Skill and training Feedback

[Split-knot]

Have anyone noticed their pilots leveling management instead of piloting? I have 3 ships all maxed out at 2 piloting after I gave them seminars, and I figured that after all the manual trades I ordered them to do they would at least gained 1/4 of a star, but no, instead they're all getting manager stars.

[Alm888]

Have anyone noticed their pilots leveling management instead of piloting? I have 3 ships all maxed out at 2 piloting after I gave them seminars, and I figured that after all the manual trades I ordered them to do they would at least gained 1/4 of a star, but no, instead they're all getting manager stars.

I believe they learn management because (as a tooltip points this out) management helps with trading decision-making. Pilots have been gaining some basic management even in 2.60 (I believe it caps out at 2 stars). I think it is parallel learning.
Of course, EgoSoft commentary on exact learning mechanisms and conditions is always welcome, but they are probably busy changing the rules every single update and can not write up-to-date info.

[pref]

it seems that low level pilots possess a downgraded AI, notably in combat. For instance low level pilots will have a delay before firing their missiles or using the destroyer batteries compared to high-level ones. Not only is it frustrating from a gameplay perspective, but it also makes little sense immersion wise.

This is a huge issue from day 1 since XR, that the whole concept is way too lazy. Skill system just removes features that had to be implemented anyway for the game to be usable, there are no bonus actions or capabilities that come with skills.
There are lots of parameters that they could increase from price margin through mod usage, crew skill gain rate to ship params like crew capacity or weapon compatibility (think there is some variety with split now?).

Skills in lots of cases just remove some intentional AI deficiencies, which does not feel like an improvement and is not noticeable (esp with "all" the info available regarding commands and skill impact in the docs).
Just frustration is increased with low skill employees without any solid knowledge why that guy can't fly a ship. This might be acceptable if generally AI was so perfect that there was a buffer to scale down.
Skills should turn an employee from usable to having visible bonuses that matter.

The other issue is when the skills' results are visible it usually just means not being to execute commands that are the reason to get that guy in the first place.

Then training activities are not aligned with the "profession" we are training for at all.
Need traders? Organize a huge fleet with many pilots attacking something - since only pilots will gain relevant skills not the crew. The 2 activities have nothing to do with each other, and is a no-go for people preferring a peaceful trader's game.
Need managers? Hire miners....?

Either skill increase needs to happen in roles appropriate for the trained skills so a trader should skillup relatively quickly via trading activities, managers with tasks related to station housekeeping etc. No clue how this works in 3.0 but before getting the third star via just trading simply never happened for me.

[tomchk]

it seems that low level pilots possess a downgraded AI, notably in combat. For instance low level pilots will have a delay before firing their missiles or using the destroyer batteries compared to high-level ones. Not only is it frustrating from a gameplay perspective, but it also makes little sense immersion wise.

This is a huge issue from day 1 since XR, that the whole concept is way too lazy. Skill system just removes features that had to be implemented anyway for the game to be usable, there are no bonus actions or capabilities that come with skills.
There are lots of parameters that they could increase from price margin through mod usage, crew skill gain rate to ship params like crew capacity or weapon compatibility (think there is some variety with split now?).

Skills in lots of cases just remove some intentional AI deficiencies, which does not feel like an improvement and is not noticeable (esp with "all" the info available regarding commands and skill impact in the docs).
Just frustration is increased with low skill employees without any solid knowledge why that guy can't fly a ship. This might be acceptable if generally AI was so perfect that there was a buffer to scale down.
Skills should turn an employee from usable to having visible bonuses that matter.

The other issue is when the skills' results are visible it usually just means not being to execute commands that are the reason to get that guy in the first place.

Then training activities are not aligned with the "profession" we are training for at all.
Need traders? Organize a huge fleet with many pilots attacking something - since only pilots will gain relevant skills not the crew. The 2 activities have nothing to do with each other, and is a no-go for people preferring a peaceful trader's game.
Need managers? Hire miners....?

Either skill increase needs to happen in roles appropriate for the trained skills so a trader should skillup relatively quickly via trading activities, managers with tasks related to station housekeeping etc. No clue how this works in 3.0 but before getting the third star via just trading simply never happened for me.

Agreed--these are the two main points I've made to Bernd, and I think he and the team are listening. They at least have (1) reduced the downgrading of flight AI (perhaps it should be removed completely and have bonuses for stars instead). We still need much better (2) alignment between desired role of pilot and how to train them.

[Alm888]

Come to think of it…
I kinda miss old (X: Rebirth) skillset. I think the decision to simplify skills was a mistake. Now there is no difference between combat ace and humble merchant: both require only one skill (piloting) plus "morale".

Previously (in 2.60HF2 at least), the only skill relevant to jobs was "piloting". Even 5 stars in "morale" (never seen that) won't enable a 2-star "pilot" auto-trade (or 0-star pilot to use any formation other than "line abreast"). Now, with 3.0, EgoSoft finally fixed this and it is a combination of skills, that determines capabilities, so they are moving in the right direction.

With "X: Rebirth" skillset EgoSoft could make combat pilots dependent on "combat" (absent in X4), "piloting" and "morale" while traders could use "piloting" ("navigation" in X:R terms), "management" and "morale". This way we could still make a half-decent trader out of ex-station manager without sending him/her out to fight Xenon (and most probably die in the process given her/his 0 stars in "piloting").

