X4s combat could use some more elements from X3 to X:R

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Genoscythe
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X4s combat could use some more elements from X3 to X:R

Post by Genoscythe » Wed, 4. Dec 19, 17:44

I finally came around to play some X4 these days and damn it feels good to be back in the X-Universe. To make this short, because it might be a longer read, lemme give you the tl;dr right away:

X4 is a good foundation, but especially combat gameplay and visuals could take some inspiration from its predecessors.

Why do I think that? To start this off, let me say that I have never played the first X, I started my way into the series back in the day with X2: The Threat and then went on with all sequels from X3 to X:R. My main focus on the game has always been the combat. Building a space empire is awesome and fun. Building it on top of the smoking wrecks of Xenon, Kha'ak and other opponent ships is more fun. X4 seems to have completely forgotten that there are players who also can't say no to a good fight. Yes, I'm just assuming that I'm not the only one here :D . The thing is, if X would always have ONLY been an empire builder, my opinion on this would be irrelevant. But as it stands, X2, all X3s and X:R all had way superior combat and combat build options than X4 has. Even back in X2 there were assasination missions that had you face off against an M1 capship + fighter escort or had several xenon capships pouring through a gate and you were the only thing that stood between the complete destruction of any sector installations. It was a sight to behold when a cluster of Kha'ak ships jumped in, split, and proceeded to hammer and terrorize the local traffic. However, enemies were not only a lot more frightening (hearing the hum of a kyon emitter hammering your shields is quite an experience, the yellow lasers in the background when you see a Kha'ak destroyer fight and you know you either get a capship in there or steer clear), but they also each had their distinctive weaknesses. Did you know that X2 Xenon K had a dead angle on the upper right side behind their thrusters that allowed you to follow them with an Argon Nova with a Plasma Accelerator and an Ion Disruptor and kill it?
Now, why am I telling you this?

Because X4 completely lacks the combat grandeur of its predecessors. In the previous games, combat was to a certain extent less a question of firepower and more about intelligent maneuvering and covering enemy weakspots. Using a longer range weapon and keeping one's distance was also an option instead of just going full pulse laser and simply overpowering an enemy ship. In X4, this has kinda been lost. X:R did ship to ship combat really well by introducing the capship gravity wells and allowing a player to work his way along the ship destroying surface structures. Capships were big, hulking monstrosities with enormous firepower but they all also were small levels one could play on. Somehow X4 removed the ultra long-range capship weapons of the Xenon and other capships and just made the pulse laser the universal solution. I miss those big fireballs with more than 10km range flying towards a station and wreaking havoc. While in other games you could outmaneuver projectile based weaponry, the 2-4k Meter/s weapons can't be evaded even if you have maximum spec modded boosters on your Nemesis Vanguard. Xenon seem to be an unorganized bunch, in other games of the series a Xenon Capship would sometimes come accompanied by wings of smaller ships, now a Xenon I just jumps through the gate alone and proceeds to get hammered by defense drones it can't seem to hit. Generally, enemies are a lot less intimidating, also capships are kinda small and poorly armed, where are the heavy guns?

This leads me to weapon balancing. The Space shotgun (80 MW output vs. Pulse that has 100-200 MW output with more speed and range???) and plasma cannon sink into irrelevance while Bolt Repeater and Pulse Laser are the only viable options for all ships. Beam weapons fill a small niche but are mostly useless unless fit on an L turret, they fail completely as missile defense on smaller ships. Weapon variety in X3 and X:R was awesome. Terran EM-Plasma Accelerators, ammo based guns, Shockwave Generators, Kyon Emitters, Point singularity emitters, Photon Pulse Cannons, Railguns, Heavy mining lasers, Chargeable Plasma Cannons with splash damage, Sticky projectile pulsers, where are those? Ego have previously proven how damn well they can make different kinds of weapons work and how creative they are. But all we got in X4 was the same projectile weapon with different speed and damage parameters. We can't use Kha'ak or Xennon weapons nor fly their ships, race-specific weapons seem to be gone. I think one major issue was taking the heat per weapon system from X:R. In X:R you only could have one weapon out at a time wich would overheat after abuse, they should go back to the X2,3 energy system, where a ship has an energy pool that get's depleted by all weapons at the same time, there was a good balance between the ships of different races. This worked a lot better with balancing for fighters and corvettes, turrets could keep working as they did before. With up to 6 main guns on a ship using different weapon types can become a managing mess with a weapon-specific overheat system.

I see that the combat mission part migh be addressed in the 3.0 Update which I am more looking forward to than Christmas itself, there is a lot of space for improvement and further refined combat would be a very welcome sight. Anyway, I'm having fun with X4 and the overall experience is that I'll spend more time than is healthy for me on this game. It's a foundation I'd be glad to see Ego build on, there's endless possibilities. This is just my 2 cents on a game I care about.
Last edited by Genoscythe on Thu, 5. Dec 19, 15:35, edited 1 time in total.

linolafett
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Re: X4s combat could use some more elements from X3 to X:R

Post by linolafett » Wed, 4. Dec 19, 18:00

There are some new weapons coming up in the 3.0 build, maybe check those out.
In addition there is currently ongoing work to polish the effects like the bullets.
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Sandalpocalypse
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Re: X4s combat could use some more elements from X3 to X:R

Post by Sandalpocalypse » Thu, 5. Dec 19, 00:50

x3 had kind of garbage capital combat. Firepower was extremely high compared to defenses but shots were easy to dodge with strafe drive so a player in a destroyer could defeat almost any odds. But if you chose not to pilot your capital ships they had a tendency to get easily destroyed for the same reason.

in addition to what CBJ said i would mention that in 3.0 wars can get pretty aggressive in the numbers of ships pouring through, I had to basically run a xenon blockade in Argon Prime earlier. Not just solitary Is puttering about.

