Buying ships from AI (now THAT is mean)

[Ramokthan]

I just started a new game. (again, duh)

I ordered an S class fighter ship (my first) from argon wharf.
Of course it has hull parts and engine part shortage... i expected this already so i assinged traders to provide the resources till my ship is built.

My ordered ship is first in line in the build queue, so i thought it wont take long.

I was wrong. The AI actually IGNORES the Queue to build SMALLER ships (queued after my ship was already 1st in queue in front of my ship in queue) which it has already sufficient resources for, decreasing the resources again so my ordered ship will be never built.

This is goddamn mean...

[Falcrack]

And again egosoft, yet another example of why your queue system is so much worse than a simple first come, first served system where there shipyard simply waits until it has resources to build the first ship in line, rather than skip ahead ships to the front of the queue. You think it is a logical solution to get the shipyards busy, but it's really not that logical at all.

[Psukhomanteia]

I think a simple solution would be to have ships at the beginning of the queue get whatever resources that are available allocated to them. Once they have all of that particular resource allocated they need, the next ship in line can start receiving the parts. This keeps the first in line ships as the priority since they will always get first dibs on parts but ships later in the queue can build if they receive all of the parts they need even if the first in line ship is still waiting for something that the lower ship did not need.

Once the needed parts are delivered, they immediately go to the first ship in the queue and it can start building since it already had the other parts it needs reserved.

Just my 2 cents

[Ramokthan]

Haha, for the record i managed to make it happen to build my ship finally, after i FLOODED the warf with resources faste then it could build the other ships, so it had finally the resources spare to build my ship. But hell this doesnt feel fair.

At least i am not that much dependent of the AI wharfs anymore since next goal is building an own wharf after i finally got enough firepower not to die vs a M class pirate/khaak/xenon helplessly.

[graphicboy]

I think a simple solution would be to have ships at the beginning of the queue get whatever resources that are available allocated to them. Once they have all of that particular resource allocated they need, the next ship in line can start receiving the parts. This keeps the first in line ships as the priority since they will always get first dibs on parts but ships later in the queue can build if they receive all of the parts they need even if the first in line ship is still waiting for something that the lower ship did not need.

Once the needed parts are delivered, they immediately go to the first ship in the queue and it can start building since it already had the other parts it needs reserved.

Just my 2 cents

I assumed that's what was happening, and the queue skips around because it needs something the other ships don't... Do we know it's not doing this already?

[Falcrack]

I think a simple solution would be to have ships at the beginning of the queue get whatever resources that are available allocated to them. Once they have all of that particular resource allocated they need, the next ship in line can start receiving the parts. This keeps the first in line ships as the priority since they will always get first dibs on parts but ships later in the queue can build if they receive all of the parts they need even if the first in line ship is still waiting for something that the lower ship did not need.

Once the needed parts are delivered, they immediately go to the first ship in the queue and it can start building since it already had the other parts it needs reserved.

Just my 2 cents

I assumed that's what was happening, and the queue skips around because it needs something the other ships don't... Do we know it's not doing this already?

If your ship needs 100 engine parts to get started and the shipyard has 90, you ship will not start getting built, and will not reserve any engine parts. If there is another ship in the queue behind your that only requires 80 engine parts, and all the other needed wares are present, it will be skipped ahead of your ship, now guess what, shipyard only has 10 engine parts!

As it slowly refills engine parts, the next ship it can build (invariably one with low engine parts requirements) will again be built before your ship. Thus begins a vicious cycle of other ships using up the wares that are in short supply before your ship can ever get around to using them.

If you flood the wharf with a massive amount of engine parts, all at once, there is a chance you can break out of this cycle and get your ship built, but even then it is no guarantee, because ships in the queue are so quick to get started the second there is enough ware to start them.

It is a really bad system, please reconsider it, egosoft.

[Kernel Panic]

Back in 2.21 I started buying my ships with the minimal configuration allowed and then sending to EQ's to outfit them. They get built much faster that way even if you do have wait while for the resources to get delivered sometimes. Once I built my own production complex I didn't need to worry about it until I restarted while trying to test for other bugs. Something else I can share is that M class ships suck for autotrading because less than half of the trade runs they do use more than 75% of their cargo holds. At this point in time for UT or Station autotrading you are better off using a large group of Courier Vanguard ships than a few Vulture Sentinels because they not only level up and fly faster (with the right engines), they will not waste time. Of course the cost difference between the two models is less than 1M credits so logically (emotionally?) you will (think you) want to go with the bigger cargo hold but then you have slower ships flying mostly empty. At this point in time I think (I am only one data point after all) M class traders only reach max usefulness in hostile territory where the extra shields let them flee combat. Test it and see for yourselves.

