Am I the only one, who think, that current capships are bad?

[GDS_dmitry]

When I first saw cap ships in X4, I was absolutely confused. Because Behemoth (Odyssey and others) looks like a frigate. Number of turrets is disgusting, speed and maneuverability are not suited for a capital class ship (reminds me an Anaconda from Elite Dangerous which is again - more a corvette size ship). With mods it looks like and old M6 corvette from X3.

Devs, where are beautiful ships from X Rebirth? Arawn, Taranis, Fulmekron, Olmekron, Balor, Lyranea and etc?
And even do not try to tell me, that it is impossible to port them. You even didn't try to do this? You are not students with a little experience, you're a professional dev team (or not?).

I read some stupid things here about balance and sizes and want to comment:

So, are there any problems to slightly enlarge or make smaller ships from X Rebirth to fit with X4 ones? NO, even I could do this in 3D modelling program. And I don't think there is any need of that, Arawn is almost the same class and size as current Colossus, no special modding required. See ported ships from XR to X4.

Docks and modules? X Rebirth ships have MANY empty spaces to place all this stuff. Arawn even has an outer dock already. Even in mods with ported ships from X Rebirth we can see, how it can be made. Not perfect, but it's possible.
Balance? Too many turrets on X Rebirth ships? That is exactly what I want (and expect) from a capital ship, not this nonsense from X4 ones. Because current cap ships in X4 can't even defend themselves because of:

• Lack of turrets. Seriously, destroyer (L) with 2 L and 5-6 M turrets? Are you kidding? Even X3 ships had more (not even counting from 8 to 10 forward main cannons).

• Turret weapons has a small damage output and long cooldowns. Combined with a poor number, we have a bad fire coverage of any section of the ship. Something is terribly wrong with aiming AI - there was no such problems in previous games. Turrets that only do a fraction of fixed weapon damage and cannot properly track and hit their target (we need better fire range like 15-20 km, see VRO mod), combined with shields that do not regen while a target is under fire, creates a nightmare scenario where the small and nimble fighter can take down larger targets with no threat to its well-being. Similar can be said of the efficiency of all large ships.

• Turrets has slow rotation, especially combined with capital ship good maneuverability (they look like frigates or corvettes from X3), when turrets often can't even properly track targets because ship turns too fast. Rotation speeds and inertia of big ships in X4 doens't match the fact these ships should be a lot slower. Now we have a situation like an existence of modern naval cruiser with a movement characteristics of a inflatable boat.

• Turret weapons has low range and can't effectively aim at targets.

Instead of complaining about X Rebirth ships, that have "too many" turrets, better to ask yourself why current ships in X4 have so low number of them and increase this number to match X Rebirth ships. I even do not want to start talking about poor VFX and SFX of weapons, explosions, engine streams and etc. Looks like a placeholders in a alpha game.

I don't understand, how we came from this (no mods at all): https://youtu.be/23YtF7NJQ0U
To this (with mods!): https://youtu.be/35hCgdw18TY

For me, it's unplayble for now without mods like VRO and custom modded ships. Devs, what happened to your design artist? Current ships in X4 in terms of design are the WORST ships in the series. X3 ships were a lot better in all aspects (and had many turrets too). There is a nice word I can see about current cap ships and overall design of the X4. It's called - degradation. Even in comparison with X Rebirth (which most players and fans hate). It's nonsense for me

[AquilaRossa]

I have built over two dozen destroyers to use as fleet leaders for fighters that patrol the border regions, or to protect my complexes. It was too much for my CPU so I reduced the fleets to one destroyer and 40 fighters. I ended up with 15 Teladi and one Argon destroyers spare and built a base to dock them all.

