Quasar vs Eclipse vs Pulsar

[mr.WHO]

I might be missing something but Quasar seems noticably worse than other two:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... EBC7DBA21/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... DC0F19050/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ ... 87C3B717C/


Quasar seems the cheapest one, but throw just over 100k and you got a much more tanky Eclipse and only marginally slower and less agile.
Throw nearly 1mil and you got youself a Pulsar that is faster, stronger and has more dakka.


Ideas for better reballance:
Eclipse - nerf speed and agility a bit more, but add more missile storage (like +30) to turn it into dedicated fighter-bomber.
Quasar - boost speed a bit and agility quite a much, give it a +10 missile storage boost hull to 1900 (same as current Pulsar) to make it dedicated space superiority fighter.
Pulsar - nerf hull to 1700 (as current Quasar) or even more to make it high speed glass cannon.

[AquilaRossa]

I used the Eclipse as a player ship but have not tried the Quasar. I used the Pulsar recently until moving to a Nemesis. It's not only the extra firepower of the Pulsar, but the the speed that gives it an edge I think. I put Teladi shields and Paranid engines on everything, which makes the differences between models even less and I am not sure is a good idea for the game to allow. With a single Ion Blaster, one Plasma, and the rest Pulse I could kill a K fairly quickly and it was easier to avoid fire than with the Nemesis. But I do not even try until I had basic mod parts fitted. I do not fly any ship in Xenon space without them. I see Teladi NPC pilots in there with a Buzzard or Falcon and they seem to be able to last ages. Not sure why. Better pilots than I am for sure.

As to your proposal, I would need to try all three and closely compare their stats etc. But overall I find there is not the variation between ships apart from weapon slots. Fit Paranid engines and Teladi shields and they all get far closer to each other. I am not sure if the AI fight differently depending on the ship it uses, but it would be good if it did and every ship was designed to meet a requirement for a fighting style.
That is how it is IRL. A requirement is sent to designers to create something that fits a military doctrine and meets certain specs and price points. The Soviet MiG 25 and MiG 31 are good examples of that. An interceptor than can do mach 3 almost. It is very heavy, can not turn and has very long range detection radar and missiles. Not a dogfighter like the Americans thought when they designed the F-15 to counter it. A battllecriuser is another example. It has heavy firepower to kill equal or smaller, but is fast enough to run from battleships. The carrier made both obsolete though (I think there should be super carriers in X rather than battleships. Missile cruisers and missile destroyers to escort them and protect them from swarms of fighters. But the carrier battle group is at risk of being superseded now by advances in missile tech (hypersonic etc), so I do not know how closely X should reflect IRL stuff or not).

[grapedog]

some of the differences that you didn't mention just don't matter unfortunately. Like Hardpoints for weapons is very important. But storage space, not so much.

You also need to look at each races NON heavy fighters though to see how they evolve from normal to heavy. Just making every heavy fighter homogeneous isn't the right answer.

[Stu Austin]

Hello all. Why rebalance the Eclipse? I think the Eclipse is just fine. If nothing else, add 2 more guns to it, one on each side of the others. I don't see where it is too fast. When going up against 3 or more bad guys, I want fire power, speed and agility. When you start to lower the stats on the ships, you're going to be doing a lot of reloading your saves.
stu

[mr.WHO]

Hello all. Why rebalance the Eclipse? I think the Eclipse is just fine. If nothing else, add 2 more guns to it, one on each side of the others. I don't see where it is too fast. When going up against 3 or more bad guys, I want fire power, speed and agility. When you start to lower the stats on the ships, you're going to be doing a lot of reloading your saves.
stu

Adding 2 more guns to Eclipse would also make Pulsar obsolete.

[spankahontis]

I used the Eclipse as a player ship but have not tried the Quasar. I used the Pulsar recently until moving to a Nemesis. It's not only the extra firepower of the Pulsar, but the the speed that gives it an edge I think. I put Teladi shields and Paranid engines on everything, which makes the differences between models even less and I am not sure is a good idea for the game to allow. With a single Ion Blaster, one Plasma, and the rest Pulse I could kill a K fairly quickly and it was easier to avoid fire than with the Nemesis. But I do not even try until I had basic mod parts fitted. I do not fly any ship in Xenon space without them. I see Teladi NPC pilots in there with a Buzzard or Falcon and they seem to be able to last ages. Not sure why. Better pilots than I am for sure.