[Ramokthan]

I have to admit this is very smart and i will do that next time too.

But this feels odd having to do this to get your ship ever built.

I mean not everyone (assuming X4 handles all NPCs as individuums) in the universe has already traders and is able to supply the wharf with critical resources to get at least one of your ships built.

[photomankc]

Yep. I do the same. Order a batch with just engines and shields and outfit them at docks. Doesn’t help with hull/engine part shortages but it can with weapon/shield/missile component shortages.

Really the system makes sense from the races standpoint. Why should they hold up their ship production entirely because you want a nice Frigate and they need fighters? Then again, I’m the player and my happiness is paramount!

I just learned to let it go and work on supplying the shortage components for the long-haul rather than expecting the next batch of engine parts to go right into my ship.

[Ramokthan]

No, sorry that doesnt make sense...

Because for example even TEL ships are built first before my ship, on an ARGON Wharf.

If the argon want to utilize that to not halting their ship building they would not prioritize other factions ships over the players too.

additionally with that logic they hardly build M ships for themselves as well since S ships always need less resources.

It would really make sense for Player and Factions to do FiFo.

If you think production would come to an halt too often because of FiFo... well think again... it just stockpiles till the next ship is able to be built... then the next in queue follows.... no slow down... just fair queuing.

[Mantrae]

And now... with the "standard logic"...
ARG get a defense force wiped. They queue the whole bunch of ships. Yhen a second defense force is wiped before the first one is finished reconstruct. They queue the second bunch of ship. Repeat the thing 3 more time.
Then you come, player, and ask for 10 autotraders and 15 autominers.

...
Oops?
Chose your option : you have to wait 3h ingame to get your ships. Ooor. The IA have to wait and get half of they sectors wiped by a Xenon I rampage. Ooor. Both options.
With yhe "standard logic" and a shortage of ANY ship component, you get the option 3 each time.

[Falcrack]

And now... with the "standard logic"...
ARG get a defense force wiped. They queue the whole bunch of ships. Yhen a second defense force is wiped before the first one is finished reconstruct. They queue the second bunch of ship. Repeat the thing 3 more time.
Then you come, player, and ask for 10 autotraders and 15 autominers.

...
Oops?
Chose your option : you have to wait 3h ingame to get your ships. Ooor. The IA have to wait and get half of they sectors wiped by a Xenon I rampage. Ooor. Both options.
With yhe "standard logic" and a shortage of ANY ship component, you get the option 3 each time.

Ooor the Ai can only have so many ships in the queue at a time, so the queue does not get so long that there is a forever wait time when the player want to order something, but neither do the players get it instantly, having to wait to clear the queue from the AI first.

[graphicboy]

And now... with the "standard logic"...
ARG get a defense force wiped. They queue the whole bunch of ships. Yhen a second defense force is wiped before the first one is finished reconstruct. They queue the second bunch of ship. Repeat the thing 3 more time.
Then you come, player, and ask for 10 autotraders and 15 autominers.

...
Oops?
Chose your option : you have to wait 3h ingame to get your ships. Ooor. The IA have to wait and get half of they sectors wiped by a Xenon I rampage. Ooor. Both options.
With yhe "standard logic" and a shortage of ANY ship component, you get the option 3 each time.

Ooor the Ai can only have so many ships in the queue at a time, so the queue does not get so long that there is a forever wait time when the player want to order something, but neither do the players get it instantly, having to wait to clear the queue from the AI first.

Artificial / arbitrary limits are no good when it's supposed to be lifelike. Just do the parts reservations mentioned earlier and all will be well.

[RedeyeStorm]

Which would be solved by having civilian and militairy wharfs/shipyards. As a player you are a civilian so you can only order there. If a sector defense force gets wiped it would order on the militairy facilities.

Would also create a greater demand on suplies which might create another problem entirely.

[LegionOfOne]

There are 'civilian' shipyards : the shipyard and wharf of the [ALI]. They can only build civilan ships : builders and miners and traders.
That means they have a lot fewer orders than the main factions' shipyards, so are better supplied and build your ships faster. They can build ships of all factions, but only the Vanguard models, I think.
The Shipyard is in Sacred Relic, 'south' of Pious Mists, and the Wharf in Trinity Sanctum VII.

I used to buy all my civilian ships there until we finally got our own shipyards.
But then managing a network of factories to keep your shipyard supplied is a chore.

Which is why I made a mod to turn this chore into child's play : Mules and Warehouses.
With Mules you can automate all the supply chain entirely (except mining), and just build ships, make money and attack people !