Are there any confirmed plans on War?

[Brachra]

Just wondering if there was any announcements, roadmaps etc. on "war".
The game has come a long way and I'm enjoying it immensely but i feel like its a little too easy? You can build 4-5 destroyers and some fighters and prettymuch take out any large "Powers"
Are they going to address this? make it so factions start pumping out ships and actually fighting back? Xenon trying to take over other sectors? Any of this?

Thanks all!

Ps. not complaining just curious

[spankahontis]

Just wondering if there was any announcements, roadmaps etc. on "war".
The game has come a long way and I'm enjoying it immensely but i feel like its a little too easy? You can build 4-5 destroyers and some fighters and prettymuch take out any large "Powers"
Are they going to address this? make it so factions start pumping out ships and actually fighting back? Xenon trying to take over other sectors? Any of this?

Thanks all!

Ps. not complaining just curious

Putting aside the bugs that Factions really don't have an appetite for expansion at the moment (I'm in hopes this will be fixed by 3.0).

But yeah, I can't see the AI taking into account your strategy to just storm your way into it's space and being able to crunch numbers and think of a way to counter it.. It's not in it's power to do that (Unless of course it Spawned a fleet of equal size to yours); not going to happen IMHO.

But still you make a valid point. What CAN they do to make the AI of a warring Faction seriously think about it's Defence/Counter-Attack capabilities?

- Fortify it's Jumpgates blocking every possible entry point into their space with defence platforms covered in so many defense modules that large fleets are ripped to shreds upon entry.
- The Faction increases it's Ship Building capability and factories sprout up faster than normal?
- The more territory they lose, the more their Factory/Ship building program increases.
- Similar to when you take several Xenon Sectors in X3, the God Engine Spawns Xenon Ships at an ever greater frequency to counter your expansion.
- Only this greater Frequency will be entrepreneurs wanting to set up a factory in that Factions Space, getting CV Ships to set up, buy the resources and build them the stations they need to greatly increase their ships later.

But in the end, there is no AI (Currently) that could out think you on a game of this scale. Most Difficulty levels in games are just Buffs on the AI's Units or Debuffs on the Player, because creating a much smarter learning AI that can observe your tactics and conjure up a counter is way beyond game developers right now.

[Slashman]

Putting aside the bugs that Factions really don't have an appetite for expansion at the moment (I'm in hopes this will be fixed by 3.0).

But yeah, I can't see the AI taking into account your strategy to just storm your way into it's space and being able to crunch numbers and think of a way to counter it.. It's not in it's power to do that (Unless of course it Spawned a fleet of equal size to yours); not going to happen IMHO.

But still you make a valid point. What CAN they do to make the AI of a warring Faction seriously think about it's Defence/Counter-Attack capabilities?

- Fortify it's Jumpgates blocking every possible entry point into their space with defence platforms covered in so many defense modules that large fleets are ripped to shreds upon entry.
- The Faction increases it's Ship Building capability and factories sprout up faster than normal?
- The more territory they lose, the more their Factory/Ship building program increases.
- Similar to when you take several Xenon Sectors in X3, the God Engine Spawns Xenon Ships at an ever greater frequency to counter your expansion.
- Only this greater Frequency will be entrepreneurs wanting to set up a factory in that Factions Space, getting CV Ships to set up, buy the resources and build them the stations they need to greatly increase their ships later.

But in the end, there is no AI (Currently) that could out think you on a game of this scale. Most Difficulty levels in games are just Buffs on the AI's Units or Debuffs on the Player, because creating a much smarter learning AI that can observe your tactics and conjure up a counter is way beyond game developers right now.

