10 points you think they should be!

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Axeface
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Axeface » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:18

Gween wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 14:49
so you want to limit every player even if they think different just because you want a limit for yourself? I think the way, where the fleetsize is unlimited and you set your own limit (if you want one) is better for everyone.
Sorry I should have said 'soft' limits (like i said in a post earlier). Where if the player has too many ships they take rep hits, they can still break the limits if they want but their expansion will be harder and take longer if they do because they might be at war with everyone - i'de wager the type of player that wants to take over the universe would welcome that? Ive seen a lot of people complain that the game is too easy once you have a shipyard, this kind of thing would make it harder and at the same time fullfil a lore role for those that care about immersion and believibility.

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Gween
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Gween » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:35

Axeface wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:18
Gween wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 14:49
so you want to limit every player even if they think different just because you want a limit for yourself? I think the way, where the fleetsize is unlimited and you set your own limit (if you want one) is better for everyone.
Sorry I should have said 'soft' limits (like i said in a post earlier). Where if the player has too many ships they take rep hits, they can still break the limits if they want but their expansion will be harder and take longer if they do because they might be at war with everyone - i'de wager the type of player that wants to take over the universe would welcome that? Ive seen a lot of people complain that the game is too easy once you have a shipyard, this kind of thing would make it harder and at the same time fullfil a lore role for those that care about immersion and believibility.
Well, the problem is, At the moment it is easily possible to take over a sector with around 5 destroyers, a carrier and a few fighters (I did it because HOP hates me in my main savegame) So the question is, How you want to balance it? It won't affect the "universe conquerer" if you place a potential (indirect) limit at 100 ships. But having the limit at 5 destroyers already would be way too limiting. It also won't matter in the endgame because you simply don't rely on the other factions anymore once you have a selfsustaining shipyard and some stations that sell wares so that you also have unlimited money. There's also the fact that most factions don't even have a fleet/ don't use it to counteract your building of a huge fleet. Only big fleets I see are HOP and TEL. MIN, ANT, PAR barely have any destroyers. ARG fleet is just sitting in Argon prime in my game, no matter what happens in their other sectors.
Point is: While they might get angry at you, in late game, you don't need them at all, but they also can't do more than throw rocks at you ships because they don't have proper fleets to counter you

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by GCU Grey Area » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:55

100 ships? Would hate that myself, as I would any limit on ships. In my current game one of my stations on it's own has way more ships than that assigned to it - 60 M Miners, 25 XL freighters (Nomads) & 50 M gunships (parked on the docking bays of those freighters). Would absolutely hate to hit an arbitrary ship limit which means I can't continue the game because I can't get any more ships to support my stations.

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Gween » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 16:02

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:55
100 ships? Would hate that myself, as I would any limit on ships. In my current game one of my stations on it's own has way more ships than that assigned to it - 60 M Miners, 25 XL freighters (Nomads) & 50 M gunships (parked on the docking bays of those freighters). Would absolutely hate to hit an arbitrary ship limit which means I can't continue the game because I can't get any more ships to support my stations.
Well, as I said, I don't like any limit myself, but those guys are talking about a "soft limit" where you just have to pay taxes for having more than x amount of ships and factions don't like it when you have more than y amount of military ships

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 17:21

Gween wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 16:02
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:55
100 ships? Would hate that myself, as I would any limit on ships. In my current game one of my stations on it's own has way more ships than that assigned to it - 60 M Miners, 25 XL freighters (Nomads) & 50 M gunships (parked on the docking bays of those freighters). Would absolutely hate to hit an arbitrary ship limit which means I can't continue the game because I can't get any more ships to support my stations.
Well, as I said, I don't like any limit myself, but those guys are talking about a "soft limit" where you just have to pay taxes for having more than x amount of ships and factions don't like it when you have more than y amount of military ships
Well I don't want to use again my argument It is no longer just a matter of game limits. It is a question that you can build a faction. This should imply that how that faction acts in the game. It can't be that the rest of the factions don't care about you. Only if you attack them they take you into account because it makes no sense. There must be causes, effects, interaction and a balance of power.

