2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

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photomankc
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2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by photomankc » Mon, 17. Jun 19, 19:52

So I’m a couple days into a new 2.5 start in game hours. This start has been nothing but combat with huge invasion fleets of Ks at I-Zara and Hewas Twin and even H-Choice. With some cheat funds I’ve been able to get enough firepower together to stop out Matrix 9 and put a hurt on Scale Plate Green. The issue is that even as I’ve been busy as galactic defense force alpha, the races are still having huge shortages at warfs and shipyards. The thing is these parts are not rare. They are abundant now (other than weapon components: there is only one Superfluid Coolant station in this universe). They just are not being purchased and supplied to the shipyards. I see stations with 3 and 4K of Hull parts yet shipyards are still constantly low.

Is the AI just poor at filling it’s own needs? My new Ward was getting supplies ok but the main shipyards were not. It’s leading to nearly every race slowly seeming to lose all their combat ships. Even Argon seems to be grinding down in H-Choice.

I am modded with Rise of Ossian Raider and Better Kill Credit which was an oversight when I started. So I’m willing to accept that those could be having some unwanted side-effects. But this just seems fundamental. Maybe it just takes longer to work itself out than I recall?

zarrazee
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by zarrazee » Mon, 17. Jun 19, 22:56

I started a new 2.50 game last week and have similar issues. Also, I struggle to get NPCs to deliver wares to build my stations, even though I offer 100% and have funds transferred - I've had to buy 5 trade ships to buy the resources myself.

I imagine if a faction is losing a lot of ships in combat, the AI focuses on building small fighters, rather than trade ships to keep the economy going.

Ramokthan
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Ramokthan » Tue, 18. Jun 19, 01:58

The AI is dumb... u are the only smart being in that universe... abuse that...

Simple as that.

If there is shortage and otherwhere is supply, trade is and make a buckload of money.

If there is shortage and otherwhere its not supplied... producie it and make a fortune.

This is how X series work...

But with X4 you also get the possibilities to sell ships at shipyards which will make you TRULY rich if there is any war going...

I guess i will have my first 10 billion before day 4 this run, just because there is war EVERYWHERE (this means Xenon, the Ossian Raiders are pretty passive, i dont think i will keep that mod past this savegame.)

Mantrae
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Mantrae » Tue, 18. Jun 19, 03:04

Plus...
You don't have to go "galactic defense force alpha". Xenon's don't take over sectors... well, not in my game at least. They do contest, but really don't go wiping and taking over sectors.

Kind of desapointing for a "major threat", imo. Hope this kind of thing gonna be fixed in 3.0.
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cubebix9000
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by cubebix9000 » Tue, 18. Jun 19, 07:14

Mantrae wrote:
Tue, 18. Jun 19, 03:04
Plus...
You don't have to go "galactic defense force alpha". Xenon's don't take over sectors... well, not in my game at least. They do contest, but really don't go wiping and taking over sectors.

Kind of desapointing for a "major threat", imo. Hope this kind of thing gonna be fixed in 3.0.
Oh really? my xenonx have taken over...................... all of haktivas choices, morning star, slient witness, hewas twins and they just took bright promise aswell and now in the process of taking Argon Prime but i am playing with mods the faction war enhancer etc and now i spotted 1 obsidian raider flagship flying somewhere :O hope not to me xD. but i have a giant space fortress defending the gate so im all good \o/.

And as HOP and PAR are being supplied by me they have managed to hold off the xenon but Resource shortages are an understatement, even 3 of my 300mill+ stations cannot keep up lol xD their shipyards are always empty i mean thats a good thing ^^. but argon and TEL are not being supplied by me as they are to far away but i am building complexes there now hopefully that will allow them to fight back now because they are just targets atm even thogh i have filled argon and tel shipyards fully 5 times they are still loosing the war xD. Guess im going to have to choose a faction to side with soon and help them take over the universe then.......... destory them and i become the universe overlord \o/

photomankc
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by photomankc » Tue, 18. Jun 19, 16:08

Not to be a jerk, however:

I have played X3 and X3AP before so I am aware that the economy is supposed to benefit from player involvement. In my 2.21 start it did just that. Building a few stations helped to plug some shortage gaps and get things moving smoothly but the shipyards were not crippled even without my help after about 30hrs or so. Some sectors were combat hot-spots and needed assistance but largely the races seemed to contain the Xenon to a reasonable degree but could not effectively invade them. The shipyards could function but not crank out huge numbers. I did not build my Warf until I was over 150hrs into the game and started on clearing out Xenon at around 175hrs. Invading was heavy work and needed money and ships to burn so that made me transition to building a Warf to bring in major money.