You know I used to think that this was the case but I'm not so sure now. In the game Endless Legend the AI was always quite weak. The developers told us that they couldn't make the AI any better because of the games complexity and the fact that all the factions were asymmetrical. So we trundled along with the subpar AI for a good long while until all of a sudden this guy LeaderEnemyBoss comes along and gains access to the files of the game and makes some truly magnificent changes to the whole games AI structure. All of a sudden I can't beat the game on Hard anymore. The Ai is using all of its resources intelligently and even the ordinarily weakest factions are a major threat. His ELCP mod changed the whole game for me and a lot of others.

So that tangent was to say that its not always a matter of making an intelligent AI, just one that reacts better and does things more logically. So you don't have to write the next Deep Blue. Just a tighter set of parameters for the AI.

[mr.WHO]

War is implemented and working fine...but almost completely blocked by one bug - indestructible stations.

If this bug will be fixed then the war will kick off again.

[Karmaticdamage]

Incomplete station's aren't indestructible, its just that the NPC faction's can't deal with them. Currently only the player can advance a war front by destroying the defense platforms of one of the factions. Once you've flipped the sector to one faction or the other, they will eventually build defense platforms in the adjacent systems to take them over as well. In one of my playthroughs I helped the HOP push all the way through teladi space. The empires don't seem to care about production factories, once the defense platforms are down they move on to the next system. Here is a guide on how to destroy incomplete stations viewtopic.php?f=146&t=415498.

[Brachra]

War is implemented and working fine...but almost completely blocked by one bug - indestructible stations.

If this bug will be fixed then the war will kick off again.

Im 208 Hours into a save and xenon have sent maybe... 5 ships into another sector?
All of the main powers are sitting comfortable in their own sectors nobody is fighting at all.... Not sure its working fine

[Brachra]

Just wondering if there was any announcements, roadmaps etc. on "war".
The game has come a long way and I'm enjoying it immensely but i feel like its a little too easy? You can build 4-5 destroyers and some fighters and prettymuch take out any large "Powers"
Are they going to address this? make it so factions start pumping out ships and actually fighting back? Xenon trying to take over other sectors? Any of this?

Thanks all!

Ps. not complaining just curious

Putting aside the bugs that Factions really don't have an appetite for expansion at the moment (I'm in hopes this will be fixed by 3.0).

But yeah, I can't see the AI taking into account your strategy to just storm your way into it's space and being able to crunch numbers and think of a way to counter it.. It's not in it's power to do that (Unless of course it Spawned a fleet of equal size to yours); not going to happen IMHO.

But still you make a valid point. What CAN they do to make the AI of a warring Faction seriously think about it's Defence/Counter-Attack capabilities?

- Fortify it's Jumpgates blocking every possible entry point into their space with defence platforms covered in so many defense modules that large fleets are ripped to shreds upon entry.
- The Faction increases it's Ship Building capability and factories sprout up faster than normal?
- The more territory they lose, the more their Factory/Ship building program increases.
- Similar to when you take several Xenon Sectors in X3, the God Engine Spawns Xenon Ships at an ever greater frequency to counter your expansion.
- Only this greater Frequency will be entrepreneurs wanting to set up a factory in that Factions Space, getting CV Ships to set up, buy the resources and build them the stations they need to greatly increase their ships later.

But in the end, there is no AI (Currently) that could out think you on a game of this scale. Most Difficulty levels in games are just Buffs on the AI's Units or Debuffs on the Player, because creating a much smarter learning AI that can observe your tactics and conjure up a counter is way beyond game developers right now.

Realistically I was just stating that the factions could even go as far as to create & prepare an army that they have on standby. It seems like if i invade a sector there should be some kind of force to try and stop me. not the piddly 2-3 ships that sometimes respond.

[spankahontis]

War is implemented and working fine...but almost completely blocked by one bug - indestructible stations.

If this bug will be fixed then the war will kick off again.

So far, all i've seen in my playthrough is the Xenon take the Teladi Sector of Company Regard.
Neighboring Hewa's Twin is seeing allot of Xenon activity, whether this will fall? Who knows?

