Capital ship beam weapon

[chew-ie]

Also - don't forget: those beams are more precise then your average plasma battery. Which means you don't have to disable them once friendlies (stations, other capitals) are fighting along side with you.

And last but not least - with 3.0 beta lasers are awesome in terms of looks & sound, so I always have some on the hardpoints, just for the atmo

Again. 3 behemoth cant kill one xenon. they cat even take 5% os shields...

My IS-OOS fleets consist of 1x Colossus (pimped shields, 500k+) & 3 Behemoths (attack wing) with mixed weaponary (I consider the top L turret the "main weapon" of a npc controlled behemoth and mix them with either pulse, laser or plasma). Point defense turrets (=m turrets) mostly have pulse or bolt - sometimes flak and sometimes laser. This composition is able to fight off multiple K and I [both IS and OOS]. The colossus has a standard wing of 8 nodans (interceptors) with pulse/ion weaponary and 4 M ships as turret extension (no subordinates; again, mixed weaponary of hart hitters (plasma) and point defense with fast firing point defense having the priority).

All in all the situation is not as dire as it is described here - at least for me. Xenon weapons do hurt, but that's okay - they are "the threat".

On the other hand - these fleets are devastated once they have to fight HOP - which translates in my game as "several Odysseus with M escorts roam the ARG space" (and I'm defending ARG)

[LeVaAl]

My IS-OOS fleets consist of 1x Colossus (pimped shields, 500k+) & 3 Behemoths (attack wing) with mixed weaponary (I consider the top L turret the "main weapon" of a npc controlled behemoth and mix them with either pulse, laser or plasma). Point defense turrets (=m turrets) mostly have pulse or bolt - sometimes flak and sometimes laser. This composition is able to fight off multiple K and I [both IS and OOS]. The colossus has a standard wing of 8 nodans (interceptors) with pulse/ion weaponary and 4 M ships as turret extension (no subordinates; again, mixed weaponary of hart hitters (plasma) and point defense with fast firing point defense having the priority).

All in all the situation is not as dire as it is described here - at least for me. Xenon weapons do hurt, but that's okay - they are "the threat".

On the other hand - these fleets are devastated once they have to fight HOP - which translates in my game as "several Odysseus with M escorts roam the ARG space" (and I'm defending ARG)

Make the experiment. Build 3 Behemoth and go with them to any xenon owned space. and watch the fight.

[cool_lad]

Tl;dr: Cap ships need more variety in their weapons and turrets need to be more than just secondary weapons.

Need more main weapon variety cause the mandatory pulse laser batteries are boring to use when flying. Destroyers have exactly one option for main batteries and their obsessive use just makes destroyer fights look like a Rhino trying to fly (ie: not good).

Turrets chase any ship larger than a fighter can't fight like a fighter, so the turrets are much more important to use and need to be able to be used as primaries rather than pure secondaries.

[mr.WHO]

Looking at 3.0 Beta 5 I noticed one thing for L-size turrets:
- Large Pulse turret - rapid fire from both barrels
- Large plasma turret - salvo fire from both barrels
- Large beam turret - fire only from one barrel, then wait, then fire from another.


This might be a reason why beams sux so much comparing to others (at least for L-size turrets, M-turrets seems to be single barrel fire across all types except Flak turret).

[JackONeill23]

Beam Weapons are useless in Beta 3.0 right now....

https://youtu.be/Hh2H_WoR3w8

[GCU Grey Area]

Beam Weapons are useless in Beta 3.0 right now....

https://youtu.be/Hh2H_WoR3w8

Don't think using SETA really helped in that situation. Looked like for the few seconds when SETA wasn't running those Beams were having a noticeable (albeit relatively low) impact on the K's shields. As soon as SETA went back on effect of Beams was MUCH more limited. Recommend against use of SETA in a combat situation, messes with a lot of things running the simulation at an accelerated rate. Beams have been toned down quite a bit in 3.0b, but still wouldn't go so far as to call them "useless".

[Buzz2005]

why is it still most expensive gun turret?

[cool_lad]

I think the issue is with beams in general which combines the heat generation of plasmas and the range of shotguns with incredibly low DPS and very high cost.

