Skill and training Feedback

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Cormyr
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Cormyr » Fri, 3. Apr 20, 20:58

So what is the most effective way to level a trader or miner aside from seminars?
Last edited by Cormyr on Fri, 3. Apr 20, 21:06, edited 1 time in total.

pref
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by pref » Fri, 3. Apr 20, 21:01

Hope i'm wrong, but seems fighting is quickest by far, and only fighting increases the correct skills (piloting+morale)?

Please someone correct me :)

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Cormyr » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 01:20

I don't know. Even after 8+ hours of work my autominers didn't get a single additional star in piloting. Not even 1/3 of a star. Instead, the management skill went up to 2 1/2 and stays there. This cannot be intended.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by TonyEvans » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 01:46

I think what might put people to rest is a Dev putting, in numbers, how skill gains are calculated.

How much XP is needed per level
How much xp is generated by each task? And towards what skill?
For example:

Morale: Gained by -
Destroying an enemy ship in combat, 50xp.
Performing a trade resulting in Profit. 10xp/profit%

Piloting: Gained by -
Exploration - 45xp/hour
Distribute Wares - 10xp/purchase, 15xp/sale
Trade - same as for Morale, maybe 15xp/profit%

Something along those lines, clear and in the open, might allay some doubts that people are having about Egosoft making these changes then being super vague with a "It works guys, trust us" when most everyone is saying it pretty much doesn't.

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chew-ie
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by chew-ie » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 01:48

If you are looking for more information behind the design decisions and the general plans of Egosoft I recommend watching this stream at around both 00:35:00 and 00:42:00:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/582495258

Bernd gives a lot of insight there - and tips on how to train your employees.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Raevyan » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:05

Well all I can say is: 20+ hours of real time play (no seta) and yet not a single miner, explorer or manually ordered trader gained even a third of a Star in piloting. This is nonsense.
I get they don’t want people to automate things from the beginning but by the time even one pilot is skilled enough I already built 20+ stations. There are also other easy ways to earn money faster than having 5-10 auto traders running.

PS: i also haven’t seen any seminars for 2 star pilots to get them to a third...

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by TonyEvans » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:11

chew-ie wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 01:48
If you are looking for more information behind the design decisions and the general plans of Egosoft I recommend watching this stream at around both 00:35:00 and 00:42:00:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/582495258

Bernd gives a lot of insight there - and tips on how to train your employees.
Listening to it while I play.

He says Exploration and Ventures...

I can't recall ever seeing skill gains from pilots on Exploration (behavior or right-click command) and Ventures are locked out for anyone who modifies their game, which is a very common thing to do.

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chew-ie
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by chew-ie » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:27

rene6740 wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:05
Well all I can say is: 20+ hours of real time play (no seta) and yet not a single miner, explorer or manually ordered trader gained even a third of a Star in piloting. This is nonsense.
I get they don’t want people to automate things from the beginning but by the time even one pilot is skilled enough I already built 20+ stations. There are also other easy ways to earn money faster than having 5-10 auto traders running.

PS: i also haven’t seen any seminars for 2 star pilots to get them to a third...
You have do missions for them. Skill progression is also tied to on how "boring" the task is. Letting your pilot circle for hours the same trade runs or already explored sectors, you won't get much of experience. (see the twitch stream for more insights from Bernd)
TonyEvans wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:11
I can't recall ever seeing skill gains from pilots on Exploration (behavior or right-click command) and Ventures are locked out for anyone who modifies their game, which is a very common thing to do.
That's Bernds recommendation as well - if you can't bear the new system, use mods.

And I wouldn't say that mod usage is a very common thing for the majority of the players. I for one don't use mods as long as not all DLCs (=all races are included) are released. I loved mods back then in X3, but X4 has a lot to offer already without the need to use mods. If you don't have to turn it into X3 / X:Rebirth² that is.