That is why some political rules of the game are so important because otherwise your presence in the game has no other meaning than to accumulate money and ships. And the limit of ships is something that has existed in reality and could be an editable number for the user.

As for the borders, it is something that happens today and has always happened in history. That is why there will be people (or AI) that will give more importance to some sectors or others. And the struggle of interests, preferences and location will make more sense than ever. It is also true that they plan to add more sectors so the space will be more communicated.

 That would open the doors to many people who don't have NASA computers. I have a computer almost from NASA and in my game the game was very slow.

Also a point that I would add is the number of rooms as seen in some mods in large ships. Like the bar or other modules that gives a huge immersion in space and it was already done in XReb.

alexthespaniard
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 17:38

The objectives of AI are also very important and must be based on something. They must have their logical preferences for and against you Also your role in the game.

But the game will be summed up in building 0 - Exploration 1 - ships that mine 2 - Ships that trade - 3 resource stations - 4 - Immense stations that do everything and produce non-stop or logical ships and products.

And in the middle some isolated combat and repetitive missions without meaning or clear reasons.

And nobody will do anything to you along the way if you are not near an Xenon sector or attacking someone.

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 17:47

I don't want to criticize egosoft in an evil way. I try to be constructive and think of a game that I love and in its community and I hope it is a game to extend it decades as warband.

That is why I think that I believe in this project and because they have given me reasons to believe in the constant improvements. I consider myself a fanboy of the X series but being a fan does not mean being blind or not wanting to aspire to more.

Otherwise I would be playing Star Citizen or any other game. If we think it is because we are excited and we care. (It's just a clarification)

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Hago » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 18:08

100% agree with the OP. These proposals would make the game much deeper. In the moment the game is a little bit too flat. For me it kills the immersion that you can be friend with all factions without any difficulties, you can mine ores in front of the argon headquater and sell it to hop, etc.

The game mechanics and controls are much more complicated than every rudimentary faction system could be. I cannot comprehend the arguments from gween in any way.

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Gween
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Gween » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 19:05

alexthespaniard wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 17:21
Gween wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 16:02
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 15:55
100 ships? Would hate that myself, as I would any limit on ships. In my current game one of my stations on it's own has way more ships than that assigned to it - 60 M Miners, 25 XL freighters (Nomads) & 50 M gunships (parked on the docking bays of those freighters). Would absolutely hate to hit an arbitrary ship limit which means I can't continue the game because I can't get any more ships to support my stations.
Well, as I said, I don't like any limit myself, but those guys are talking about a "soft limit" where you just have to pay taxes for having more than x amount of ships and factions don't like it when you have more than y amount of military ships
Well I don't want to use again my argument It is no longer just a matter of game limits. It is a question that you can build a faction. This should imply that how that faction acts in the game. It can't be that the rest of the factions don't care about you. Only if you attack them they take you into account because it makes no sense. There must be causes, effects, interaction and a balance of power.

That is why some political rules of the game are so important because otherwise your presence in the game has no other meaning than to accumulate money and ships. And the limit of ships is something that has existed in reality and could be an editable number for the user.

As for the borders, it is something that happens today and has always happened in history. That is why there will be people (or AI) that will give more importance to some sectors or others. And the struggle of interests, preferences and location will make more sense than ever. It is also true that they plan to add more sectors so the space will be more communicated.

 That would open the doors to many people who don't have NASA computers. I have a computer almost from NASA and in my game the game was very slow.

Also a point that I would add is the number of rooms as seen in some mods in large ships. Like the bar or other modules that gives a huge immersion in space and it was already done in XReb.
I'm sorry, but it's sometimes very hard to follow your english...
I noticed that you still haven't answered my question on how you are supposed to start a new savegame if you need to buy and earn permits to do anything.

but let's go to your bullet points:
If you PC can't handle large numbers of ships, you can either upgrade or just not get millions of ships. I myself have very big frame drops because I have a lot of stations and my whole fleet in Nopileos's fortune. But, I accept that because I can see what I have achieved in my savegame when I enter the sector and it makes me happy (because I usually struggle with investing a lot of time into one game/savegame)
If you're not like me and prefer having a stable game, then just build the proper amount of ships you can handle and then stop.

