres/defence platforms which would contribute to sector take over for example. Any admin centres/defence platforms built on purchased plots would have to be destroyed before the licensing faction loses ownership.

As for artificial limits on sector population or number of build plots, again I disagree. As I do wrt increasing the necessity of station populous. There is perhaps ONE aspect I would perhaps like to see changed - have the station docks populated in terms of both personnel and variety based primarily on what station workforce is recruited. With un-inhabited station there should perhaps be "occasional" individuals passing through based on what NPC ships dock there. With populated stations - the main dock populous should be dictated primarily by the habitation modules. Heavily populated stations with few docks should be heaving with activity, the more docks to populous/visitors then the quieter the station.

Despite the OP's claims to the contrary, there are already sufficient reasons to set up shop in multiple sectors IMO.
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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by grapedog » Thu, 7. May 20, 07:08

we certainly need to be able to set rules.... i have like 6 HOP oddy's in my sector, just wrecking any other ships they don't like, such as PAR and ARG.... it's great for getting loot drops, but I'm really annoyed with it. I am planning on taking the rep hit and cleaning them out, but it would be nice to be able to set rules in my sector to back up my actions, so the NPC factions would know if they want to transit my sector or do business, they must do so while also playing nice with the other factions.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by leoriq » Thu, 7. May 20, 09:06

grapedog wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 07:08
we certainly need to be able to set rules.... i have like 6 HOP oddy's in my sector, just wrecking any other ships they don't like, such as PAR and ARG.... it's great for getting loot drops, but I'm really annoyed with it. I am planning on taking the rep hit and cleaning them out, but it would be nice to be able to set rules in my sector to back up my actions, so the NPC factions would know if they want to transit my sector or do business, they must do so while also playing nice with the other factions.
There is no such mechanism for any sector owner. The only way faction X (PAR for example) can prohibit entry of faction Y's (TEL for example) ships into their space is war.
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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by grapedog » Thu, 7. May 20, 09:50

leoriq wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 09:06
grapedog wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 07:08
we certainly need to be able to set rules.... i have like 6 HOP oddy's in my sector, just wrecking any other ships they don't like, such as PAR and ARG.... it's great for getting loot drops, but I'm really annoyed with it. I am planning on taking the rep hit and cleaning them out, but it would be nice to be able to set rules in my sector to back up my actions, so the NPC factions would know if they want to transit my sector or do business, they must do so while also playing nice with the other factions.
There is no such mechanism for any sector owner. The only way faction X (PAR for example) can prohibit entry of faction Y's (TEL for example) ships into their space is war.
I don't want to deny entry, but I do want the freedom to police my own sector without penalty. I want to apply a penalty to factions fighting each other in my sector. If HOP comes into a sector owned by me, and starts blowing up my ARG friends ships, I want to be able to kick them out, and when I say kick them out, i want to destroy them without penalty, or minimal penalty.

They finally left, but for many hours today, they had a fleet of 6 Oddy's, an Aux ship, and multiple M and S ships, in my sector, hanging out around my Shipyard and Defense Platform, just killing anyone they wanted... mostly ARG and PAR.

I want the choice and ability to enforce the peace in my sectors. I'm not trying to avoid rep loss for just killing enemy ships... but if they're in my sector murdering their little hearts out, i want to penalize them, with minimal or no loss to my standing with them.

I'd be happy too with a Comm option where i Comm them and tell them to leave my sector, and then they actually leave, and don't just come right back in.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by aurelcourt » Thu, 7. May 20, 10:46

+1 for more options and control over what happens in our sector, so we'd WANT to own a sector !!


1) I like the idea of taxes (a % of sales, and why not the others taxes mentionned above) which would apply to us as well indeed if we build in another faction's sector

2) I'd love to see tolls : like a flat amount of credits you'd charge for entering your sector, configurable for S/M/L and civil/military (that would apply to us as well !). We could apply different tolls to different factions we like or dislike

3) also it would make sense to restrict access to your sector to military/civil ships of different factions. I'm happy to let my friends roam with capital ships in my sector, not really other factions I dislike. So if I decide : they have no "right" to enter, they'll be spotted if there's an adv satellite at the gate (for example) and my ships "policing" the sector will go hunt them. That would give a real purpose to the policing ships


In summary : it should cost us to build in other faction's sectors (but it has advantages too, for sure), and be really beneficial to have our own sector :-)

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by leoriq » Thu, 7. May 20, 12:36

grapedog wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 09:50
I don't want to deny entry, but I do want the freedom to police my own sector without penalty. I want to apply a penalty to factions fighting each other in my sector. If HOP comes into a sector owned by me, and starts blowing up my ARG friends ships, I want to be able to kick them out, and when I say kick them out, i want to destroy them without penalty, or minimal penalty.
Unfortunately, there is no such mechanism for any sector owner either.
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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by capitalduty » Thu, 7. May 20, 12:45