That's fine. I enjoyed being allowed to explore and build my trade fleet without having 15 K's busy throughout the universe slowly trashing the map. This weekend the Argon have now ground to a halt as well. They can't produce destroyers now and since I've been grinding away on Scale Plate Green, there are 6 K's and an I chewing up H-Choice and the Argon fleet is largely gone. On my way to SP-Green I had to take on 6 K's in Hewas's Twin and while a second fleet moved to mop up Matrix 9 they had to take on 4 in I-Zura. Company Regard to Hewas Twin is scoured pretty well clean in the Xenon travel path. This started about 6hrs into the game. Same kind of numbers in wave after wave after wave. Had I started from a standard game-start there would have been really nothing to do but shrug my shoulders and watch the world burn. Even with the ship building gone in those Xenon sectors they still camp the gate at I-Zura so if you are not posted there they will destroy every transport that tries to enter.

Early game doesn't have the kind of resources to combat this and the player doesn't have the capitol to build every support factory and the trade ships needed to move the product right off the bat. Further more, there is neither a shortage of the needed wares (as I mentioned) nor a shortage of NPC ships to deliver it. Argon Prime is clogged with transports yet one sector over is a Hull Part factory with 12,000 units while the shipyard sits starved of hull parts producing nothing. Yes, I have setup some transports to Autotrade hull parts and weapon components but those are using the same logic the AI should be capable of to locate resources, buy them, and deliver them. Why can't the NPC ships handle this? I don't really want to spend my time micromanaging the supply chain for 8 or so shipyards and warfs just to keep the races in the game and I didn't have to last time. This is what's bugging me right now. The factories have stabilized and have product, the NPC's simply don't seem interested in moving it.

This has been a VERY noticeable change from my 2.21 start. I don't care much for it. If this was timed to kick off after 50 to 70hrs that would actually be neat. Something to pose a serious challenge mid game when you have some resources built, It sucks when it kicks off at hour 6 with waves of 5+ K's that takes the player in a Corvette 10 minutes each to destroy only to find another wave in the next sector, then another, and another.

I'm just curious if others are seeing this change or if my last start was just a fluke? Is the Xenon invasion intensity variable? Do they sometimes invade in 2's and 3's in one game and in others in 5's and 6's? If so I guess that makes sense and provides variety to re-play. The NPCs inability to supply wares baffles me a bit though. That has not been a feature of my prior play in X3 nor my first 2.21 X4 game.

LegionOfOne
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by LegionOfOne » Tue, 18. Jun 19, 18:14

photomankc wrote:
Tue, 18. Jun 19, 16:08
Argon Prime is clogged with transports yet one sector over is a Hull Part factory with 12,000 units while the shipyard sits starved of hull parts producing nothing. Yes, I have setup some transports to Autotrade hull parts and weapon components but those are using the same logic the AI should be capable of to locate resources, buy them, and deliver them. Why can't the NPC ships handle this?
Because, let's be honest here, the vanilla trade scripts are well-meaning but quite dreadful.
They try to calculate waaay too many things, slow down the game and spend a lot of time idling between runs, just 'calculating' their trade routes.
And after 2 minutes of heavy thinking they pick up 50 e-cells (although I hear 2.5 did improve the volumes they trade, if not the time they take to choose or the pertinence of their choice).
I really don't get why the calculations for trade have to be so damn complicated, look at the vanilla trade scripts, they are endless.
After all, NPC factions don't even have budgets, just unlimited cash, and most trade is between stations of the same faction anyway, so why should profits matter so much to them ? :gruebel:

But it is a bit easy to 'backseat-code' a game, and bash without offering something constructive.

Which is why I am doing my own trade scripts, that focus on speed, efficiency, critical supplies and full cargoes (I call them Mules).
Once I replace every trade script used by the AI, I'm sure things will clear up :D

The only reason the Xenon didn't take over in my current game is my shipyard that is always and automatically supplied and building, and that is keeping most NPC factions 'in the race' against the Xenon.
Left to themselves, their economies seem to deadlock easily, and are full of inefficiencies.

One solution I hope to implement is Mobile Trade Stations, think XL trade ships that move around from system to system buying low and selling high.
They might be able to absorb excess production and supply critical shortages that way, and help the general circulation of wares.

