Kha'Ka Invincible? - Improved in 3.10 Beta.

[Alan Phipps]

Maybe consider a possible hive principle.

The Kha'ak hive should be extremely tough to defeat because of repeated and significant waves of workers spawning from the hive to fend off attackers. The hive should also be pretty good and quick at scavenging dead defenders, attackers and their various dropped remnants to avoid 'clutter'. If, despite this strong defence, the hive should become liable to inevitable destruction with the loss of the old queen, a new queen and a myriad of workers should swarm, flee the scene and set up a new hive elsewhere (undisclosed at first) in environments chosen as benign and well-resourced to encourage their rapid redevelopment.

I would suggest that others far better at interpreting such a principle into balanced gameplay should formulate the ship types and numbers involved, methods and routes for swarm travel and the criteria for new sites, etc.

Just my thoughts.

[NightmareNight91]

Maybe consider a possible hive principle.

The Kha'ak hive should be extremely tough to defeat because of repeated and significant waves of workers spawning from the hive to fend off attackers. The hive should also be pretty good and quick at scavenging dead defenders, attackers and their various dropped remnants to avoid 'clutter'. If, despite this strong defence, the hive should become liable to inevitable destruction with the loss of the old queen, a new queen and a myriad of workers should swarm, flee the scene and set up a new hive elsewhere (undisclosed at first) in environments chosen as benign and well-resourced to encourage their rapid redevelopment.

I would suggest that others far better at interpreting such a principle into balanced gameplay should formulate the ship types and numbers involved, methods and routes for swarm travel and the criteria for new sites, etc.

Just my thoughts.

/agree

[snwboardn21]

Why not give them 10^10^10^10 hull points and armed to the teeth, if you are worried about them being destroyed too soon?

Nothing more immersion breaking than seeing the AI attack an indestructible structure.

[Duncaroos]

Why not give them 10^10^10^10 hull points and armed to the teeth, if you are worried about them being destroyed too soon?

Nothing more immersion breaking than seeing the AI attack an indestructible structure.

I'm on board for just making the kha'ak station a neutral (or maybe even something where sensors can't penetrate...so it's "unknown"). That way they can still leave it indestructible and figure. I know it's pretty obvious what the station is, but the sensors for ships can't make it out so your SOL (until research, missions, stories, etc. create an opportunity for you to destroy kha'ak stations).

Not sure what the Kyon Crystals are for, but maybe could be used in research / sensor upgrades to allow to progress.

[spankahontis]

I'm in Pious Mists 4 and I feel that the Kha'ak Installation is getting in the way of the war with the HOP and the Godrealm.
I've noticed ALLOT of Godrealm Destroyers swarming around the Kha'ak Installation, they can't harm it so they are pretty much stuck there and it draws Godrealm ships away that should be bolstering the frontline at Pious Mists 2.
I fear that's the reason why HOP have taken Pious Mists 2 because the Kha'ak Installation is pulling Godrealm ships away.

I feel it would be better if Egosoft just took Kha'ak Installations out of the game until they can decied to give them their own economy where they could forage for materials to build them across the Universe Map?
Right now they're annoying Bug Zappers and the Godrealm ships are the Flies.

[MakerLinux]

But this is not the issue here! Nothing in above statement justify invulnerable stations.

The reason for the stations being invulnerable was simply that if they weren't, they would be "one-off" objects which would soon be destroyed, sometimes even by the NPC factions before the player even got a chance to see them. That's a bit of a waste. We actually agree that them being indestructible is not an ideal solution, but just making them destructible is not a good solution either. Having them respawn somewhere random might be a popular alternative for some players, particularly those who enjoy the combat side of the game, but for others who are more interested in the economic side of the game it would be extremely frustrating. And no, "make it optional" is not an answer either.

Doesn't "being destructible but then respawning elsewhere" adds exactly the unpredictability that makes thing interesting? Which should work even for the players who are interesting solely in the economic side of the game.

[spankahontis]

Well to me that answer makes the situation even more depressing, I assumed they were like this because of time constraints. To find out its actually a decision that was made is even more bewildering.

For the record, I think the Kha'ak could fill an unpredictable threat role in the game - they could be the exception to the no jump drive rule, even their stations could jump when under threat. Would require some effects work to make it look cool. In a perfect world kha'ak would get expanded and given new capital ships, maybe even a story that links the new kha'ak to the player headquarters (the player finding and dimension jumping it causes different kha'ak from another dimension to show up).