As to your proposal, I would need to try all three and closely compare their stats etc. But overall I find there is not the variation between ships apart from weapon slots. Fit Paranid engines and Teladi shields and they all get far closer to each other. I am not sure if the AI fight differently depending on the ship it uses, but it would be good if it did and every ship was designed to meet a requirement for a fighting style.
That is how it is IRL. A requirement is sent to designers to create something that fits a military doctrine and meets certain specs and price points. The Soviet MiG 25 and MiG 31 are good examples of that. An interceptor than can do mach 3 almost. It is very heavy, can not turn and has very long range detection radar and missiles. Not a dogfighter like the Americans thought when they designed the F-15 to counter it. A battllecriuser is another example. It has heavy firepower to kill equal or smaller, but is fast enough to run from battleships. The carrier made both obsolete though (I think there should be super carriers in X rather than battleships. Missile cruisers and missile destroyers to escort them and protect them from swarms of fighters. But the carrier battle group is at risk of being superseded now by advances in missile tech (hypersonic etc), so I do not know how closely X should reflect IRL stuff or not).

If I remember, the Quasar has quite a punch to it, ripped through Xenon P's with relative ease; but it's Shields and Hull felt like glass, when an enemy ship got shots on me, Shields were weak and it's hull wouldn't last very long. I remember the moment I had an enemy tailing me, I would straight away pull evasive manoeuvres. The Quasar has a Glass Jaw in that regard, a bit too much like glass.

The Eclipse however wasn't as impressive in terms of firepower, but it's Shields and Hull took more of a pounding before I felt I was in danger and had to evasive manoeuvre my way to safety.

I can't remember flying a Pulsar?

[Unbekanntes Feindschiff]

The problem isn't the Quasar, that one fairly balanced. It's just that the Eclipse and Pulsar are simply way too powerful. The Teladi and Paranid also have nothing that would be remotely adequate to the Eclipse or Pulsar.

[radcapricorn]

The Teladi and Paranid also have nothing that would be remotely adequate to the Eclipse or Pulsar.

Um, the Paranid have the Nemesis Yes, yes, I get it, different class and all that. It's just that, given how little difference there is in cost and how easy it is to cover that difference, what's the incentive to go with anything but? Roleplay?

[Imperial Good]

I ordered 40 Pulsar with best gear. During the assembly process the Warf still made 100M profit.

All the ships are practically free once one gets going.

[Berserk Knight]

Looking at CHASSIS PRICES, everything is already where they should be.

Seriously, you're looking at FULLY DECKED OUT PRICES, where individual max mark modules (except shields) cost more than the chassis itself.
Of course you're gonna get massive chassis stat differences for a small cost difference between the Quasar and the Eclipse when the total equipment cost is an order of magnitude higher and the only equipment difference is 1 shield (which only costs 60k).
Of course you're gonna need a LOT more money for a decked out Pulsar since it has 2 more gun slots (250k for each gun) and needs 1 more engine (230k).

[mr.WHO]

The problem isn't the Quasar, that one fairly balanced. It's just that the Eclipse and Pulsar are simply way too powerful. The Teladi and Paranid also have nothing that would be remotely adequate to the Eclipse or Pulsar.

OK, so lets nerf Eclipse and Pulsar. Then we end up with another situation where we have 3 identical hulls. Insted of one problematic ship we end up with 3 problematic ships.
Eclipse is fine, Pulsar is fine, but Quasar doesn't have any strong point comparing to these two...other than slightly cheaper price.

[Imperial Good]

Seriously, you're looking at FULLY DECKED OUT PRICES, where individual max mark modules (except shields) cost more than the chassis itself.
Of course you're gonna get massive chassis stat differences for a small cost difference between the Quasar and the Eclipse when the total equipment cost is an order of magnitude higher and the only equipment difference is 1 shield (which only costs 60k).
Of course you're gonna need a LOT more money for a decked out Pulsar since it has 2 more gun slots (250k for each gun) and needs 1 more engine (230k).

All the ships are practically free anyway thanks to the massive 75+% discount one gets with self building. The only full spec component that one needs to worry about the cost of are L and XL Mk3 thrusters, and even those will be a ton more affordable in 2.60 due to the inflation in Engine ware numbers.

If you are looking at the cost for a ship to fly personally early game then the cost still does not matter as all S fighters are cheap and only a few missions of work max.

Eclipse is fine, Pulsar is fine, but Quasar doesn't have any strong point comparing to these two...other than slightly cheaper price.

One is unique to ANT, the other to ARG. This should be reflected in their fleets.

The issue of balance for player use between those ships is just the tip of the iceberg as far as problems with ship balance in this game goes. Most Teladi ships are out right useless compared with their Argon or especially Paranid equivalents.