But without Player assistance, the Major Factions will not expand, it's not just indestructable stations, they simply don't have the concept that they need to build a massive Fleet in order to take down a Defense Platform with allot of weapons.
If they built large fleets of several destroyers, maybe 10 or more? with a carrier full of fighters. Those Platforms would take a hammering. And we might see Territory change hands?

You know I used to think that this was the case but I'm not so sure now. In the game Endless Legend the AI was always quite weak. The developers told us that they couldn't make the AI any better because of the games complexity and the fact that all the factions were asymmetrical. So we trundled along with the subpar AI for a good long while until all of a sudden this guy LeaderEnemyBoss comes along and gains access to the files of the game and makes some truly magnificent changes to the whole games AI structure. All of a sudden I can't beat the game on Hard anymore. The Ai is using all of its resources intelligently and even the ordinarily weakest factions are a major threat. His ELCP mod changed the whole game for me and a lot of others.

So that tangent was to say that its not always a matter of making an intelligent AI, just one that reacts better and does things more logically. So you don't have to write the next Deep Blue. Just a tighter set of parameters for the AI.

BlackRains mod did wonders for fixing Rebirth's Civil War mechanic, we actually see ships taking sectors, destroying stations a dynamic universe.
So it's amazing what modders can do.. Only drawback to Rain's Mod is it builds Ships endlessly.. 300 hours into my game, PMC's Shipyard in Ascendancy was littered with hundreds of Destroyers, real FPS hit on my PC. There seemed to be no limit cap on how many ships the station could produce, eventually PMC would overwhelm the Heart of Albion through sheer scale of numbers.
Never played Endless Legend, maybe some research into this modder could yield results into fixing X4's problem with ship deployment?

Realistically I was just stating that the factions could even go as far as to create & prepare an army that they have on standby. It seems like if i invade a sector there should be some kind of force to try and stop me. not the piddly 2-3 ships that sometimes respond.

Yeah, be nice for them to just create a large Fleet and when they're done making it? It is directed straight to the Enemy Defense Platform.
Or even for them to create a Rapid Response Fleet that is programmed upon shipyard creation to only respond to a Friendly Defense Platform being attacked.

But I doubt it's that simple, otherwise Egosoft will of probably done it?

[Brachra]

War is implemented and working fine...but almost completely blocked by one bug - indestructible stations.

If this bug will be fixed then the war will kick off again.

So far, all i've seen in my playthrough is the Xenon take the Teladi Sector of Company Regard.
Neighboring Hewa's Twin is seeing allot of Xenon activity, whether this will fall? Who knows?

But without Player assistance, the Major Factions will not expand, it's not just indestructable stations, they simply don't have the concept that they need to build a massive Fleet in order to take down a Defense Platform with allot of weapons.
If they built large fleets of several destroyers, maybe 10 or more? with a carrier full of fighters. Those Platforms would take a hammering. And we might see Territory change hands?

You know I used to think that this was the case but I'm not so sure now. In the game Endless Legend the AI was always quite weak. The developers told us that they couldn't make the AI any better because of the games complexity and the fact that all the factions were asymmetrical. So we trundled along with the subpar AI for a good long while until all of a sudden this guy LeaderEnemyBoss comes along and gains access to the files of the game and makes some truly magnificent changes to the whole games AI structure. All of a sudden I can't beat the game on Hard anymore. The Ai is using all of its resources intelligently and even the ordinarily weakest factions are a major threat. His ELCP mod changed the whole game for me and a lot of others.

So that tangent was to say that its not always a matter of making an intelligent AI, just one that reacts better and does things more logically. So you don't have to write the next Deep Blue. Just a tighter set of parameters for the AI.

BlackRains mod did wonders for fixing Rebirth's Civil War mechanic, we actually see ships taking sectors, destroying stations a dynamic universe.
So it's amazing what modders can do.. Only drawback to Rain's Mod is it builds Ships endlessly.. 300 hours into my game, PMC's Shipyard in Ascendancy was littered with hundreds of Destroyers, real FPS hit on my PC. There seemed to be no limit cap on how many ships the station could produce, eventually PMC would overwhelm the Heart of Albion through sheer scale of numbers.
Never played Endless Legend, maybe some research into this modder could yield results into fixing X4's problem with ship deployment?

