Squad attack and other attack options

[Falcrack]

I have seen that when I have a wing, if I order the wing leader to attack a target, the rest of the wing will follow the wing leader, but not necessarily attack the target. They may, or they may become distracted by a different target.

However, if when I issue the attack order to the wing leader, in the advanced behaviors tab, if I open up the "attack" command, I see that there are several boxes further specifying behavior, one of which is "squad attack". It is unchecked by default, but if I check it, then all the ships in the wing will attack the target of the wing leader. Unfortunately, this behavior only lasts until the target is dead, and if I want squad attack again, I need to get through the same cumbersome menu in order to re-enable this behavior for each target of the wing. That is, select attack, go into behaviors tab, check "squad attack" for each target, one after another.

Could the "squad attack" behavior be enabled by default? Most of the time when I have a fighter wing, I want them all focusing their fire on a single target so as to take the target down faster. I want a better level of control over what they are attacking, to specify them to focus their fire rather than get spread out and be less effective.

Alternatively, maybe when we select the wing leader, and right click on the enemy target, there are two option, one for "attack", which will use the default attack routine where the subordinates may or may not attack the target of the wing leader, and the other option is "squad attack", where all subordinates of the wing leader will target whatever the wing leader is attacking. Furthermore, once the target is destroyed, the wing will maintain the "squad attack" behavior unless commanded otherwise.

Another option which I might like is to provide more types of attack options based on target type, more than just "attack all targets in range. For example, for my fighters which are outfitted for destroying other fighters, I could issues an "attack enemy fighters in range". For those with heavy, slow missiles, I could choose "attack enemy capitals in range". Just a way to help it so that the right type of ship, with the right equipment, is going after the right type of target.

[j.harshaw]

Hey Falcrack,

While squad_attack is convenient since it automatically designates targets and orders all subordinates to attack immediately, I don't think this would be a good idea to have by default because all coordination of movement is lost. Think about the current implementation of inter-sector movement where each ship breaks formation and separately goes to the designated destination and apply that to attack.

That said, there might be situations where you want a target or multiple targets engaged as soon as possible, which could be a good argument for making squad_attack more conveniently available, in the same level as Attack and Attack targets in range. What gives me pause in this is the "and other attack options" part of your thread title. There is a very large number of potential permutations of the attack order, each person will have a pet permutation that they would want immediate access to, and we simply cannot bloat that menu with every single one.

With the long-distance intra-sector movement improvements in 2.60, and inter-sector improvements coming in 3.0, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw away that coordinated movement in all cases when you issue an Attack order. With the current setup, you can approximate what squad_attack does by multi-selecting ships and ordering them all to attack a target, as can the AI which is what that option was done for, or you can have the default attack behavior by simply selecting a commander and having the commander attack a target. If squad_attack were the default, both methods for giving an Attack order to multiple ships would result in the same behavior and there will be no way to tell a group of ships to do a calibrated, coordinated attack.

And yes, i do understand that there is much frustration in this part of the game and i may have inflamed that by using the phrase "calibrated, coordinated". The coordination should already be improved in 2.60, and further improvements in that regard are coming in 3.0. I have no illusions that these improvements will please everyone, but hope that it will, at the very least, be less frustrating; hopefully, at times, even satisfying.

All that said, I have been replying in various places to people who express frustration over fleet movement and combat, telling you which improvements are on the way for 3.0. Are there concrete complaints that cause frustration in these areas that have not been addressed? Please let me know.

PS. @all I will be following this thread, and feel free to answer the last question in that last paragraph, but I won't be replying here much so please don't turn this into a Q&A thread.

[radcapricorn]

The best idea, IMHO, would be what Falcrack suggested: allow us to issue squad orders explicitly. I.e. leave "Attack" as is, but add a "Squad Attack" order into the menu. Maybe even make it X3-like wing commands, i.e. giving a "Squad" command to any squad member gives the order to whole squad. So that you can quickly grab and order the first ship you see, instead of having to look for the commander.

[Buzz2005]

squad attacks are perfect for protect position,

but then it needs attack priorities, like I dont want the whole squad to attack some S fighter while a L destroyer is on a killing spree

but then again if you go the other way and don't have squad attacks, I dont want a couple of fighters attacking that K and my L destroyers are on S or M fighters aka random

[Falcrack]

Hey Falcrack,

While squad_attack is convenient since it automatically designates targets and orders all subordinates to attack immediately, I don't think this would be a good idea to have by default because all coordination of movement is lost. Think about the current implementation of inter-sector movement where each ship breaks formation and separately goes to the designated destination and apply that to attack.