They don't add more "rooms" in spaceships because they want the rooms to have sense and not just be a kind of decoration that you look at once and then never go back there again.
As for the borders, it is something that happens today and has always happened in history. That is why there will be people (or AI) that will give more importance to some sectors or others. And the struggle of interests, preferences and location will make more sense than ever. It is also true that they plan to add more sectors so the space will be more communicated.
I don't get that sentence at all. I guess you're referring to me saying that you have no way to avoid faction sectors with your fleet, but I don't see how you try to explain why I'm wrong.
Let's imagine this: I order 5 behemoth's at an argon shipyard. Let's say I conquered one of the xenon sectors and made it my home sector.
-How am I supposed to get my fleets there without making the factions angry?
-How am I supposed to get to the xenon sectors at the other side of the universe without making the factions angry?
Do I just have to obliterate every sector I go through? Because otherwise the factions just start attacking me?
Or do I just have to accept that I can't move my fleet freely without risking a war with one or more of the factions?

You also want a balance of power. That balance would exist if the factions would have proper AI. For example, in my savegame, HOP is constantly building more and more military ships. I can't outproduce them (yet) even though I can trade with all other factions in the game and have access to all their technology. If I were to attack ANT on the other hand, I could obliterate them in maybe an Hour or two, because they don't have a single military ship.
So what X4 needs is a proper AI that adapts to the progress of the savegame, not "hurr durr, you have 20 destroyers, we don't like that"

Again: X4 isn't some Paradox "conquer the map"-4x-game. All your ideas are perfect. Just not in X4

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 19:47

1 how you are supposed to start a new savegame if you need to buy and earn permits to do anything

Some times a Save Game is not that important if there is a significant improvement of the game and its mechanics.

2 If you're not like me and prefer having a stable game, then just build the proper amount of ships you can handle and then stop.

I think thats not the point. I believe that satisfaction is in being the best in a few game rules not only producing without stopping. And having no impediment makes the game just a matter of mathematics and you recognize that it is easy to reach that point and has no medium-long satisfaction.

3 I don't get that sentence at all. I guess you're referring to me saying that you have no way to avoid faction sectors with your fleet, but I don't see how you try to explain why I'm wrong.
Let's imagine this: I order 5 behemoth's at an argon shipyard. Let's say I conquered one of the xenon sectors and made it my home sector.
-How am I supposed to get my fleets there without making the factions angry?
-How am I supposed to get to the xenon sectors at the other side of the universe without making the factions angry?
Do I just have to obliterate every sector I go through? Because otherwise the factions just start attacking me?
Or do I just have to accept that I can't move my fleet freely without risking a war with one or more of the factions?

ME---


If it is not your sector you must pass according to the treaty without having "x" Ships at the same time. Always dependent on the influence in the universe and the relationship with the faction or the state of the alliance. It could also be justifying that you attack another faction and allow you a limited time with a military access. There are many ways.

I don't see China going through 200 tanks near Moscou with no justification.

4 Again: X4 isn't some Paradox "conquer the map"-4x-game. All your ideas are perfect. Just not in X4

I suppose if you are not part of the EGOSOFT team, it is a valid opinion like mine. If you are, I suppose that is why the community is transmitting and giving opinions. I think so far there are many people who are with me take a look would not be a bad idea.

Again I'm sorry for my broken English.

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by eXalt! » Wed, 15. Jan 20, 22:40

Hago wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 18:08
In the moment the game is a little bit too flat. For me it kills the immersion that you can be friend with all factions without any difficulties, you can mine ores in front of the argon headquater and sell it to hop, etc.
Very much this. And more:
You can sign to both sides of a war and work for both without repercussion.
One faction can expand while the others sit and watch.