They are, bluntly put, flashlights only good for putting on a light show; with even the L beam turret having a DPS of about 88MJ.

[cool_lad]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

[Alan Phipps]

Last post merged with existing active thread.

[GCU Grey Area]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

Beam turrets may be a bit underpowered, however the fixed Beams on M ships work fine as they are. Very fond of them - vital component of my favourite 2-gun M ship loadout: Beam + Shard. Beam for long range precision, Shard for short range punch. The 2 weapons work well together (assuming sensible weapon grouping), providing a highly versatile combination.

As for cooling, you can do something about that. Even the basic Mistral cooling mod makes a significant difference. Have one installed on my Minotaur Raider's Beam to get +30% cooling, -31% damage, +25% reload. Even with the reduced damage compared to standard stats it has proved an effective weapon - so much so that even though I do have higher tier mods available I've never quite got round to upgrading it.

As for your suggestion of adding a charge time to Beams (specifically to make them useless against fighters), would hate that myself. Main reason I equip one is precisely because they're effective against fast moving & evasive S ships (while Shard is primarily for M targets). Adding a mechanism to make Beams useless for that purpose would render the weapon useless for me. Would not be happy if that happened.

[chew-ie]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

Beam turrets may be a bit underpowered, however the fixed Beams on M ships work fine as they are. Very fond of them - vital component of my favourite 2-gun M ship loadout: Beam + Shard. Beam for long range precision, Shard for short range punch. The 2 weapons work well together (assuming sensible weapon grouping), providing a highly versatile combination.

As for cooling, you can do something about that. Even the basic Mistral cooling mod makes a significant difference. Have one installed on my Minotaur Raider's Beam to get +30% cooling, -31% damage, +25% reload. Even with the reduced damage compared to standard stats it has proved an effective weapon - so much so that even though I do have higher tier mods available I've never quite got round to upgrading it.

As for your suggestion of adding a charge time to Beams (specifically to make them useless against fighters), would hate that myself. Main reason I equip one is precisely because they're effective against fast moving & evasive S ships (while Shard is primarily for M targets). Adding a mechanism to make Beams useless for that purpose would render the weapon useless for me. Would not be happy if that happened.

Interesting seeing someone using shard guns - did those get a tweak as well? As for M lasers - I really have too look into the mods again, too...

[GCU Grey Area]

Interesting seeing someone using shard guns - did those get a tweak as well?

Don't think so, at least no tweaks I'm aware of. Shard is just a weapon I've enjoyed using right from the start. Exceptionally high projectile speed & does a ton of damage when the ship you're shooting at is close enough to be hit by the entire blast. Downsides are the spread (much of it's impact is lost beyond about 2km) & a tendency to overheat like crazy. Shard on my Minotaur can fire precisely 9 shots before it overheats & it fires them bloody fast (Slayer mod: +28% damage, -12% cooling, +96% reload), so really needs to be paired with a second gun for use at longer ranges, or while waiting for Shard to cool down. Find Beam with a cooling mod complements it really well.

[Warnoise]

Beams are, bluntly put, no good in their present state. They seem like the worst of both worlds when it comes to weapons.

Beams combine the short usage times (high heat generation) and high cost of heavy hitting weapons with DPS that's so low that they make pulse lasers look like god tier weapons in comparison.

As main weapons they overheat within seconds while putting out very low quantities of damage, and as turrets their max (ie L size turret) DPS of 88 MJ makes them great at engaging absolutely no enemies whatsoever with some of the lowest ranges around for good measure.

I know that the devs feel comfortable with weapons as they are now, but beams are a rather egregious example of a weapons that's so bad it really does need to change.

Suggestion

It's pretty apparent that beams getting high damage that's commensurate to their price and heat generation, without something to limit their use against lighter ships, would make them OP against fighters. Therefore, I would like to propose that they be given much higher damage alongside a charge up time requirement similar to railguns, to make them into short ranged heavy weapons that can find a niche as an alternative to plasmas.

Beam turrets may be a bit underpowered, however the fixed Beams on M ships work fine as they are. Very fond of them - vital component of my favourite 2-gun M ship loadout: Beam + Shard. Beam for long range precision, Shard for short range punch. The 2 weapons work well together (assuming sensible weapon grouping), providing a highly versatile combination.