Heavy plasma weapons still produce large balls of fire that can be easily dodged by smaller vessels, but Commonwealth capital ships are almost universally equipped with a mixture of Pulse and Tracking turrets. Which is kind of garbage imo especially given how long missile defense has been bad.
Irrational factors are clearly at work.

Genoscythe
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Re: X4s combat could use some more elements from X3 to X:R

Post by Genoscythe » Thu, 5. Dec 19, 15:28

Sandalpocalypse wrote:
Thu, 5. Dec 19, 00:50
x3 had kind of garbage capital combat. Firepower was extremely high compared to defenses but shots were easy to dodge with strafe drive so a player in a destroyer could defeat almost any odds. But if you chose not to pilot your capital ships they had a tendency to get easily destroyed for the same reason.

in addition to what CBJ said i would mention that in 3.0 wars can get pretty aggressive in the numbers of ships pouring through, I had to basically run a xenon blockade in Argon Prime earlier. Not just solitary Is puttering about.

Heavy plasma weapons still produce large balls of fire that can be easily dodged by smaller vessels, but Commonwealth capital ships are almost universally equipped with a mixture of Pulse and Tracking turrets. Which is kind of garbage imo especially given how long missile defense has been bad.
I liked the faster capship combat in X3, it was what you would expect from armed-to-the-teeth ships shooting each other, highly devastating. Playing as a capship captain should mean possibly improving your performance over an NPC pilot, but the strafing speed was too high and pretty abusable not only in a capship, yeah. But as it stands in X4 you can't do much in a capship apart from hoping your turrets target enemy weakspots faster than you and prioritize targets right, in X3 you could take control of any battery or have a manual targetting mode, this would be pretty awesome in X4 as you can now destroy enemy turrets and could as such greatly improve your performance. Since X:R the big boys have kinda become less interactive and more of a fleet support option. I feel like having 5x Nemesis vanguard actually is way better than bringing a Destroyer to a fight.

Plasma weapons work as they should, but pulse is the allround god-option in my book. High output in S,M or L, fastest projectile speed and good range, the turret tracking is the only real problem, maybe one could equip beam turrets for missile defense then. Because at 26 mj output for an M turret I can't see myself killing anything but spaceflies with it. Since the introduction of hitscan/semi-hitscan guns a lot mroe problems have come up and while Kyon weapons were damn strong Ego have since then changed how they work a couple of times, first simply nerfing and restricting them in X3, then reserving the to capships or on the only player ship with reduce range, then nerfing and giving them the longest cooldowns in X4. Plasma jet aka Capship Deathray is the gun I died to most in X:R. I don't know why Ego made all weapons availible on all hardpoints in X4. It was a pretty good solution in X3 to only have quick projectile speed weapons availible at the sides of a ship for example (I think only one split frigate had 2x2 possible beam weapons at the sides in X3AP), while the frontal heavy batteries would have exclusive options for the heaviest cannons. If beam turrets get any stronger S/M fighters won't even get close to capships and if they stay as weak as they are they won't serve much for combat (apart from the L beam) once turret tracking is improved, as Pulse also has 4k m/s speed and much lower cooldowns, which serves better as missile def and anti-fighter/capship.



[/quote]
linolafett wrote:
Wed, 4. Dec 19, 18:00
There are some new weapons coming up in the 3.0 build, maybe check those out.
In addition there is currently ongoing work to polish the effects like the bullets.
I have spotted one such a new gun in the Xlog, as soon as I have wrapped my head a bit more around the current version, I'll give it a look. Good to hear visuals are getting refined.

I still feel there is something off at the weapon balancing in general, however. E.g. an mk1 weapon is always completely inferior to an mk2. While it's understandable that there are budget options for guns, why not give them some trade-offs? E.g. Mk1 shard battery has more spread, longer range and more sustained damage while MK2 has tighter spread and less range paired wit higher burst damage.

Also, I don't know if it's intended but why are the fixed Shard Batteries inferior in damage to a Bolt Repeater which has more range, more cooling and fires pin-point accurate? Are the MJ-numbers per single bullet fired from a trigger pull? So a shard battery would actually fire 5 shards x listed MJ damage? Because you'd have to be at 500m-1km to actually achieve the listed DPS that can't be sustained as long as bolt. It doesn't say anything in the patch notes, but will there be a look taken at the existing guns?

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mr.WHO
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Re: X4s combat could use some more elements from X3 to X:R

Post by mr.WHO » Thu, 5. Dec 19, 17:27

IMO, L-size beams should get a boost to remain useful in capship combat, but M-size beam turrets should be reballanced to be dedicated anti-missile weapon.

Already Pulse and Bolt turrets are too similar, so there is no point in having M-size beam turrets, unless we specialize them - currently they are too weak to even take out a single fighter.

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