Mantrae
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Mantrae » Wed, 19. Jun 19, 05:09

cubebix9000 wrote:
Tue, 18. Jun 19, 07:14
Oh really? my xenonx have taken over [...] but i am playing with mods the faction war enhancer
As I've said. They do nothing. Don't compare vanilla with moded game. Ofc a modded game gonna be breaking the vanilla balance. It's obviously what's intended when you mod your game.
I suppose nobody complain about balance in egosoft forum when they have a moded game. I hope nobody is complaining. Cause it's not Egosoft's work to check modder's work.
They can choose to do it, but it's a bonus.

So.
photomankc wrote:
Mon, 17. Jun 19, 19:52
This start has been nothing but combat with huge invasion fleets of Ks at I-Zara and Hewas Twin and even H-Choice.
And.
photomankc wrote:
Mon, 17. Jun 19, 19:52
I am modded with Rise of Ossian Raider
Is a huge problem, maybe, but not for Egosoft. Here a tips : uninstall the mod, and maybe (I've said "maybe") the problem gonna be resolved. If not, then post. And eventually, suggest.

That was my 2 cents. No offense.

BTW, as I've posted, I agree with the fact Xenon or Ka'aks ar'nt dangerous, and moding your game can be a solution (I personally prefer see Egosoft do something about it). But again, don't come on Egosoft forum complain about issue and broken balance if you have a moded game.
EVENTUALLY if a mod SOLVE an issue, it could be an idea to post about it... but generally, when a mod solve an issue, it cause a problem elsewhere.
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photomankc
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by photomankc » Wed, 19. Jun 19, 17:01

Mantrae wrote:
Wed, 19. Jun 19, 05:09
That was my 2 cents. No offense.
None taken... Truely. My previous game included this mod it and it did not impact Xenon aggression there but maybe that was a fluke. Also more than I am asking EgoSoft to "fix" anything, I'm asking a couple of things from the community. I'm a bit of a wind-bag though I guess :)

1.) Have others noticed any major increase in Xenon Invasion fleets. Prior in 2.2 I got 1 or 2 K's and very rarely an I even with RoOR mod. Now 6 or more K's are not uncommon and I've seen 8 or 9 in a system sometimes. That seems new. There is also a steady stream of P's and M's that seem to camp certain locations no matter where they are produced. I also had not seen that before.

2.) Has there been an increase in time that Warfs/Shipyards are resource deadlocked on resources for others? For my last game things got stable around the 30hr mark and ordering ships was no longer a problem at the rate I could afford to buy them. In this start NPCs seem to jam up around gates idling while my autotrade ships seem to function well. Despite this log-jam of trade ships, parts in shortage are not being brought in to the Warfs/Shipyards very quickly. I'm curious if this is experianced by others.

I understand EgoSoft can't guarantee my experience or use my game as a basis for change. However, I'm wondering if others who are perhaps not modded have also run into this? My suggestion still stands. It should be possible to either find a middle ground between "Xenon are no threat", and "mass extinction event inavasions" :) I even welcome the latter if that can be timed to happen at some randomized hour after say 30 or 40 so the player is given a serious threat to counter and some warning that they need to get working on defense. I probably will make an un-modded start. That was my intention this time, but I forgot to turn them off before starting out. Won't be real soon though. Time is limited.

Mantrae
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Mantrae » Wed, 19. Jun 19, 18:49

In my vanilla game, I've not seen more than a I and 3 K attacking (by "attacking", I mean "roaming doing nothing") at Ianamus Zura IV.
That's the biggest Xenon's "fleet" I've seen so far.

As for Ka'ak, nothing more than clusters (not so confident about this word as translation of "1M3 and 3M5") spawning randomly from random encounter events.
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Karmaticdamage
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Karmaticdamage » Thu, 20. Jun 19, 14:05

The faster you supply shipyards and wharfs, the faster they pump out ships and get them killed. The only way to get the economy stable is to eliminate the HOP.

photomankc
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by photomankc » Thu, 20. Jun 19, 17:08

Karmaticdamage wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 14:05
The faster you supply shipyards and wharfs, the faster they pump out ships and get them killed. The only way to get the economy stable is to eliminate the HOP.
LOL, I'm noticing that they have a hard time not shooting each other right out of my warf. HOP and ANT are going nuts killing each other right off the production line. It's comical if they complete at the same time and start shooting before they even get out of the bay. Good for making money but I can't enjoy being near my Warf for all the radio taunting and crying going on. It would be nice if I could cut off one faction or the other from my warf, not just all or none.

LegionOfOne
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by LegionOfOne » Thu, 20. Jun 19, 19:56

photomankc wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 17:08
It would be nice if I could cut off one faction or the other from my warf, not just all or none.
You can : 2.5 introduced blacklists. Blacklist the entire HOP from trading with you, problem solved. Unless you really need to sell them some wares.