[grapedog]

The issue of balance for player use between those ships is just the tip of the iceberg as far as problems with ship balance in this game goes. Most Teladi ships are out right useless compared with their Argon or especially Paranid equivalents.

i guess to each their own.... my fleet fighters are primarily(95%+) made up of Eclipse and Buzzard vanguards. I only order quasar and pulsar ships for my flieet when orders for Eclipse and Buzzards are backed up, and orders being backed up only happens now when I order 15+ of a particular ship.

So saying quite useless, really depends on personal perspective. I'd pick the buzzard over the quasar or pulsar pretty much 100% of the time.

[AquilaRossa]

The issue of balance for player use between those ships is just the tip of the iceberg as far as problems with ship balance in this game goes. Most Teladi ships are out right useless compared with their Argon or especially Paranid equivalents.

i guess to each their own.... my fleet fighters are primarily(95%+) made up of Eclipse and Buzzard vanguards. I only order quasar and pulsar ships for my flieet when orders for Eclipse and Buzzards are backed up, and orders being backed up only happens now when I order 15+ of a particular ship.

So saying quite useless, really depends on personal perspective. I'd pick the buzzard over the quasar or pulsar pretty much 100% of the time.

I am starting to rethink by ideas about the Buzzard. I assumed it was useless because it does not have the legs of Paranid ships or the Pulsar. But after dropping advanced satellites inside Xenon gates and seeing what goes on there I began to wonder. I would see a Buzzard or two taking on multiple Ks, Ps etc. Numbers that would make mincemeat of my tricked out Nemesis if I did not stick to hit and run tactics (dog fighting 10 or more Xenon at once in a Nemesis is a recipe for death I think). The Buzzards hang in there for ages and seem to be able to withdraw to recharge shields. Brave Teladi. Spacefuel courage.

My fighter fleets are usually 40 to match capacity of destroyers etc. I will have four Pegasus for speed. They can chase down a K and stop it engaging travel drive. 20 Perseus are not far behind. They are followed by 16 Pulsar for the knock out punch. I am not sure how I would use a Buzzard for that.

I am rethinking my whole game strategy since this new beta. I build complexes to cover my ship and station building needs, rather than just accumulate credits. I would make them big because they needed to be. That's because I was constantly replacing large losses due to the blacklists bug where my fighters would chase into Xenon space and die. It has not happened a single time since the beta. I am really happy about it. But it has made a few new issues like the resource buff means the factions are building huge numbers of combat ships and taking over Xenon sectors. That negates the performance increase after a few days of playing and takes away an enemy that I think should just keep coming from hidden sectors unknown.
p.s. one thing I really want to change is how lists and sub menus behave. The way they jump around and auto open sub menus really annoys me.

[grapedog]

I might have to add a few pegasus to chase down runners, that would be handy.

My typical fleet is a Zeus Carrier, with 10 Eclipse/5 Buzzard/8 Nemesis. An Atlas Aux Ship with 10 Eclipse/5 Buzz/8 Nemesis. Then 3 Odysseus Destroyers, each with 5 Eclipse/5 Buzzards/2 Nemesis. I have more ships on my Aux and Carrier because they have more launch bays than the destroyers, so they can dis-embark much quicker than stuffing a bunch of stuff on my destroyer and it taking forever to dock/undock.

I'll try adding a few pegasus in there somewhere, just to see how they do.

[Imperial Good]

I am starting to rethink by ideas about the Buzzard. I assumed it was useless because it does not have the legs of Paranid ships or the Pulsar. But after dropping advanced satellites inside Xenon gates and seeing what goes on there I began to wonder. I would see a Buzzard or two taking on multiple Ks, Ps etc. Numbers that would make mincemeat of my tricked out Nemesis if I did not stick to hit and run tactics (dog fighting 10 or more Xenon at once in a Nemesis is a recipe for death I think). The Buzzards hang in there for ages and seem to be able to withdraw to recharge shields. Brave Teladi. Spacefuel courage.

OoS damage logic is completely different than in sector. There is also a bug where by if an S ship constantly changes its attack logic between flee and attack or something like that it becomes effectively invulnerable. People have reported Ks dancing with HOP S ships like that for tens of hours.

In sector and personally flying my Nemesis I often solo swarms of 20-30 M, N and Ps. I once did it to save a destroyer of mine that stupidly decided to solo a Xenon Shipyard instead of defending a position. Xenon ships are so slow compared with the Nemesis that if your shield is at risk a quick tap of the boost and you are safe. After a few seconds of no damage one can travel mode and leave the Xenon eating your dust. Only real risk to the Nemsis are K and Is because the XEN L turrets on them can mince you in a couple of seconds if they start to connect.