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Cormyr
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Cormyr » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:29

I get their reasoning behind their design decisions. I'm just not sure whether or not there are bugs behind the scenes which make this already slow process of leveling up almost impossible.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by tomchk » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:48

Yeah I wonder if the particulars are exactly how they intended, at least for the lack of 2 star seminars from missions.
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by TonyEvans » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 03:01

chew-ie wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:27
rene6740 wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:05
Well all I can say is: 20+ hours of real time play (no seta) and yet not a single miner, explorer or manually ordered trader gained even a third of a Star in piloting. This is nonsense.
I get they don’t want people to automate things from the beginning but by the time even one pilot is skilled enough I already built 20+ stations. There are also other easy ways to earn money faster than having 5-10 auto traders running.

PS: i also haven’t seen any seminars for 2 star pilots to get them to a third...
You have do missions for them. Skill progression is also tied to on how "boring" the task is. Letting your pilot circle for hours the same trade runs or already explored sectors, you won't get much of experience. (see the twitch stream for more insights from Bernd)
TonyEvans wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 02:11
I can't recall ever seeing skill gains from pilots on Exploration (behavior or right-click command) and Ventures are locked out for anyone who modifies their game, which is a very common thing to do.
That's Bernds recommendation as well - if you can't bear the new system, use mods.

And I wouldn't say that mod usage is a very common thing for the majority of the players. I for one don't use mods as long as not all DLCs (=all races are included) are released. I loved mods back then in X3, but X4 has a lot to offer already without the need to use mods. If you don't have to turn it into X3 / X:Rebirth² that is.
Okay see, to me that's a cop out. "The systems there. If you don't like it, use mods."

That's the thing, the system's not there - not really. If it works, it doesn't work well. And that's the issue people are having. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions, made one or two myself. ES seems dedicated to sticking with what has mostly looked like a broken feature.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by chew-ie » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 03:14

TonyEvans wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 03:01
Okay see, to me that's a cop out. "The systems there. If you don't like it, use mods."

That's the thing, the system's not there - not really. If it works, it doesn't work well. And that's the issue people are having. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions, made one or two myself. ES seems dedicated to sticking with what has mostly looked like a broken feature.
It's not there - yet. Bernd and others have pointed out that this is something still being worked on. And yeah, I am in the discussion since it started last week @beta forums.

And ES is dedicated to work on solutions which work for a broader audiance - not just some. At the end, they are doing this jack-of-all-trades-master-of-non game for about 20 years.

And the out-of-jail-card "use mods" - it's really just for those who can't bear with the new system. It's always that way in life - you can't just please everyone, but here we have at least the means to adjust it to individual needs. It just won't come with the official release (if you want back to the previous crew system).

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by TonyEvans » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 03:17

chew-ie wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 03:14
TonyEvans wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 03:01
Okay see, to me that's a cop out. "The systems there. If you don't like it, use mods."

That's the thing, the system's not there - not really. If it works, it doesn't work well. And that's the issue people are having. I've seen a lot of really good suggestions, made one or two myself. ES seems dedicated to sticking with what has mostly looked like a broken feature.
It's not there - yet. Bernd and others have pointed out that this is something still being worked on. And yeah, I am in the discussion since it started last week @beta forums.

And ES is dedicated to work on solutions which work for a broader audiance - not just some. At the end, they are doing this jack-of-all-trades-master-of-non game for about 20 years.
I do get that, and it's of course greatly appreciated.
The painful thing of this whole forum post is that they
A) Removed the ability/possibility to have higher-star crew when new ships are bought
then
B) Didn't give us a system with which to efficiently train new crew to perform the more critical Behaviors.

Removing pre-skilled crew on new ships would be fine if not for B. I'm fine with them removing or altering how skilled crew are generated with new ships, but not until a working system is in place.

Edit: Even a stop-gap measure of acquiring skilled crew based on a mix of available workforce and the station manager's level would have been a step in the right direction.
Bigger pool of people to be hired from, mixed with a more competent manager would, logically, result in a better type of crew being hired.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by ff8ff8 » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 12:34

While I like the idea of trying to make skilled crew more valuable to the player it just doesn't work at all in the current implementation.

It shouldn't be easier to get an entire capital fleet with hundreds of support fighters than to get a single 3-star pilot.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by tomchk » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 13:58

ff8ff8 wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 12:34
While I like the idea of trying to make skilled crew more valuable to the player it just doesn't work at all in the current implementation.