[tomchk]

Come to think of it…
I kinda miss old (X: Rebirth) skillset. I think the decision to simplify skills was a mistake. Now there is no difference between combat ace and humble merchant: both require only one skill (piloting) plus "morale".

My concern with making crew any more complex is that I think it would bloat saves even more and extend save/load times, which are already too long. I'm actually avoiding full crews right now in the hopes my game will perform better. If anyone has any data or input on the effect of crew on this, I'd love to know! It's just easy to have many thousands of crew, and the game tracks so much about them.

[Alm888]

My concern with making crew any more complex is that I think it would bloat saves even more and extend save/load times, which are already too long. I'm actually avoiding full crews right now in the hopes my game will perform better. If anyone has any data or input on the effect of crew on this, I'd love to know! It's just easy to have many thousands of crew, and the game tracks so much about them.

Well, EgoSoft can always ditch "boarding" (useless stat no one except player really uses and even players won't probably miss it) by replacing it for "combat".

[pref]

I'm actually avoiding full crews right now in the hopes my game will perform better.

Not necessary, NPCs won't affect performance much apart from when they are rendered on screen.
Things that do matter a lot are things like pathing, turret aim, collision detection and such. In combat or dense areas with many ships or stations where performance tends to drop NPCs are just a stat more or less.

Well, EgoSoft can always ditch "boarding" (useless stat no one except player really uses and even players won't probably miss it) by replacing it for "combat".

Boarding is the only skill that is executed okay, works, and has obvious and balanced benefits. I'd rather ditch all but this skill tbh

[Cormyr]

Do pilots even level up without seminars? My auto miner and (manual) trader didn't get 1/3 of a star after several hours now. The ship crew on the other hand has gained several stars by now.

[tomchk]

I'm actually avoiding full crews right now in the hopes my game will perform better.

Not necessary, NPCs won't affect performance much apart from when they are rendered on screen.
Things that do matter a lot are things like pathing, turret aim, collision detection and such. In combat or dense areas with many ships or stations where performance tends to drop NPCs are just a stat more or less.

To clarify, I meant perform better in terms of save/load times. I'd be interested if anyone can quantify the impact of lots of crew on those.

[pref]

in terms of save/load times

An NPC costs like 250 bytes or less depending on skills they have.

[Split-knot]

So I went to check my pilots, and all of them are nearing 3 stars in management, I honestly think that they might be bugged in some way, so I'll explain what I've done with them:

First is this Callisto pilot, I have him dealing spacefuel, buying it at that argon station in FRF space and selling it to that FRF defence station in the same sector. At first I was manually doing all the trades, but now I gave him a distribute wares order with only spacefuel as the ware.
https://imgur.com/T7bsmKp

Then there's this Boa, I've only been ordering manual trades with this ship.
https://imgur.com/enFoQlR

Now this Alligator I set him to sector mine in FRF sectors, then moved him over to ZYA once I got the rep to dock at their stations.
https://imgur.com/xoYtN30

As you can see, none of them have gained piloting skill at all past those two first stars I used seminars to get. In my previous 3.0 beta save, none of my pilots ever gained management stars, only station managers did. These are all Split pilots, so maybe their wires got flipped and learn management instead of piloting?

[pref]

In my previous 3.0 beta save, none of my pilots ever gained management stars, only station managers did.

I used autominers to train managers in 1.x, that's the quickest way to get managers afaik.
Never got a skill increase with manual trading or distribute wares so no clue about those, but i wouldn't be surprised if those affected manager skill instead of piloting as well.

[tomchk]

Interesting... thanks for the input on crew, pref. Do you think skill increases are intentionally going to management instead of piloting?

[pref]

Must be intentional, simple thing to change and its this way for a long time.
Never understood why there is no way to train piloting via trading - think mining would be a good option if it wasn't only affecting management.

[Cormyr]

So what is the most effective way to level a trader or miner aside from seminars?

[pref]

Hope i'm wrong, but seems fighting is quickest by far, and only fighting increases the correct skills (piloting+morale)?

Please someone correct me

[Cormyr]

I don't know. Even after 8+ hours of work my autominers didn't get a single additional star in piloting. Not even 1/3 of a star. Instead, the management skill went up to 2 1/2 and stays there. This cannot be intended.

[TonyEvans]

I think what might put people to rest is a Dev putting, in numbers, how skill gains are calculated.

How much XP is needed per level
How much xp is generated by each task? And towards what skill?
For example:

Morale: Gained by -
Destroying an enemy ship in combat, 50xp.
Performing a trade resulting in Profit. 10xp/profit%

Piloting: Gained by -
Exploration - 45xp/hour
Distribute Wares - 10xp/purchase, 15xp/sale
Trade - same as for Morale, maybe 15xp/profit%

Something along those lines, clear and in the open, might allay some doubts that people are having about Egosoft making these changes then being super vague with a "It works guys, trust us" when most everyone is saying it pretty much doesn't.

[chew-ie]

If you are looking for more information behind the design decisions and the general plans of Egosoft I recommend watching this stream at around both 00:35:00 and 00:42:00:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/582495258

Bernd gives a lot of insight there - and tips on how to train your employees.