That said, there might be situations where you want a target or multiple targets engaged as soon as possible, which could be a good argument for making squad_attack more conveniently available, in the same level as Attack and Attack targets in range. What gives me pause in this is the "and other attack options" part of your thread title. There is a very large number of potential permutations of the attack order, each person will have a pet permutation that they would want immediate access to, and we simply cannot bloat that menu with every single one.

Thanks for the reply! In regards to fleet attack options, a "squad attack" menu option for wings would be very nice. I have given up creating sub-wings of fighters as subordinates to carriers, in favor of just having all fighters that belong to the carrier be all part of the same gigantic wing and multiple selecting fighters to give them orders, since giving orders to wing leaders so often results in unsatisfactory cases where they split their attack among various targets or do not attack at all. Also, sub-wings for fighters assigned to carriers do not function well either because, for instance, only the wing leader will dock, and the rest of the straggling fighters will slow down the carrier movement. But I recognize that having "squad attack" simply be the default is not best, because what would that mean for very large wings (ie fleets), as you may want them to split up their firepower among various targets.

I don't really know what other attack options I would want, besides "attack", "squad attack", and "attack targets in range". Between these, I think it would just about cover what I would want as far as giving attack commands. But regarding other attack options, I still have not, after all this time, figured out how to use or what means the "Attack multiple targets" command. What does it do, how do I use it effectively? I know this is not a Q&A, so hopefully somebody else can answer this for me.

Finally, regarding attack behavior, I notice that frequently, fighters given an attack command against something, like a station or capital ship, will fly towards and even past the target on the first pass, without attacking, which wastes times and makes them vulnerable to attack. Ideally, they should attack on their very first approach. For example, I had squads of fighters armed with torpedoes, and they all failed to fire anything on their first pass at the station

[Buzz2005]

when I think about it squad attacks would be great for sub-subordinates, first ones pick targets random but all there subs attack in squads

[j.harshaw]

Hey radcapricorn, hey Buzz,

Nice of you to join us!

Just a clarification of terms so that we're all sure we're talking about the same thing.

squad_attack is a switch available to the Attack order that activates a very specific bit of logic. It is currently only available in the fabled Advanced Order Queue menu. It can be used in conjunction with the "Attack all enemies" parameter of the Attack order which is available in the normal Order Queue menu.

If squad_attack is active, and Attack all enemies is inactive:
All available subordinates of the selected ship are immediately issued an attack order to attack their commander's designated target.

If both options are active:
Multiple targets are selected and designated to each available subordinate and each subordinate is given an immediate attack order who are then allowed to switch targets as appropriate (for example, when their existing target is destroyed). Note that the commander must be able to see targets to consider them for designation. If no other targets are found by the commander, such as if directing a fleet to attack another fleet in a different sector, they default to attacking the commander's target but are allowed to switch targets as appropriate.

This is not to say that we shouldn't consider "Squad Attack" that is an entirely different concept, but if you want this in 3.0, let's not go overboard please. Simply exposing this switch more conveniently to the UI is doable without sacrificing anything else, while adding new bits of potentially complex logic is going into the realm of having to drop something else to develop it.

[ezra-r]

Hey Falcrack,

While squad_attack is convenient since it automatically designates targets and orders all subordinates to attack immediately, I don't think this would be a good idea to have by default because all coordination of movement is lost. Think about the current implementation of inter-sector movement where each ship breaks formation and separately goes to the designated destination and apply that to attack.

That said, there might be situations where you want a target or multiple targets engaged as soon as possible, which could be a good argument for making squad_attack more conveniently available, in the same level as Attack and Attack targets in range. What gives me pause in this is the "and other attack options" part of your thread title. There is a very large number of potential permutations of the attack order, each person will have a pet permutation that they would want immediate access to, and we simply cannot bloat that menu with every single one.

With the long-distance intra-sector movement improvements in 2.60, and inter-sector improvements coming in 3.0, I don't think it would be a good idea to throw away that coordinated movement in all cases when you issue an Attack order. With the current setup, you can approximate what squad_attack does by multi-selecting ships and ordering them all to attack a target, as can the AI which is what that option was done for, or you can have the default attack behavior by simply selecting a commander and having the commander attack a target. If squad_attack were the default, both methods for giving an Attack order to multiple ships would result in the same behavior and there will be no way to tell a group of ships to do a calibrated, coordinated attack.