Realistically I was just stating that the factions could even go as far as to create & prepare an army that they have on standby. It seems like if i invade a sector there should be some kind of force to try and stop me. not the piddly 2-3 ships that sometimes respond.

Yeah, be nice for them to just create a large Fleet and when they're done making it? It is directed straight to the Enemy Defense Platform.
Or even for them to create a Rapid Response Fleet that is programmed upon shipyard creation to only respond to a Friendly Defense Platform being attacked.

But I doubt it's that simple, otherwise Egosoft will of probably done it?

Yeah, be nice for them to just create a large Fleet and when they're done making it? It is directed straight to the Enemy Defense Platform.
Or even for them to create a Rapid Response Fleet that is programmed upon shipyard creation to only respond to a Friendly Defense Platform being attacked.

But I doubt it's that simple, otherwise Egosoft will of probably done it?

Even if they don't go after defense platforms as a default behavior and instead only do so when trying to invade or take back sectors (That would be nice as well) At least defend your own sectors! Somehow the xenon have built defense platforms in places like Holy Vision and I'm pretty sure there's one sitting in one of the grand exchanges.
this Defense platform in Holy Vision is sitting smack dab next to the shipyard, a few defense platforms and a ton of factories..... what did they just decide it would be a nice thing to let the xenon come build? Nobody put up even the least bit of fight.

I have 8x Nova vanguards parked outside of the gate from Hatikvas choice to Tharkas cascade. they have been there for around 30 hours and just kill everything. they like to send one ship at a time through that gate.

Second contact II has like 2 Xenon defense platforms in it also built right near other stations.. Not a single xenon ship in sight. Nor any HOP ships fighting xenon.

I understand the Limitations of AI even in today's capabilities. But i feel like there's got to be something that could be done. It's not the same thing at all but most of Paradox's games like Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron. While broken at times have invasion mechanics, diplomacy mechanics, economy mechanics. I fully believe a whole lot more could be done than is being done to make it not seem like one big happy family of different alien races all living in near-harmony trading endlessly to no end goal.

[spankahontis]

Even if they don't go after defense platforms as a default behavior and instead only do so when trying to invade or take back sectors (That would be nice as well) At least defend your own sectors! Somehow the xenon have built defense platforms in places like Holy Vision and I'm pretty sure there's one sitting in one of the grand exchanges.
this Defense platform in Holy Vision is sitting smack dab next to the shipyard, a few defense platforms and a ton of factories..... what did they just decide it would be a nice thing to let the xenon come build? Nobody put up even the least bit of fight.

I have 8x Nova vanguards parked outside of the gate from Hatikvas choice to Tharkas cascade. they have been there for around 30 hours and just kill everything. they like to send one ship at a time through that gate.

Second contact II has like 2 Xenon defense platforms in it also built right near other stations.. Not a single xenon ship in sight. Nor any HOP ships fighting xenon.

I understand the Limitations of AI even in today's capabilities. But i feel like there's got to be something that could be done. It's not the same thing at all but most of Paradox's games like Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron. While broken at times have invasion mechanics, diplomacy mechanics, economy mechanics. I fully believe a whole lot more could be done than is being done to make it not seem like one big happy family of different alien races all living in near-harmony trading endlessly to no end goal.

The Xenon Behavior tends be that it builds in it's neighboring sector, if it takes a Sector connecting to numerous Sectors then it'll build in all those sectors until it takes them too.
If it's not following that pattern of behavior? Must be a bug.