And even more:
Player faction can claim for himself the rule of some (lorewise) populated sectors and nobody cares, Gained a monopoly on some ware? Fine, +30 in relations. Make a fleet larger than that of the Teladi: ok. Obliterate the Teladi: no problem... you are worse than the Xenons but you are +30 with everyone.


Nobody reacts to fluctuations in power in any way, that’s goes deeply against immersion and happens to be quite boring once you reach certain power for yourself. No need for supercomplicated politics but some simplistic interactions, like what I described in my previous post, could add tons to the game.

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Gween
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Gween » Thu, 16. Jan 20, 13:45

alexthespaniard wrote:
Wed, 15. Jan 20, 19:47
1 how you are supposed to start a new savegame if you need to buy and earn permits to do anything

Some times a Save Game is not that important if there is a significant improvement of the game and its mechanics.

2 If you're not like me and prefer having a stable game, then just build the proper amount of ships you can handle and then stop.

I think thats not the point. I believe that satisfaction is in being the best in a few game rules not only producing without stopping. And having no impediment makes the game just a matter of mathematics and you recognize that it is easy to reach that point and has no medium-long satisfaction.

3 I don't get that sentence at all. I guess you're referring to me saying that you have no way to avoid faction sectors with your fleet, but I don't see how you try to explain why I'm wrong.
Let's imagine this: I order 5 behemoth's at an argon shipyard. Let's say I conquered one of the xenon sectors and made it my home sector.
-How am I supposed to get my fleets there without making the factions angry?
-How am I supposed to get to the xenon sectors at the other side of the universe without making the factions angry?
Do I just have to obliterate every sector I go through? Because otherwise the factions just start attacking me?
Or do I just have to accept that I can't move my fleet freely without risking a war with one or more of the factions?

ME---


If it is not your sector you must pass according to the treaty without having "x" Ships at the same time. Always dependent on the influence in the universe and the relationship with the faction or the state of the alliance. It could also be justifying that you attack another faction and allow you a limited time with a military access. There are many ways.

I don't see China going through 200 tanks near Moscou with no justification.

4 Again: X4 isn't some Paradox "conquer the map"-4x-game. All your ideas are perfect. Just not in X4

I suppose if you are not part of the EGOSOFT team, it is a valid opinion like mine. If you are, I suppose that is why the community is transmitting and giving opinions. I think so far there are many people who are with me take a look would not be a bad idea.

Again I'm sorry for my broken English.
Some times a Save Game is not that important if there is a significant improvement of the game and its mechanics.
So we just ignore new players?
I rephrase my question. Alex just bought X4 and wants to play. He starts a new game. What is he supposed to do? He can't trade, because he has to buy a permit. He can't mine, because he needs to buy a permit. He can't do missions, because realistically, if a faction doesn't let you trade with them, they won't allow Alex to do missions for them.
So how is Alex supposed to make money? How is Alex supposed to gain reputation? When he literally can't interact with the factions in any way.

Now the second question:

Phillip (actually me) has played X4 for in one save for more than 500 hours. He makes multiple million credits every few minutes and has a thriving economy. Suddenly, you need to buy permits to trade and mine.
How does it affect Phillip? He just goes to the faction rep and buys them like it's nothing, because even if the permits cost 1million credits each, Phillip has that money back in one minute.