I noticed that 32 Perseus fighters armed with 2x S Beam can be detached and deal to a K or I at least as well as those 15 destroyers do. This is OOS though. The Xenon capital ships defend themselves a little better when I am there too (usually sitting on top in the blind spot). It makes fighters the most useful ship by far to me. Destroyers are just station killers for me. I send them on a circuit to destroy Xenon defence platforms in those border regions and then return to the base I built for them (I also gave the base shipyard facilities. Not for building, but so I can add mods to the destroyers without first having to send them to a shipyard).

I think what seems like nerfed destroyers might be a response to players saying they were OP in X3R. I remember piloting a Teladi Phoenix thru enemy sectors and letting flak leave a trail of destruction and ships i could claim behind me. Fun at first, but then there is no challenge. I am not sure what the balance should be, but I do think the AI needs to muster fleets better so all classes of ships work together as a fleet and support each other. Game is a constant WIP.

I have not tried the mod that ports the last game's capital ships because it comes as a pack that adds them all. i only want to try adding one at a time and seeing the effect on the universe if AI use them (does AI use them?).

[Max Bain]

You are not alone. A lot of people think like you, but there is not much we can do except hope that more mods will bring back more beautyful and bigger ships. In fact there is already a mod that imports some X:R ships into X4. I really hope that the devs will add some more big ships for the existing factions soon.
The ships for the next dlc do look promising btw.

[GDS_dmitry]

I have built over two dozen destroyers to use as fleet leaders for fighters that patrol the border regions, or to protect my complexes. It was too much for my CPU so I reduced the fleets to one destroyer and 40 fighters. I ended up with 15 Teladi and one Argon destroyers spare and built a base to dock them all.

I noticed that 32 Perseus fighters armed with 2x S Beam can be detached and deal to a K or I at least as well as those 15 destroyers do. This is OOS though. The Xenon capital ships defend themselves a little better when I am there too (usually sitting on top in the blind spot). It makes fighters the most useful ship by far to me. Destroyers are just station killers for me. I send them on a circuit to destroy Xenon defence platforms in those border regions and then return to the base I built for them (I also gave the base shipyard facilities. Not for building, but so I can add mods to the destroyers without first having to send them to a shipyard).

I think what seems like nerfed destroyers might be a response to players saying they were OP in X3R. I remember piloting a Teladi Phoenix thru enemy sectors and letting flak leave a trail of destruction and ships i could claim behind me. Fun at first, but then there is no challenge. I am not sure what the balance should be, but I do think the AI needs to muster fleets better so all classes of ships work together as a fleet and support each other. Game is a constant WIP.

I have not tried the mod that ports the last game's capital ships because it comes as a pack that adds them all. i only want to try adding one at a time and seeing the effect on the universe if AI use them (does AI use them?).

1. I don't think, current destroyers can kill something if you're flying nearby (if you in another sector, then only raw stats are calculated - only then they can actually do something). Even stations. Because it takes too much time. Destroyers spend too much time for a constant repositioning (why and for what cause?) and most shots from theirs' main forward weapons just fly somewhere else, not in a station. And there is a big problem, when these ships try to attack shipyard dock structures. They may not fire at all, or fire with a single turret to station's dock "structural cage". When 2 destroyers fighting, overall high mobility and rotation speeds of ships (seriously, capships must not move that fast! It's not corvettes or frigates) make it very difficult to hit each other with main cannons or plasma turrets. Buggy AI and pathfinding are another issue.

2. Ships from mod can be used by AI, or can't. You can choose that (there is an addition mod called Flagships, which makes it possible to use by AI). But this makes no sense, because other X4 capital ships could not compete with mod ones. I think, that entire class of capital ships need serious rework in X4.

[Imperial Good]

When I first saw cap ships in X4, I was absolutely confused. Because Behemoth (Odyssey and others) looks like a frigate. Number of turrets is disgusting, speed and maneuverability are not suited for a capital class ship (reminds me an Anaconda from Elite Dangerous which is again - more a corvette size ship). With mods it looks like and old M6 corvette from X3.

Technically they are L ships, not XL ships.