It shouldn't be easier to get an entire capital fleet with hundreds of support fighters than to get a single 3-star pilot.
Strongly agreed
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by pref » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 14:27

What's boring to the pilot won't get them skills so lets delegate the boredom to the player and keep our AI excited.. cmon :D
I'm fine with ventures being the only source for purple weapon mods, but have it as most effective training activity.. and make trained staff a requirement for automation?
Can't say i like the general concept.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by chew-ie » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 14:52

pref wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 14:27
What's boring to the pilot won't get them skills so lets delegate the boredom to the player and keep our AI excited.. cmon :D
I'm fine with ventures being the only source for purple weapon mods, but have it as most effective training activity.. and make trained staff a requirement for automation?
Can't say i like the general concept.
Shouldn't be that bad if we are allowed to send some more ships at once - and L + XL ships as well :twisted:

Not saying that there should be limitless venture modules (in this Community there _ARE_ people who would just ... overdo it ten fold :shock: ). But having 5 S/M modules and 1 L/XL module would be nice. :)

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Gregorovitch » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 15:00

chew-ie wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 14:52
pref wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 14:27
What's boring to the pilot won't get them skills so lets delegate the boredom to the player and keep our AI excited.. cmon :D
I'm fine with ventures being the only source for purple weapon mods, but have it as most effective training activity.. and make trained staff a requirement for automation?
Can't say i like the general concept.
Shouldn't be that bad if we are allowed to send some more ships at once - and L + XL ships as well :twisted:

Not saying that there should be limitless venture modules (in this Community there _ARE_ people who would just ... overdo it ten fold :shock: ). But having 5 S/M modules and 1 L/XL module would be nice. :)
I was about to look at ventures as the only viable means to generate a reliable supply of 3* pilots in quantity left - I've heard that you can only send one pilot at a time on a venture. If that is true then ventures are obviously a bust.

It does look at though the game is currently unplayable as there is in fact no means at all to generate the required number of 3* pilots (or any really) automatically.

I am discounting exploration as viable 'cos I am assuming that pilots can only accumulate XP with exploration if they are actually working in unexplored territory (which obviously runs out quickly as you map the universe). If that isn't true and you can just put any number of ships on explore in an y sector and they will accumulate decent XP from it I'd like to know.

Other than that the only way to play would be with a mod that deals with this situation.

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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Gavrushka » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 15:10

Cormyr wrote:
Fri, 3. Apr 20, 19:54
Do pilots even level up without seminars? My auto miner and (manual) trader didn't get 1/3 of a star after several hours now. The ship crew on the other hand has gained several stars by now.
Sector miners, do, yes, but exceptionally slowly.

What is interesting is if you look at the crew, who gain morale and engineering. - The morale improvement makes them perfect candidates for captains after applying piloting seminars. - So each mining ship can produce several future captains.

I'd not realised manual trading levelled piloting skill! - I've a couple of large freighters who I instruct to do manual trades (and have been doing for 6 months) and both are still 3*, just as they were when they took the helm.
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Re: Skill and training Feedback - Devs on the case.

Post by Rimak » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 17:01

I've posted on the steam discussions, but will just copy here also.

So I gave up on seminars and just added mods that solve the problem.
BUT.

I also thought about it. What I think is that the whole system with seminars is actually good.
STOP STOP, HEAR ME OUT.

So there is not that much issue with the seminars early when you are building up and micromanaging can be somewhat fun. The issues start to arise when you start to scale and grow the empire. So I think that there should be a somewhat simple solution to this.

1. Spread the ways of acquiring seminars. Not all people like to do missions so maybe bounties for different factions or trade-in for specific resources.

2. Add a PHQ module for training. Research that allows the training of staff of the docked ships. When the empire begins to grow almost no one wants to micromanage every single. However, building stuff and managing this academy would add an additional layer to the game.

3. Continuing HR department research on PHQ. It should be very expensive and for the late game so that the pilots you hire are at a specific level. Let's say it has multiple tiers of research. So that when you are a super-empire you would not worry what level your staff is.

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