[Brachra]

Even if they don't go after defense platforms as a default behavior and instead only do so when trying to invade or take back sectors (That would be nice as well) At least defend your own sectors! Somehow the xenon have built defense platforms in places like Holy Vision and I'm pretty sure there's one sitting in one of the grand exchanges.
this Defense platform in Holy Vision is sitting smack dab next to the shipyard, a few defense platforms and a ton of factories..... what did they just decide it would be a nice thing to let the xenon come build? Nobody put up even the least bit of fight.

I have 8x Nova vanguards parked outside of the gate from Hatikvas choice to Tharkas cascade. they have been there for around 30 hours and just kill everything. they like to send one ship at a time through that gate.

Second contact II has like 2 Xenon defense platforms in it also built right near other stations.. Not a single xenon ship in sight. Nor any HOP ships fighting xenon.

I understand the Limitations of AI even in today's capabilities. But i feel like there's got to be something that could be done. It's not the same thing at all but most of Paradox's games like Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron. While broken at times have invasion mechanics, diplomacy mechanics, economy mechanics. I fully believe a whole lot more could be done than is being done to make it not seem like one big happy family of different alien races all living in near-harmony trading endlessly to no end goal.

The Xenon Behavior tends be that it builds in it's neighboring sector, if it takes a Sector connecting to numerous Sectors then it'll build in all those sectors until it takes them too.
If it's not following that pattern of behavior? Must be a bug.

Yeah the only real xenon activity im getting is lots of Defense platforms being built in random places. And Them sending 1-2 ships at at a time into hatikvas which are usually instantly destroyed.

[spankahontis]

Even if they don't go after defense platforms as a default behavior and instead only do so when trying to invade or take back sectors (That would be nice as well) At least defend your own sectors! Somehow the xenon have built defense platforms in places like Holy Vision and I'm pretty sure there's one sitting in one of the grand exchanges.
this Defense platform in Holy Vision is sitting smack dab next to the shipyard, a few defense platforms and a ton of factories..... what did they just decide it would be a nice thing to let the xenon come build? Nobody put up even the least bit of fight.

I have 8x Nova vanguards parked outside of the gate from Hatikvas choice to Tharkas cascade. they have been there for around 30 hours and just kill everything. they like to send one ship at a time through that gate.

Second contact II has like 2 Xenon defense platforms in it also built right near other stations.. Not a single xenon ship in sight. Nor any HOP ships fighting xenon.

I understand the Limitations of AI even in today's capabilities. But i feel like there's got to be something that could be done. It's not the same thing at all but most of Paradox's games like Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron. While broken at times have invasion mechanics, diplomacy mechanics, economy mechanics. I fully believe a whole lot more could be done than is being done to make it not seem like one big happy family of different alien races all living in near-harmony trading endlessly to no end goal.

The Xenon Behavior tends be that it builds in it's neighboring sector, if it takes a Sector connecting to numerous Sectors then it'll build in all those sectors until it takes them too.
If it's not following that pattern of behavior? Must be a bug.

Yeah the only real xenon activity im getting is lots of Defense platforms being built in random places. And Them sending 1-2 ships at at a time into hatikvas which are usually instantly destroyed.

Strange cause at a point they were spewing out into Hatikvah's Choice from that Xenon Sector, they had 2 defence platforms and Xenon Destroyers guarding the gates to the Highway, Xenon I's as well.
But I guess all the Factories i've been building for Argon and Antigone has helped them out produce the Xenon in that Sector that they are just a minor hindrance now.

They still haven't expanded into that Xenon Sector at account that the Hatikvah Free League have no Shipyards, Egosoft might want to look into that?

[IronSquid501]

I was just thinking the same thing. As soon as things start getting interesting and you're building your own warships, the game's over. You've won. The AI cannot possibly stand in your way once you have some level of military might behind you.