I really dislike the idea of taxes in game and also in real live (LOL), I find more interesting to apply some restrictions on my own sectors like for example (cannot construct stations, ships, mine, travel, pirate or fight inside of one of my territories without consequences for the faction I choose) also think workforce should never be restricted because can have to much of a impact on players that really not like conquest or establishing own bases. Could be interesting to have some kind of response from factions for having sectors...for example is you grow to big your enemys may do alliances to fight you or do more effort on attacking your assets, is you are to weak your allies will protect your assets. Maybe will be interesting that having some sector do a passive benefit for the faction that owns it...for example having argon prime have your workforce grow faster, having a Scale Plate Green adds bonus to all damage on xenons...just some ideas.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by werewolves? » Thu, 7. May 20, 12:48

grapedog wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 09:50
leoriq wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 09:06
grapedog wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 07:08
we certainly need to be able to set rules.... i have like 6 HOP oddy's in my sector, just wrecking any other ships they don't like, such as PAR and ARG.... it's great for getting loot drops, but I'm really annoyed with it. I am planning on taking the rep hit and cleaning them out, but it would be nice to be able to set rules in my sector to back up my actions, so the NPC factions would know if they want to transit my sector or do business, they must do so while also playing nice with the other factions.
There is no such mechanism for any sector owner. The only way faction X (PAR for example) can prohibit entry of faction Y's (TEL for example) ships into their space is war.
I don't want to deny entry, but I do want the freedom to police my own sector without penalty. I want to apply a penalty to factions fighting each other in my sector. If HOP comes into a sector owned by me, and starts blowing up my ARG friends ships, I want to be able to kick them out, and when I say kick them out, i want to destroy them without penalty, or minimal penalty.

They finally left, but for many hours today, they had a fleet of 6 Oddy's, an Aux ship, and multiple M and S ships, in my sector, hanging out around my Shipyard and Defense Platform, just killing anyone they wanted... mostly ARG and PAR.

I want the choice and ability to enforce the peace in my sectors. I'm not trying to avoid rep loss for just killing enemy ships... but if they're in my sector murdering their little hearts out, i want to penalize them, with minimal or no loss to my standing with them.

I'd be happy too with a Comm option where i Comm them and tell them to leave my sector, and then they actually leave, and don't just come right back in.
I destroyed their fleet in the end and it was only a -1 rep hit

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by grapedog » Thu, 7. May 20, 12:58

werewolves? wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 12:48
grapedog wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 09:50
leoriq wrote:
Thu, 7. May 20, 09:06


There is no such mechanism for any sector owner. The only way faction X (PAR for example) can prohibit entry of faction Y's (TEL for example) ships into their space is war.
I don't want to deny entry, but I do want the freedom to police my own sector without penalty. I want to apply a penalty to factions fighting each other in my sector. If HOP comes into a sector owned by me, and starts blowing up my ARG friends ships, I want to be able to kick them out, and when I say kick them out, i want to destroy them without penalty, or minimal penalty.

They finally left, but for many hours today, they had a fleet of 6 Oddy's, an Aux ship, and multiple M and S ships, in my sector, hanging out around my Shipyard and Defense Platform, just killing anyone they wanted... mostly ARG and PAR.

I want the choice and ability to enforce the peace in my sectors. I'm not trying to avoid rep loss for just killing enemy ships... but if they're in my sector murdering their little hearts out, i want to penalize them, with minimal or no loss to my standing with them.

I'd be happy too with a Comm option where i Comm them and tell them to leave my sector, and then they actually leave, and don't just come right back in.
I destroyed their fleet in the end and it was only a -1 rep hit
and if it was a -1 rep hit only, i might be OK with that. but I've seen multiple times when cleaning up problematic allies ships who are causing trouble, they'll also randomly flip some of their other ships hostile too.

they were causing problem for the argon in Second Contact II, so i went and cleaned out about 4 or 5 destroyers. A relatively large chunk of them in pontifex's claim, nowhere near the action in second contact, also went hostile and started attacking and killing my trade ships transiting the area.

and there is a mechanic in the game already, where if I am attacking a TEL ship in ARG space, and they are friends, I can lose double faction. it's why everyone recommends capping allies ships in un-owned space, so you don't get the double rep hit. I want something to happen to the faction that attack my friends in my sectors. I've no idea how they should implement it, but they should implement something, so that actually owning a sector is worthwhile. it's one of many things they could implement for sector ownership, otherwise, what is the point... aside from the very small benefit of illegal wares, that are legal only in your own sector.... which is very minor.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by nikoli grimm » Thu, 7. May 20, 13:10

I do like the ability to have your own police force once you own a sector, but besides making various things illegal (like solar cells or water) just from a humor standpoint, I see little use of it. Once I own a sector I should have the ability to set prices for new builds. The other races charge me to build in their sector, but I apparently am giving away real-estate...

Maybe all factions charging ships a nominal fee for traversing their space unless they own a station in that sector that they've paid for. (Say 1000 credits, flat rate for wear and tear of that systems resources per visit, player or NPC.)

Not that very many build in a sector that I own, just two stations in 85 hours of play, and one of them is a defense platform. You'd think that if the Xenon just wiped out 16 stations someone would rebuild, (even if the sector is under new ownership,) once I've spanked the Xenon and sent them packing.

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Re: Sector Ownership in 3.0

Post by RodentofDoom » Fri, 8. May 20, 05:29

Falcrack wrote:
Sat, 20. Apr 19, 05:40
Imperial Good wrote:
Sat, 20. Apr 19, 02:45
Tax would be too easily abused. To take ownership of most sectors one just needs to nuke down the admin module of the single defence platform in them while a station with your own admin module exists anywhere in the sector. Instead of hindering the player, the AI would just give them more money.
Well then that would put you in a state of war with the faction, and would have to fight over sector control. As it should be.
Not at all.

A bunch of [Spacesuit Bombs] launched whilst space-walking next to the Admin-Module results in a temporary "we don't like you for that" in just the same way using EMP's to steal blueprints does.
2 Minutes later you're back to +x Relationship rating and the sector is now permanently yours.

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