In the time being I'de say either make the stations destructible or make them jump like the PHQ does when almost destroyed - that at least makes them cool and surprising in a lore sense. Arming them a bit would be nice too.

I'd like them to be able to forage for materials either through mining or through a more ruthless form of Piracy (Destroy ship without communication, consume materials).
From what they consume, they fly back to a Kha'ak Installation to drop off the resources.
From what CBJ said, they claim a plot of space in some place where there is plenty of asteroids and far from the core of the Faction to avoid suspicion (For as long as they can).

But I'd also like to see the Kha'ak Installation grow in size and danger to the local population.. Starting off with Kha'ak Fighters, growing in number they form swarms, just like they used to in X3 games.
If not dealt with? They grow further, adding tons of defences around the Installation making it harder to take them down with just a few Destroyers.

And then, the final stage? They start building Kha'ak Destroyers, increasing the number of Installations in the region and become such a menace that they might push into other Sectors/Systems if their numbers aren't kept in check.
Make the Kha'ak a Threat Again.

[mr.WHO]

I'd freaking love to see actual hive mechanics for Kha'ak, with Qeen, destroyers and clusters.
One of a very few "oh shit" moments in X2 and X3 was when you poke a large cluster or when Khaak Destroyer pop up.

Xenon I is nowhere close as intimidating and Khaak destroeyr.

Speaking of Xenons, I'd to see more ship types for them. Like LX, PX, Q, J and large freighter/miner (because hunting those small miners/freighters become boring really fast).

[spankahontis]

I'd freaking love to see actual hive mechanics for Kha'ak, with Qeen, destroyers and clusters.
One of a very few "oh shit" moments in X2 and X3 was when you poke a large cluster or when Khaak Destroyer pop up.

Xenon I is nowhere close as intimidating and Khaak destroeyr.

Speaking of Xenons, I'd to see more ship types for them. Like LX, PX, Q, J and large freighter/miner (because hunting those small miners/freighters become boring really fast).

Yeah, like the panic when you're flying around the Asteroid Belt and a Hive Destroyer comes out of nowhere with those menacing revolving pincers and those disturbing Kyon Beam noises like a wasp just flew past your Ear.
Yeah, I miss those large ships, so intimidating.

[exogenesis]

Hey, hang on, why are there no Xenon left in Matrix451, or Paranid in Pious Mists,
lets go have a look..

Oh shit look at all those Khaak ships & stations, geez quick run away, better come back with a decent fleet

Sounds good to me

but the Installation stations would have to be very strong, not indestuctable

[Axeface]

Well to me that answer makes the situation even more depressing, I assumed they were like this because of time constraints. To find out its actually a decision that was made is even more bewildering.

For the record, I think the Kha'ak could fill an unpredictable threat role in the game - they could be the exception to the no jump drive rule, even their stations could jump when under threat. Would require some effects work to make it look cool. In a perfect world kha'ak would get expanded and given new capital ships, maybe even a story that links the new kha'ak to the player headquarters (the player finding and dimension jumping it causes different kha'ak from another dimension to show up).

In the time being I'de say either make the stations destructible or make them jump like the PHQ does when almost destroyed - that at least makes them cool and surprising in a lore sense. Arming them a bit would be nice too.

I'd like them to be able to forage for materials either through mining or through a more ruthless form of Piracy (Destroy ship without communication, consume materials).
From what they consume, they fly back to a Kha'ak Installation to drop off the resources.
From what CBJ said, they claim a plot of space in some place where there is plenty of asteroids and far from the core of the Faction to avoid suspicion (For as long as they can).

But I'd also like to see the Kha'ak Installation grow in size and danger to the local population.. Starting off with Kha'ak Fighters, growing in number they form swarms, just like they used to in X3 games.
If not dealt with? They grow further, adding tons of defences around the Installation making it harder to take them down with just a few Destroyers.

And then, the final stage? They start building Kha'ak Destroyers, increasing the number of Installations in the region and become such a menace that they might push into other Sectors/Systems if their numbers aren't kept in check.
Make the Kha'ak a Threat Again.