And yes, i do understand that there is much frustration in this part of the game and i may have inflamed that by using the phrase "calibrated, coordinated". The coordination should already be improved in 2.60, and further improvements in that regard are coming in 3.0. I have no illusions that these improvements will please everyone, but hope that it will, at the very least, be less frustrating; hopefully, at times, even satisfying.

All that said, I have been replying in various places to people who express frustration over fleet movement and combat, telling you which improvements are on the way for 3.0. Are there concrete complaints that cause frustration in these areas that have not been addressed? Please let me know.

PS. @all I will be following this thread, and feel free to answer the last question in that last paragraph, but I won't be replying here much so please don't turn this into a Q&A thread.

How about telling a squad attack does not break movement coordination until they are at close distance, let's say 2km or so close to the target for a small ship, then they all attack to kill and when killed they return to formation. The problem as I understand by your description is logic dictates either you fly together or either you attack, why not have both, if possible.

[Buzz2005]

all I want is those buttons to be better placed, no need for changing default behaviours to include those parameters

we can choose where and when to enable them

and of course for those options to function properly

[radcapricorn]

all I want is those buttons to be better placed, no need for changing default behaviours to include those parameters

Exactly this. Having to go into behavior settings after every attack order is just evil. Especially when not using mouse.

There's a treasure trove in improving those behaviors in the future, for sure. But please, make the UI more cooperative!

[Falcrack]

As to the "other attack options", maybe instead of bloating the menu with a myriad of different attack options for different target types, there could be a setting in the behaviors menu which we could select which would help us prioritize which targets the ships will attempt to engage? It would be a setting that, once set, would remain after orders are completed, unless changed by the player. It could be a line added in the behavior menu, perhaps in the section entitled "reaction to events", called "target preference priority" where we could choose a list of a few different target priority options, such as "fighters and medium ships", "capital ships and stations", "Default" etc.

For instance, I am tired of seeing my destroyers get orders to attack a single nearby N fighter, when there are enemy stations or capital ships nearby that a destroyer is much better suited for engaging. So for that destroyer, I go into the behavior menu and change its behavior setting to prefer engaging capitals and stations. From that point on, unless I change that target preference priority, that ship will continue to prefer whatever I set it at. It would still engage any target I manually tell it to engage, and would still engage fighters as long as its preferred target type is not available. Small fighters with anti-fighter weaponry could be set to prefer other fighters as targets, or if the fighters are loaded with cumbersome plasma weapons or slow torpedoes, they could be set to prefer stations and capitals.

The main point is I want some way to be able to influence the target type chosen by a ship, because weapon loadoat of an individual ship can make a big difference in terms of the targets I want them to pursue. I of course can manually give attack orders, but if I were to say give an order to "attack all targets in range", then I lose some of that control in terms of which targets my ships will select. Being able to change their default target priority would help to give me a bit more control in terms of what I think they ought to be attacking.

[ajime]

I go into the behavior menu and change its behavior setting to prefer engaging capitals and stations

This reminded me of X3's turret behavior setup.

[csaba]

While we are on the squad behaviors topic I have 2 issues for carriers:

1.) It would be nice to set maximum launches for enemy types for carriers and don't launch more if said numbers are already on the field. Yesterday (after the 2.6 update) I spent 2 hours trying to get my Colossus away from the matrix #451 gate, however each time a Xenon came through and grazed any of the wing members all the docked fighters launched. Creating a loop where I can't use travel drive cause of friendly fighter proximity while they are constantly docking and launching, while fighters were also incapable of docking if the host ship is in any kind of forward motion.

Trying to remove all orders + fly to command doesn't work cause as soon as I remove all orders they either queue an attack or dock order instantly. Meaning the only way I could achive a "quick" get away is to give the fly to command then individually delete each docking and attack command.

I feel like different types of enemies should trigger a different kind of response. Eg. for a fighter only launch 8 ships, for a bomber 16 for a capital ships everything. Right now a Xenon P triggers all my fighters unless it dies before all of them could be launched.

An alternative fix would be to set subordinate docking/launching to true or false. Where once set to false everything that launches stays that way, while setting it to true everything that can docks and ignores hostiles. The attack and recall commands could be a trigger for this.

2.) It would be also nice that ships kept formation while waiting for the docking queue. In the same situation as my carrier slowly ferried away from the gate. The fighters that were queuing for dock stayed static next to the gate while they were waiting for their turn 10 km behind my capital ships, essentially floating around for a free turkey shoot.

[Buzz2005]

Does squad attack work for anyone???

If I give a manual attack order to wingleader and tick the squad attack in adv behavior tab all subs should attack???

attack all enemies is unticked

but its not working, subs dont attack the target, and they dont have any orders