So the main question: How do you think the early game would look with that system and how do you balance it in a way that it doesn't just become a minor inconvinience that you solve with 2 klicks in the lategame?
I think thats not the point. I believe that satisfaction is in being the best in a few game rules not only producing without stopping. And having no impediment makes the game just a matter of mathematics and you recognize that it is easy to reach that point and has no medium-long satisfaction.
Part of X game's lategame is building huge fleets that can fight any possible threat. For me personally, it's even always a goal in every X game. Why do you want to limit me with that?
If you don't like it, I totally respect it. I even get that it can cause problems for you. But you shouldn't force the whole playerbase to a limit just because you want it. It'd be fine as an option. So that whoever wants it can activate it and be happy.
If it is not your sector you must pass according to the treaty without having "x" Ships at the same time. Always dependent on the influence in the universe and the relationship with the faction or the state of the alliance. It could also be justifying that you attack another faction and allow you a limited time with a military access. There are many ways.
That system you want already exists: If your reputation is too low, the faction will attack your military ships moving through the sector.
Another thing is: In the late game, there's no way to control all your ships manually. You will have ships that independently move in and out of sectors. So coincidently at some point, 5 of my destroyers enter a sector.
So I literally risked a war with a faction because of a coincidence? When China moves their tanks to their border, there are orders for that and they have direct control over what they do. When I tell my ships to fly around the universe, and they suddenly happen to be all in one sector, that's not my fault.

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by ajime » Thu, 16. Jan 20, 15:02

Over complication without much benefits.

alexthespaniard
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Thu, 16. Jan 20, 19:48

- So we just ignore new players?
---By making new rules you do not reject new players but otherwise you open new ones that consider diplomacy poor.


- rephrase my question. Alex just bought X4 and wants to play. He starts a new game. What is he supposed to do? He can't trade, because he has to buy a permit. He can't mine, because he needs to buy a permit. He can't do missions, because realistically, if a faction doesn't let you trade with them, they won't allow Alex to do missions for them.
So how is Alex supposed to make money? How is Alex supposed to gain reputation? When he literally can't interact with the factions in any way.

---We have different beginnings of the game should not be difficult to add a little tutorial to these beginnings if you are worried about new players As Egosoft is already doing. The Early game is also poor in some aspects or in its approach. Only by mining crystals in Argon Prime doing the horseshoe you get between 40 and 80 million with what you can do what you want. It would be a way to enjoy the start of the game of small trades such as mining or commerce for longer when you barely have 1 to 10 ships. In this way you enjoy an in-depth game that exists but goes unnoticed. (Like in X3)

- How does it affect Phillip?

--- You win REP fith this faction and loose REP with their enemies .

- How do you think the early game would look with that system and how do you balance it in a way that it doesn't just become a minor inconvinience that you solve with 2 klicks in the lategame?

--- Being a small citizen of the space who practices on a small scale the different roles. (mining, commerce, soldiers). In the late game In the late game I said it would be interesting a parameter of influence (or respect) in space. Where the player has more weight and can demand more things militarily, commercially and diplomatically. For example, in the case of mining, you can have more% of extraction (Regarding the sector faction) without being upset by the rest of the Nations.

- Part of X game's lategame is building huge fleets that can fight any possible threat. For me personally, it's even always a goal in every X game. Why do you want to limit me with that?
If you don't like it, I totally respect it. I even get that it can cause problems for you. But you shouldn't force the whole playerbase to a limit just because you want it. It'd be fine as an option. So that whoever wants it can activate it and be happy.

--- It is a creative way to give freedom to the player. I explain myself, in the Empire total war one can choose the size of the regiments to give the game more stability. Or in the case of Warband in the base game they put a limit that you can edit with a mod where you customize the units in battle. In the case of this game it would be about allowing the player to limit or not limit the elements in the space according to his taste or ability of his computer. In my case, I think it is a game that is beautiful enough to enjoy at more than 25 fps.

-That system you want already exists: If your reputation is too low, the faction will attack your military ships moving through the sector.

--- It is a fairly poor system that does not make you feel immersed in the game because as I said before you don't mind AI. Except in the only case that attacks are too simple a parameter.

Another thing is: In the late game, there's no way to control all your ships manually. You will have ships that independently move in and out of sectors. So coincidently at some point, 5 of my destroyers enter a sector.
So I literally risked a war with a faction because of a coincidence? When China moves their tanks to their border, there are orders for that and they have direct control over what they do. When I tell my ships to fly around the universe, and they suddenly happen to be all in one sector, that's not my fault.