Devs, where are beautiful ships from X Rebirth? Arawn, Taranis, Fulmekron, Olmekron, Balor, Lyranea and etc?

With exception of the Balor, those are all XL ships. Currently the only XL battleship is the Xenon I. The Xenon I should not disappoint you seeing the ridiculous number of turrets it has.

There are rumours that the Split will be given an XL battleship.

And even do not try to tell me, that it is impossible to port them. You even didn't try to do this? You are not students with a little experience, you're a professional dev team (or not?).

Porting them is not the issue. Making them fit is. They were hybrid Argon/Terran ships. Additionally the turret count for some of them was on the excessive.

Balance? Too many turrets on X Rebirth ships? That is exactly what I want (and expect) from a capital ship, not this nonsense from X4 ones. Because current cap ships in X4 can't even defend themselves because of:

Well you can always use an imbalanced mode and get the experience you want. I do not think the game developers would want to ruin balance for everyone just to please a few.

The X4 destroyers are more than capable of defending themselves. The only exception is against the player but then again nothing can really protect themselves from the player, as was the case in XR where the player could literally run circles around everything.

Lack of turrets. Seriously, destroyer (L) with 2 L and 5-6 M turrets? Are you kidding?

The Odysseus has 2 L guns, 4 L turrets and 12 M turrets + 4 more M turrets from a docked M ship. That is a total of 2 guns and 20 turrets. Not bad for such a small ship...

Turret weapons has a small damage output and long cooldowns. Combined with a poor number, we have a bad fire coverage of any section of the ship.

Still more than enough to near instantly melt most S ships with Pulse Laser turrets. The key is to use PAR turrets since they rotate 10% faster than the other factions for the same DPS output.

Something is terribly wrong with aiming AI - there was no such problems in previous games.

It appears that the predictive aiming does not factor in your ship's current movement speed while the fired projectiles do. Hence unless you are stationary there is a fair chance they will miss.

combined with shields that do not regen while a target is under fire

They regen when not having taken damage for <<1 second. For example you will regenerate some shield between plasma shots.

creates a nightmare scenario where the small and nimble fighter can take down larger targets with no threat to its well-being. Similar can be said of the efficiency of all large ships.

Only when player flown. My personal destroyers have no problem swatting S ships. The only issue is with XS defence drones as those are so small they are practically broken (everything struggles to hit them).

Turrets has slow rotation, especially combined with capital ship good maneuverability (they look like frigates or corvettes from X3), when turrets often can't even properly track targets because ship turns too fast. Rotation speeds and inertia of big ships in X4 doens't match the fact these ships should be a lot slower. Now we have a situation like an existence of modern naval cruiser with a movement characteristics of a inflatable boat.

Pulse Lasers turn more than fast enough, capable of 360 in under 3 seconds. Also using PAR turrets is important as they have +10% faster rotation.

[sh1pman]

It appears that the predictive aiming does not factor in your ship's current movement speed while the fired projectiles do. Hence unless you are stationary there is a fair chance they will miss.

This should’ve been fixed on day one tbh.

[tomchk]

Devs, where are beautiful ships from X Rebirth? Arawn, Taranis, Fulmekron, Olmekron, Balor, Lyranea and etc?

I think you make some valid points and I bet some of the developers agree. I hope they will bring much more over from X:R (ships, sectors, etc.). They clearly can. Please consider this more, Egosoft!

[GDS_dmitry]

...

1. That somehow justifies the miserable design?
2. Will hope for more XL ships.
3. What is the problem of using existing placeholders of existing Hit/MA, PA and jet/LR turrets for X4 modules ? Of course with a size correction.
4. I use only ships from mods. And as I see, you completely ignored my point. I've stated, not that I want just to port X Rebirth and other ships, but to balance the existing X4 assets to be in line with X Rebirth (and other "ported") ships.
5. Odysseus not bad, I agree, but it's the only adequate destroyer. And nevertheless again, it does not fix broken weapons and AI which can't let this ship to demonstrate his strong abilities.
6. Pulse lasers and other bullet type weapons are disgusting here because of aim. It takes near to 2-5 minutes to take down only 1 fighter with such guns. Sorry, but beams now more effective. And better just to install VRO mod and do not have such headache.