Personally i'de like to see the Kha;ak reintroduced as a menace faction that can appear anywhere and cause temporary havok. Ide like to see them spawn a station, a fleet and suplimentary ships in a fairly random sector and start to build - if not dealt with quickly they should become a threat to the whole universe - and this should be woven into a story linked to the PHQ/Ventures dimension weirdness - the player, and all other players are doing it - why not another hostile race such as the Kha'ak (even moreso if they hear of the eradication of their kin in our dimension).
They would need new, awesome capitals ships, stations and supply ships - yep, a full rework and lots of dev time. What can I say.... I just want more.

[Ynesra_Voles]

Agree! It would be so cool to see “seeds” of Khaak hive jumping to random sectors (like one single station module) and growing into a hive over time while spawning more and more ships. Khaak can be multidimensional beings that “generate” all other resources but nividium which they need to survive. Also it can be introduced a mechanic where Khaak spawn on big and small shipwrecks to salvage them into resources.

PS: Introduce ship wreck salvage/mining please!

[spankahontis]

Well to me that answer makes the situation even more depressing, I assumed they were like this because of time constraints. To find out its actually a decision that was made is even more bewildering.

For the record, I think the Kha'ak could fill an unpredictable threat role in the game - they could be the exception to the no jump drive rule, even their stations could jump when under threat. Would require some effects work to make it look cool. In a perfect world kha'ak would get expanded and given new capital ships, maybe even a story that links the new kha'ak to the player headquarters (the player finding and dimension jumping it causes different kha'ak from another dimension to show up).

In the time being I'de say either make the stations destructible or make them jump like the PHQ does when almost destroyed - that at least makes them cool and surprising in a lore sense. Arming them a bit would be nice too.

I'd like them to be able to forage for materials either through mining or through a more ruthless form of Piracy (Destroy ship without communication, consume materials).
From what they consume, they fly back to a Kha'ak Installation to drop off the resources.
From what CBJ said, they claim a plot of space in some place where there is plenty of asteroids and far from the core of the Faction to avoid suspicion (For as long as they can).

But I'd also like to see the Kha'ak Installation grow in size and danger to the local population.. Starting off with Kha'ak Fighters, growing in number they form swarms, just like they used to in X3 games.
If not dealt with? They grow further, adding tons of defences around the Installation making it harder to take them down with just a few Destroyers.

And then, the final stage? They start building Kha'ak Destroyers, increasing the number of Installations in the region and become such a menace that they might push into other Sectors/Systems if their numbers aren't kept in check.
Make the Kha'ak a Threat Again.

Personally i'de like to see the Kha;ak reintroduced as a menace faction that can appear anywhere and cause temporary havok. Ide like to see them spawn a station, a fleet and suplimentary ships in a fairly random sector and start to build - if not dealt with quickly they should become a threat to the whole universe - and this should be woven into a story linked to the PHQ/Ventures dimension weirdness - the player, and all other players are doing it - why not another hostile race such as the Kha'ak (even moreso if they hear of the eradication of their kin in our dimension).
They would need new, awesome capitals ships, stations and supply ships - yep, a full rework and lots of dev time. What can I say.... I just want more.

That would be a very interesting storyline.

The Venture Dimension Gate is basically tapping into the Multi-verse, where on one Hand? You are visiting other Peoples Universes where they are king, there could be a story driven plot where you accidently tap into a Universe where Operation Final Fury fails and the Kha'ak overwhelm the other Factions and destroy most of them.
A large swarm of them find their way into your universe and you have to destroy them, close the rifts they are entering your Universe from?

Be like looking for anomalies, anomalies that Kha'ak are entering from, close them down with a special weapon designed to shut them down and save the universe from the Kha'ak Universe.

[alexthespaniard]

Maybe consider a possible hive principle.

The Kha'ak hive should be extremely tough to defeat because of repeated and significant waves of workers spawning from the hive to fend off attackers. The hive should also be pretty good and quick at scavenging dead defenders, attackers and their various dropped remnants to avoid 'clutter'. If, despite this strong defence, the hive should become liable to inevitable destruction with the loss of the old queen, a new queen and a myriad of workers should swarm, flee the scene and set up a new hive elsewhere (undisclosed at first) in environments chosen as benign and well-resourced to encourage their rapid redevelopment.

I would suggest that others far better at interpreting such a principle into balanced gameplay should formulate the ship types and numbers involved, methods and routes for swarm travel and the criteria for new sites, etc.

Just my thoughts.

GREAT!!!

[Zetoss]

The one thing that everyone agrees on, devs included, is that invulnerable stations don't represent a nice solution and it's causing gameplay issues. What most seem to disagree on is how to solve that problem.