As for cooling, you can do something about that. Even the basic Mistral cooling mod makes a significant difference. Have one installed on my Minotaur Raider's Beam to get +30% cooling, -31% damage, +25% reload. Even with the reduced damage compared to standard stats it has proved an effective weapon - so much so that even though I do have higher tier mods available I've never quite got round to upgrading it.

As for your suggestion of adding a charge time to Beams (specifically to make them useless against fighters), would hate that myself. Main reason I equip one is precisely because they're effective against fast moving & evasive S ships (while Shard is primarily for M targets). Adding a mechanism to make Beams useless for that purpose would render the weapon useless for me. Would not be happy if that happened.

Interesting seeing someone using shard guns - did those get a tweak as well? As for M lasers - I really have too look into the mods again, too...

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

[GCU Grey Area]

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

Crap weapon? If you truly think that you were using it wrong. Damage output isn't far behind Plasma, yet has accuracy (i.e. projectile speed) superior to Pulse. You do however need to use it the correct way. If you start shooting as soon as a target is in nominal effective range you waste a lot of it's power due to shot spread & weapon probably overheats before it has had a chance to be used effectively (suspect this is why you dislike it). With a little patience however (i.e. wait a second or two) until your target is slightly closer & it's devastating: roughly 2x Bolt damage, 3x Pulse damage & more accurate than both. I don't use it "just for fun", I use it because it's effective & get better results with it than the alternatives - Pulse is reasonably accurate but low damage; Bolt's projectile speed & damage are mediocre at best; Plasma's speed is truly awful, even if damage is decent.

[cool_lad]

Shard is a crap weapon. Some people maybe use it just for fun. But in terms of functionality, you have many other better choices.

Crap weapon? If you truly think that you were using it wrong. Damage output isn't far behind Plasma, yet has accuracy (i.e. projectile speed) superior to Pulse. You do however need to use it the correct way. If you start shooting as soon as a target is in nominal effective range you waste a lot of it's power due to shot spread & weapon probably overheats before it has had a chance to be used effectively (suspect this is why you dislike it). With a little patience however (i.e. wait a second or two) until your target is slightly closer & it's devastating: roughly 2x Bolt damage, 3x Pulse damage & more accurate than both. I don't use it "just for fun", I use it because it's effective & get better results with it than the alternatives - Pulse is reasonably accurate but low damage; Bolt's projectile speed & damage are mediocre at best; Plasma's speed is truly awful, even if damage is decent.

The damage output of beams is well below that of pulse lasers; and the output on turrets is less bad more completely and utterly useless; effectively falling as it does into the single digits.

Not to mention that pulse lasers come with less heat generation, more range and more damage to boot.

[Alan Phipps]

Are you sure that some of you are not arguing a bit more about your combat playstyles now (and getting away from the beam weapons topic) and not so much about inherent weapon game balance?

In the end I would suppose that AI combat and OOS combat are the only real tests of balance since different players will usually find ways to take advantage of weapon type positives and ways to mitigate their negatives. Then of course there are weapon and turret mods that could skew or blur the results anyway.

[mr.WHO]

I think one of the issue with beams is that they don't have their niche.
Pulse and Bolt already are primary point defence.
Shard is close range shotgun.
Then you have flaks.
Also 3.0 will add those blue short duration beams (dunno their name).


I see beams in following way:
L-turrets - long range and precision but lower dammage
M-turrets - long range and precision but lower dammage (main purpose would be anti-missile, than anti-anything else)
Fighter mount - more dammage toward surface elements (you melt them)?

[chew-ie]

I think one of the issue with beams is that they don't have their niche.

[..]

M-turrets - long range and precision but lower dammage (main purpose would be anti-missile, than anti-anything else)

They'd make excellent missile defense (which we need badly)

[ZombiePotatoSalad]

Since the game was stated to have a more tactical slant, this could be part of it. Capital ships are best used against other capital ships and stations, which would make sense for them having large, powerful, slow-firing main guns. Every other hardpoint is for point-defense.