Answer to other questions: use paranid destroyer and paranid turrets. I know about turn speed, thanks. Great. Where is variety ? So, we have only one partially good destroyer and turrets (Destroyer? Maybe frigate, considering number of weapons? Because Taranis - is a real destroyer. Succellus too. Not Behemoth and Odyssey). You just proved my statements. 90% of X4 content is broken or working really bad, not as expected.

[RoverTX]

The series had entered total power creep territory when it came to the number of turrets and because of it fighters where worthless. Not to mention it slowed battles way down.

In X3, never played rebirth that much, there is no point to carriers because fighters where blown away so quickly that they were a waste of credits.

Now that Destroyers aren’t the be end end all, fighter and thus carriers are now worth it. Also it helps that fighters can and do flee when their shields get low.

[mr.WHO]

IMO the destroyers are the only class that is fine - they have good amount of turrets and well placed so they can cross-fire many turrets on single target.

The problem is horrible for XL ship - they have the same or slightly more turrets, but htey are spread out of much bigger hull and they are all M-size turrets, which are rather weak (a few turrets together have problem to take out a single light fighter).
Also for 90% of cases M-turrets have to small range to engage anything when you order XL carrier to attack as they stick outside turret range.


IMO the there sohuld be following changes:
- extend the range of all turrets by 50%
- add 1-2 more L-turrets and about 10 more M-turrets to XL ships - this will still make them less focused than a destroyer, but they woudl at least have weapons to do actual combat.
- boost M-turrets dammage by 50% (as they are right now they can't even pierce fighters shields).


Optionally I think that it also wouldn't hurt if frigates would get 2 more turrets to plug the coverage blind sports.

[Pesanur]

When I first saw cap ships in X4, I was absolutely confused. Because Behemoth (Odyssey and others) looks like a frigate. Number of turrets is disgusting, speed and maneuverability are not suited for a capital class ship (reminds me an Anaconda from Elite Dangerous which is again - more a corvette size ship). With mods it looks like and old M6 corvette from X3.

Technically they are L ships, not XL ships.

Devs, where are beautiful ships from X Rebirth? Arawn, Taranis, Fulmekron, Olmekron, Balor, Lyranea and etc?

With exception of the Balor, those are all XL ships. Currently the only XL battleship is the Xenon I. The Xenon I should not disappoint you seeing the ridiculous number of turrets it has.

There are rumours that the Split will be given an XL battleship.

And even do not try to tell me, that it is impossible to port them. You even didn't try to do this? You are not students with a little experience, you're a professional dev team (or not?).

Porting them is not the issue. Making them fit is. They were hybrid Argon/Terran ships. Additionally the turret count for some of them was on the excessive.

From the Rebirth encyclopedia regarding the Arawn:
"One of the largest ships currently in service by any know faction, the Arawn is a highly advanced carrier, designed and first lauched from Argon Prime. Its extensive weapons array - including plasma and particle weapons, as well as multi-purpose drone - give it an edge in all tactical situations."

So, it can be considered a battleship class.
Also isn't only that it isn't a hybrid ship like the Omicron ones, but it also was developed in Argon Prime, for what you might expect to it be present in X4.

[RoverTX]

IMO the there sohuld be following changes:
- extend the range of all turrets by 50%
- add 1-2 more L-turrets and about 10 more M-turrets to XL ships - this will still make them less focused than a destroyer, but they woudl at least have weapons to do actual combat.
- boost M-turrets dammage by 50% (as they are right now they can't even pierce fighters shields).


Optionally I think that it also wouldn't hurt if frigates would get 2 more turrets to plug the coverage blind sports.