My fighter fleets are usually 40 to match capacity of destroyers etc. I will have four Pegasus for speed. They can chase down a K and stop it engaging travel drive. 20 Perseus are not far behind. They are followed by 16 Pulsar for the knock out punch. I am not sure how I would use a Buzzard for that.

I just threw 40 Pulsar and 10 Nemesis onto a Zeus Carrier with full Ion Blaster Mk2 loadout. To put it in perspective they eat a Xenon Defence Platform in ~2 minutes from full HP while also killing the 30 odd Xenon ships defending it. Ks die in a couple of seconds from full toughness. Such is the brokenness of OoS combat logic.

[Buzz2005]

apsolutly broken, in 2.6 its even more highlighted bc factions have a lot of ships now guardian and attacking xenons essentially making them like khaak, useless and a canon fodder killing them in 15 hours on a new save

if ego don't fix this somehow I will have to quit playing

[Tamina]

Be it a Xenon K, destroyers, fighters or stations of any kind, my ships always die in this order:

Quasar >> Pulsar/Buzzard > Eclipse/Nova

Quasar is the most unreliable ship of them all. They usually all die before even one ship of any other ship class gets destroyed.
It has the hull and shield of a Nova but a multiple times bigger projected front face area, as we call it in aviation engineering, or simply spoken "It is multiple times easier to hit".

My two cents:
- Nova | Size: +++ Agility: +++ Firepower: + HP: + | =8
- Eclipse | Size: ++ Agility: + Firepower: ++ HP: +++ | =8
- Pulsar | Size: + Agility: +++ Firepower: +++ HP: + | =8
- Quasar | Size: + Agility: ++ Firepower: ++ HP: + | =6

6 vs 8: Quasar is bad. Either the price needs to be dropped or how about increasing both Agility to ~3 and hull/shield to ~2? Making it an in between of Eclipse and Pulsar.

As it stands now it is neither worth its price nor it's name "heavy fighter".

[Berserk Knight]

From what I can see, X4's definition of "heavy fighter" is if a ship has 4 or more guns.

Low-end fighters for each race has 2 guns and at least 3k hull. (Argon Nova 3100, Paranid Perseus 3700, Teladi Falcon 3900)
High-end fighters of non-Argon races have 3 guns and increased hull. (Paranid Theseus 4200, Teladi Buzzard 4100)
Argon high-end is the Eclipse, with 4 guns and increased hull (4000). But it has 4 guns, so it's a "heavy fighter" unlike the other high-ends.

Pulsar? Interceptor level of hull (1900), but with 6 guns for ultimate glass-cannoning. 6 guns is more than 4, so it's a "heavy fighter". (Back when this monstrosity had 3900 hull, it really was a heavy fighter. Okay, maybe not. It was too OP to be just a heavy fighter.)
Quasar (1700 hull) is just 2 Argon Discoverer scouts (1400 hull) glued together. (From this we can conclude that Discoverer's wings contribute 300 hull.) It's a jury-rigged junkpile, but it has 4 guns, so it's a "heavy fighter" as well.

They need to redo the fighter classifications.
Put the high-ends of other races in their rightful place as heavy fighters, and also put those glass-cannons somewhere else. (The "interceptor" classification really suits them.)
...And demote the current "interceptor" Elite to "manned defense drone".

[AquilaRossa]

...And demote the current "interceptor" Elite to "manned defense drone".

It reminds me of a Toyota Prius for some reason. As useless in combat as it is I always keep Val's Elite in my game. I use it like an Uber driver to assign ship traders to my docks. Interceptor? Maybe for intercepting the 'known criminal spotted" in the early game when i was a full noob and 1500cr reward seems worth it (I played X3R/TC to death, but felt like a total noob coming back 10 tens later).

I just tried 40 Buzzard in Tharka's Cascade. That's the only dangerous Xenon zone left in my 2.60 beta game. Hop and Teladi have quieted the rest. The Buzzards are pretty bloody good. I gave them an ion blaster in the middle and two beams. My favourite is actually the Perseus with beam and Teladi shields though. They can not kill as fast, but they get there a lot faster, so i can get more kills with them over a period of time. Send one for repairs and it is not gone for long and not usually accosted along the way. Not so good in sector though. Theseus does not seem as useful to me. Today i will try the Quasar and see if it does better than 40 Eclipse. My Wharf has five building docks, so 40 fighters can be assembled in 2 minutes. All that automation and my workers still do long hours. No way for me to give them better pay and more time off.

p.s. OT but known criminal spotted is kind of meh huh? Death penalty for an ordinary factory worker having some Magaglit, while the big time narco smugglers just get told to drop it and get on with their day. The smugglers must have lobbyists at faction HQs.