Speaking strictly as a player I'd love to see Kha'ak simply infest randomly spawned large asteroids in remote areas; if their hives are destroyed they can freely spawn a "seed" at any random such asteroid and it gradually turns into a bigger hive that spits out new bugs. Would be nice if the hive slowly grows over the course of multiple days, at first it would just be a big rock with a small crack in the side with only some meek defending ships circling it so a lone scout isn't enough to conclusively identify the hive and instantly cause a game over for their efforts, later they gradually start sending out attackers once the hive grows enough and can fend off smaller fleets if attacked.

Speaking as a realist I don't expect much to be done in quite a while, I'm sure most of the scripting side of it can be worked out in no overly excessive time frame but getting all those models needed to make it look like the hive evolves over time and also adding damage models and sorting out all the unpredictable edge cases that likely arise wouldn't come with a cheap manpower bill. After the Split Vendetta it could be more worth introducing something like it as a free update to the base game but also a core feature of another DLC - maybe one gate opens to a nice and friendly populated system but on the edge of that system is another gate to a system that always spawns a minimum of 3 hives, if the bugs are left unchecked they keep reproducing in that particular system because it has a thin but ultra enormous asteroid field? Put like thousands of asteroids in there and it would feel very believable that they can't be fully exterminated, only kept somewhat in check... add dead planet as backdrop, with lore: "It was home to billions before the gates shut down and a Kha'ak infestation silently grew ut of hand before anyone realised the true scope of the threat."

[eXalt!]

Quick temporal solution for the players to feel the awe of founding the station while fixing the problem of NPC fleets firing to an indestructible target:
-Keep the station indestructible till the player fly nearby, then make it destructible.

Meanwhile, anybody know how can I make it destructible or neutral? I mean in a savegame.
Because I'm roleplaying the Paranid civil war and all the Godrealm forces are flying around one of this, it breaks the inmersion completely. Thanks in advance!
edit: erase it from the save would work too!

[ezra-r]

The Kha'ak are not a "placeholder". As with all things in the game, we may well iterate on their properties and behaviour on the basis of feedback, but they have never had an in-game economy and we have no plans to add one. The Xenon are the "familiar" enemy with an economy; the role of the Kha'ak is to be less predictable and to be able to cause trouble that cannot be prevented simply by interfering with their economy.

Such a case I would have placed them in a sector with a few gates leading to different places of the universe, gates which they only could use and not the player or any other npc. That would be more inmersirve than yet again some other invincible item.

[BigBANGtheory]

I've not played much X4 yet (but am looking to change that with Split Vendetta) so can only offer a cursory PoV on this...

Should the Kha'ak have an economy... Well maybe something based on their consumption/conversion of Energy where starving them of that resource limits what they can do.

Strategically though I'd be looking for a choke point sector/zone to prevent their expansion into core area's a battle line in effect. Can this be achieved in X4 I don't know, but as a player that is what I'd be looking to do and would therefore want the opportunity to play that out. What would be really annoying is if the Kha'ak can just bypass defences.

[CaptainX4]

yes, this logicless thinking is littering the entire game sadly kha'aks are clustering ships, they dont need to build stations, its would be just logical that as a kha'ak cluster, a stations could be built up by ships spawning in from the deep space and forming a higher entity (cluster or station). this would easily solve the no economy, then the stations could send out the raiding parties... get destroyed? keep spawning in ships at random places, one that finds an empty space with no resistance, far from every ship/radar/station/highway etc forms a new station and start sending out raiding parties... they shouldnt be spawned in randomly, they shoulld be spawned in with logic
there were 2 big annoyances in x3: the fixed position pirate stations, and the khaak, it was the same. the pirate stations were destroyable but they have spawned back at the same place again and again... what kind of logic is that? what idiot pirate would build a station where they were already found and destroyed? especially when the player has already built an other station there... the khaak were also spawning in mindlessly into the middle of a sector, usually elena's fortune... why? wouldnt it be more logical to spawn outside the mapped sector and attack from there? yeah, it would be.

[Scarletian]

They are trying their best, I am sure. I like the game a lot. Even with its faults. I honestly think making the Kha'ak spawn from a mobile station/ship would be great. It can move really slowly or not at all. How cool would it be to almost reach the point of destroying it and it splits up in hundreds of small ships, only to form up again somewhere remote again. Gives me a reason to go search for them. Exploring the sectors. Enjoying the game even more.