In my experience M turrets damage fighters pretty well, they just don’t do much to a M ship.

If you increase M turret damage and range by 50% no fighters will not be able to escape them. You would effectively reduce their shields for use in boosting, while increasing the distance they need to flee.

Fighters will be worthless again. Which will mean that the advantages of a carrier are gone and they will end up being a worse Battleship.

Also carriers do not need a buff. A carrier with 30 fighters can take out 3 K faster than 6 destroyers ever could.
Also remember that carriers have far larger shields than destroyers. They are effectively meat shields that can quickly launch, recover, and resupply ships. Which includes reloading torpedoes!

[mr.WHO]

In my experience M turrets damage fighters pretty well, they just don’t do much to a M ship.

If you increase M turret damage and range by 50% no fighters will not be able to escape them. You would effectively reduce their shields for use in boosting, while increasing the distance they need to flee.

Fighters will be worthless again. Which will mean that the advantages of a carrier are gone and they will end up being a worse Battleship.

Also carriers do not need a buff. A carrier with 30 fighters can take out 3 K faster than 6 destroyers ever could.
Also remember that carriers have far larger shields than destroyers. They are effectively meat shields that can quickly launch, recover, and resupply ships. Which includes reloading torpedoes!

Not true - I regulary see carriers struggle to take out even the lgithesr of fighters - do you think a carrier turrets should need like 5 minutes to take out one scout?
The point with 30 carreirs is not valid - it doesn't matter what power is carrier fighter group r carrier shields - in real life they still field a defensive weapons as last resort. In X4 carrier turrets don't even work as a last resort again bunch of light fighters. Giving them a couple more turrets will make them less helpless.

Boosting M-turrets will not make fighters useless - currentlythey are OP because they are only class of ships (other than destroyers) that are working as intended.


Similar is with frigates - their main firepower comes from guns and drones, but their turrets are jsut plain useless to take anything other than single light fighter.

[Imperial Good]

Not true - I regulary see carriers struggle to take out even the lgithesr of fighters - do you think a carrier turrets should need like 5 minutes to take out one scout?

Scouts pose practically no threat to a Carrier as they only have 1S gun. They suffer from a similar problem to defence drones, they are so small and fast hitting them with anything is difficult.

My Colossus Vanguard has no issues swatting XEN S ships that pass by it in sector. As mentioned before, the key is to use PAR M Pulse Laser as PAR turrets rotate 10% faster.

Similar is with frigates - their main firepower comes from guns and drones, but their turrets are jsut plain useless to take anything other than single light fighter.

They are perfectly fine when used on the back of an Odysseus for an extra 4 M turrets. Frigates in general have problems due to how buggy and annoying to use defence drones are in sector. If you want to use a Frigate as a bomber then your only choice is the Gorgon which is also the fastest M ship in the game for some reason while having the same shielding as all the other frigates.

[mr.WHO]

Scouts pose practically no threat to a Carrier as they only have 1S gun. They suffer from a similar problem to defence drones, they are so small and fast hitting them with anything is difficult.
My Colossus Vanguard has no issues swatting XEN S ships that pass by it in sector. As mentioned before, the key is to use PAR M Pulse Laser as PAR turrets rotate 10% faster.

Are you serious? Carrier can't hurt scout and scout can't hurt carrier - is this situation seems fine to you? It's an XL carrier not a flying joke.
Also Xenon S is Xenon medium miner/freighter, so this doesn't prove that carriers are fine (and you probably speak about OOS combat).

They are perfectly fine when used on the back of an Odysseus for an extra 4 M turrets. Frigates in general have problems due to how buggy and annoying to use defence drones are in sector. If you want to use a Frigate as a bomber then your only choice is the Gorgon which is also the fastest M ship in the game for some reason while having the same shielding as all the other frigates.

Again, you suggest to use frigate in literally any other task than frigate should be used. They are FRIGATES, not attachable turrets. they are FRIGATES, not bombers (albeit this is related to second major topic - "X4 bomber sux at bomber job").