--- It would not be about limiting all types of ships. Only the military L and XL.

-Also a point that I would add is the number of rooms as seen in some mods in large ships. Like the bar or other modules that gives a huge immersion in space and it was already done in XReb.

--- Of course they will have their function as missions or a decorative function. That one can enjoy walking on his ship while having a long Trip.

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Thu, 16. Jan 20, 20:03

In the end what I ask is not so complicated. They are simply conditions that add and subtract reputation with the factions.

An influence parameter that affects some% of quotas in mining and military.

Rooms that are already. And approaches that are already there.

War targets.

A parameter for trade to be more entertaining than is the quality.

And diplomacy options such as military access.

And a parameter to be able to stop (in an editable way) The amount of elements in the computer or the game.

I don't ask for a Stellaris but it's not a bad game to watch. I ask for a minimum work in essential aspects for any SpaceSim

alexthespaniard
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Fri, 17. Jan 20, 09:12

I just found a video that perfectly explains some of the points discussed at this point. Clarify that it is not a video that has anything to do with me. I have a YT channel where I upload X4 but it is in Spanish I have never uploaded anything in English for an obvious reason:

https://youtu.be/odGJNyZLx7I


I think it's a criticism that if one day Egosoft should look. It can be interesting for development. Surely with their creativity they find a solution to a problem that the community is increasingly facing. Especially when it reaches the late game.

Before highlighting that X4 has brought me some sensations that I had never had in any game. And I would like to thank the team for taking the community so seriously and improving day after day.

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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by Mountain_Puncher » Fri, 17. Jan 20, 18:24

@ OP

I generally like your ideas and have a firm grasp as to how this could be transcribed to the game play environment. Unfortunately I do not work at egosoft. I have always struggled with point 3 of your list and as to why egosoft precludes it from their products. I recall in my adolescence, I played Digital Anvil's game Freelancer. A dynamic reputation system was available in that archaic space game and I am baffled as to why it hasn't been implemented in X4: Foundations. The concept of the trade lane was utilized, for instance.

I personally would like to see faction AI generate war targets as you say to make dynamic missions. Since, the game is a cheating illusion, the opposition AI could produce an equivalent defense mission. As such, produced ships would be directed to these "fake situations" to make more conducive the illusion of war in which the player could participate on either side. Instead, I think the game has random patrols of a few lonely ships meeting their doom arbitrarily.

They aren't done, so maybe there is hope. I suppose in the meantime, idle forum speculation and "arm chair developer" discussion can suffice for entertainment.

alexthespaniard
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Re: 10 points you think they should be!

Post by alexthespaniard » Tue, 21. Jan 20, 10:06

Mountain_Puncher wrote:
Fri, 17. Jan 20, 18:24
@ OP

I generally like your ideas and have a firm grasp as to how this could be transcribed to the game play environment. Unfortunately I do not work at egosoft. I have always struggled with point 3 of your list and as to why egosoft precludes it from their products. I recall in my adolescence, I played Digital Anvil's game Freelancer. A dynamic reputation system was available in that archaic space game and I am baffled as to why it hasn't been implemented in X4: Foundations. The concept of the trade lane was utilized, for instance.

I personally would like to see faction AI generate war targets as you say to make dynamic missions. Since, the game is a cheating illusion, the opposition AI could produce an equivalent defense mission. As such, produced ships would be directed to these "fake situations" to make more conducive the illusion of war in which the player could participate on either side. Instead, I think the game has random patrols of a few lonely ships meeting their doom arbitrarily.

They aren't done, so maybe there is hope. I suppose in the meantime, idle forum speculation and "arm chair developer" discussion can suffice for entertainment.
I think they are receptive. It looks in the Streaming and it looks like they are improving at a pretty hopeful speed.

But yes, they have failed to argue the game and a bit in the role of each element.

The feeling of immersion of the game is very important and it seems that they have not taken it into account at the moment.

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