[ScandyNav]

I've lost my hope that it can be fixed by Egosoft. So, i'm playing with mods.
Right now with Faction War/Economy Enhancer plus Rise of the Ossian Raiders situation is this: Ianamus Zura and almost all Hewa's twin become xenon teritory. They claimed and cleared them. Pressure is starting on Trinity Sanctum and Bright Promise.
It is kind a interesting right now. And it's only 40h.
Sadly it's just a Xenon and Ossian activity. Major factions are still dormant.

[Killjaeden]

I understand the Limitations of AI even in today's capabilities. But i feel like there's got to be something that could be done. It's not the same thing at all but most of Paradox's games like Europa Universalis, Hearts of Iron. While broken at times have invasion mechanics, diplomacy mechanics, economy mechanics.

Let's call it for what it is though: There is no "AI" in X4 (nor any other X). It's only state machines, written by someone. "if faction attacks me, do <some action>, else <do something else>". Many games do it like this, it's not a bad thing to do. Or better said - there are no real alternatives - Neural Network can't just learn a game with high complexity willy nilly. If it could, it would also have replaced real life military command, real life economists etc... - Only current viable way for complex games are state-machines, where neural networks control the priorities of each action in the state-machine.

High level state machines (those that control faction behavior) do not face the same computing limitations as, for example, autopilot/ collision avoidance for NPC ships - because only few instances of them run, and they only have to update every 5-15 minutes (so very very slowly).

As a state machine designer, you are giving the "virtual general/ leader" the rules how/what he has to "think" and how he has to react in every given situation. The more complex the Game Systems are, the better the designer has to be.
To write a good high level state machine for faction control, you need to be good at strategy, you need to have a very good understanding of economic and military theory in general, and also have the practical experience in the specific game.
To write a good low level state machine for fleet combat/ combat routines, you need to be good at tactics, a good understanding of the combat mechanics and tactic theory in general, and also have practical experience in the specific game.
Not only that, you need to be able to analyze your own planning/decision making process and "model" this as a state machine.

Just because anyone is a developer of a game doesnt make them a good strategist or tactician... And without practical experience, all their "beautiful" plans on the drawing board might just be totally inadequate in practice.
So in the end, for "AI" as we know it in games, the only limitation here is how good the designers of that state machine are, how many resources they are given and how effective their tools are...

So it's amazing what modders can do..

Modders are most often players, that have quite a bit of experience... Something which i think developers are often lacking (they dont play their own game long enough. As dev you'd mostly do focus testing, which can give you tunnel vision). And sometimes its good to remember developers are people too... situations like "this is the way, there is no other way worth pursuing" can happen, when in fact there is, but the dev simply dismissed it or didnt think of it.

[Nort The Fragrent]

What War ?

[Brachra]

Resurrecting this old post because My question still stands!
A lot of updates have come since i made this thread and am curious if anyone could summarize if any new "War" mechanics have been added?

[GCU Grey Area]

Resurrecting this old post because My question still stands!
A lot of updates have come since i made this thread and am curious if anyone could summarize if any new "War" mechanics have been added?

In my current 3.0b game HOP started with a fleet of at least 40-50 capitals which they used to annihilate Argon Prime (every single station smashed), while the Argons were distracted by a substantial Xenon invasion (around a dozen or so capitals) through Hatikvah's Choice. Does that count?

Still a few rough edges, but then it is a beta. Most notably, if a sector ever goes neutral (i.e. all defence stations belonging to the sector's current owners are destroyed before the invading force build their own) everyone seems to forget the sector exists. For quite a while (several weeks) Argon Prime was changing hands on an almost daily basis (fluctuating between Argon, Xenon & HOP control) until one of those factions messed it up & now no one wants it, not even the Argons.

However, bugs aside, has still been a ton of fun trying to reverse the HOP tide by building a truly gargantuan shipyard in Antigone Memorial (primarily built to replace Argon & Antigone fleets) &, more recently, a pair of heavily armed defence stations guarding the north & south gates in Second Contact II, to ensure trade between the few remaining Antigone & Argon sectors can flow without disruption by HOP or Xenon forces.