[taztaz502]

As i stated in another thread destroyers for me are just small frigates in X4, Frigates are just a hybrid of M6 and TM class ships from X3 and fighters for the most part all play the same role.

Wish there was more diversity in X4 and areas where certain class of ships shined, I remember in X3 i would set my bombers to be anti-missile ships which would just sit near my capital ships taking out any missiles/torpedoes with there own rapid missiles, or having an M7M Missile frigate pummel targets at long range using them more for artillery.

My frigates would be full of flak turrets to defend the carriers from incoming fighters/bombers while the fighters would be the main aggressors in my army launching into the fight only when i gave them the command.

Then TM ships would fly in and claim any abandoned ships/loot the battlefield, Destroyers for the most part in X3 were just decoration or to tank another destroyer if it got close enough. Unless you played Litcubes you would need them to use against the OCV.

[mr.WHO]

Well, this is why I say that destroyers are the only class that work fine - depending on their loadout they can be effective ant-fighter platform or anti-capital platform.
They are something better than X-Rebirth frigates (e.g. Balor, Stormvok), but fall short of X-Rebirth destroyers (e.g. Taranis, Olmekron, Fulmekron).

I feel the lack of proper XL battleships (equivalent of XR and X3 destroyers) in X4 (and no, Xenon I is not a proper battleship - comparing to it's X-Rebirth version it's a big joke, very powerful for X4 standards, but still a joke that could be disarmed with lone heavy fighter).

P.S. To be clear, I don't wnat to get back to X-Rebirth 100+ turret monsters, but I think that 35-45 turrets for XL ship should be enough (currently they have like 20-25).

[Solflame]

Basically, the I could use a buff and we could use proper XL battleships.

Honestly, I /like/ the fact that bigger ships start to have trouble with smaller ships. Means that you start needing combined fleets to deal with things. Though I wouldn't mind seeing the addition of a lot of S sized slots to larger ships for anti-fighter defense. Would it be super effective? No. Would it fill the sky with beautiful laser dakka? Yesssss.

[ScandyNav]

This whole discussion stumbles upon a wall of this comment:
viewtopic.php?f=146&t=418203#p4879391

At the moment, i dont see that we have this time to rework the old assets, sadly.

Existing ships will not receive an overhaul.

[Imperial Good]

Are you serious? Carrier can't hurt scout and scout can't hurt carrier - is this situation seems fine to you? It's an XL carrier not a flying joke.

It is a carrier. Not a Battleship. It is meant to have 40 S fighters and 10 M fighters loaded into it.

Also Xenon S is Xenon medium miner/freighter, so this doesn't prove that carriers are fine (and you probably speak about OOS combat).

I meant Xenon, S sized ship. The actual Xenon ships in that size are N and M. The Xenon S and P are M sized ships. The Xenon K and I are XL sized ships.

Again, you suggest to use frigate in literally any other task than frigate should be used. They are FRIGATES, not attachable turrets. they are FRIGATES, not bombers (albeit this is related to second major topic - "X4 bomber sux at bomber job").

Only because their main purpose, defence drones, is kind of broken at the moment. One has no control over when the drones are launched and no control over when they are recalled and they easily self destruct.

Basically, the I could use a buff and we could use proper XL battleships.

It already is the most powerful in sector ship in the game... In sector it massacres pretty much all NPC fighters and destroyers. It only loses OoS due to turret strip mechanics and its turrets not dealing anywhere near the in sector DPS they do.

Existing ships will not receive an overhaul.

They did not say that they will never receive an overhaul, just that they will not be receiving one in the near future (not scheduled). I guess they are trying to keep to a schedule with the first 2 DLCs, which means they cannot spare the man power to overhaul such ships. Specifically I think their ship creation resources are maxed out creating and modifying new ships for the Split DLC, and then for the DLC after that.