Derp
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Derp » Thu, 20. Jun 19, 21:22

photomankc wrote:
Mon, 17. Jun 19, 19:52
I see stations with 3 and 4K of Hull parts yet shipyards are still constantly low.

Is the AI just poor at filling it’s own needs?
NPC traders prioritize profit. Hull parts trading makes crap profit, so it's one of the last things they ship. If the rest of the economy is going fine it'll be the bottleneck, but not a game-ending one.

Falcrack
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Falcrack » Thu, 20. Jun 19, 22:14

LegionOfOne wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 19:56
photomankc wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 17:08
It would be nice if I could cut off one faction or the other from my warf, not just all or none.
You can : 2.5 introduced blacklists. Blacklist the entire HOP from trading with you, problem solved. Unless you really need to sell them some wares.
Nope. You cannot allow one faction to buy ships from you while preventing others, even with 2.5. Blacklists feature does not touch the ability of factions to order ships from your wharf. You either sell to all, or sell to none.

That being said, there was a developer on Steam who indicated that the ability to sell ships to only specific factions was being worked on.

Buzz2005
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by Buzz2005 » Fri, 21. Jun 19, 10:18

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 22:14
LegionOfOne wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 19:56
photomankc wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 17:08
It would be nice if I could cut off one faction or the other from my warf, not just all or none.
You can : 2.5 introduced blacklists. Blacklist the entire HOP from trading with you, problem solved. Unless you really need to sell them some wares.
Nope. You cannot allow one faction to buy ships from you while preventing others, even with 2.5. Blacklists feature does not touch the ability of factions to order ships from your wharf. You either sell to all, or sell to none.

That being said, there was a developer on Steam who indicated that the ability to sell ships to only specific factions was being worked on.
Martian Marvin a german modder did propose a script that keeps ships from shooting anybody when they leave the shipyard (at least thats what I was able do deduce :))

I hope they implement something like that and not only to restrict shipbuilding by factions, I want that HOP money 8)
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.

photomankc
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by photomankc » Fri, 21. Jun 19, 15:14

Derp wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 21:22
photomankc wrote:
Mon, 17. Jun 19, 19:52
I see stations with 3 and 4K of Hull parts yet shipyards are still constantly low.

Is the AI just poor at filling it’s own needs?
NPC traders prioritize profit. Hull parts trading makes crap profit, so it's one of the last things they ship. If the rest of the economy is going fine it'll be the bottleneck, but not a game-ending one.
Right now I feel like the Dutch Boy! No engine parts - Made big engine part factory. Now there's no hull parts - Made big hull part factory and smart chip factory. Now there are no weapon components - made big weapon component factory. Now there are still no smart chips - I'm building 2 more big smart-chip factories. AAAAnnnnnddddd now Advanced Electronics are out, so I'm building a station for those. Meanwhile the HOP, ARG and ANT keep re-filling my pockets but emptying my Warf storage in the mass grave out front.

Oh well, I made a tidy profit. I'm cutting them all off for a while. I'd like to build my own stuff every now and then!

I hope they are working to let us favor one or more factions and exclude others. That would, I think, slow the meat grinder of the player warf down a little and would be welcome.

radcapricorn
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by radcapricorn » Fri, 21. Jun 19, 15:17

photomankc wrote:
Fri, 21. Jun 19, 15:14
Meanwhile the HOP, ARG and ANT keep re-filling my pockets but emptying my Warf storage in the mass grave out front.
Do HOP and ARG build ships at your Wharf at the same time, and then start a firefight right inside the docking area? :)

photomankc
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by photomankc » Fri, 21. Jun 19, 15:35

radcapricorn wrote:
Fri, 21. Jun 19, 15:17
photomankc wrote:
Fri, 21. Jun 19, 15:14
Meanwhile the HOP, ARG and ANT keep re-filling my pockets but emptying my Warf storage in the mass grave out front.
Do HOP and ARG build ships at your Wharf at the same time, and then start a firefight right inside the docking area? :)
Yes. They damage my station too.

LegionOfOne
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Re: 2.5 Economy Self Sustaining?

Post by LegionOfOne » Fri, 21. Jun 19, 19:43

Falcrack wrote:
Thu, 20. Jun 19, 22:14
Nope. You cannot allow one faction to buy ships from you while preventing others, even with 2.5. Blacklists feature does not touch the ability of factions to order ships from your wharf. You either sell to all, or sell to none.
Blast it. I thought it worked, HOP didn't build at all in my shipyard.
Thanks for the info.

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