Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

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cool_lad
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Joined: Tue, 19. Nov 19, 12:54

Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by cool_lad » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:24

Now that SV is out, I think that the balance issues within the game really need to be addressed. These IMO should be something that needs to be addressed as soon as possible in order to bring the entire game to an even level of quality and balance the races before anything new is added.

I think that the balance issues can be summarized as follows:-
  1. M, L and XL ships for the non Split factions seem to be universally worse than their Split counterparts. They may have more shields, but the Split are often more survivable due to their higher hull. As an example, the Split destroyer, despite having lower shields is actually more survivable than Vanguard variants of all other destroyers and on par with Sentinel variants while at the same time having substantially more crew capacity, much better speed and massively larger quantities of firepower.
  2. Vanilla weapons are still unbalanced; for example, beam lasers are still pretty much worthless as weapons.
  3. Cargo space, though an attribute for combat ships, has no actual role in combat while seemingly affecting OOS calculations.
  4. Carriers have no purpose and are outclassed by Auxiliaries. An auxiliary has access to trader subordinate roles, can service a greater quantity and variety of ships. A carrier carries the same (for too small) number of ships, doesn't have access to trader subordinates, and can only service M and S class ships.
  5. Both carriers and auxiliaries have far too little cargo space to effectively service fleets; for example, auxiliaries barely carry enough missile parts to refill a single destroyer.
A few solutions to these issues, at least for the L and XL class ships are:-
  1. Add in more destroyer variants for the non Split races to act as heavy destroyers with 4 main guns and much heavier hull and shields, in line with the trend of keeping the number of main guns the same across a single ship class (for example, all Frigates have 2 main guns), with standard/light destroyers have 2 rather than 4 main batteries. A light destroyer for the Split may also be added with less hull and 2 guns as a counterpart to the existing destroyers, having 2 guns instead of 4 and commensurately lower hull.
  2. Increase the hull, crew capacity and shields (for example, by increasing the amount of shield strength provided by each generator) of destroyers so that they exceed those on their Split counterparts substantially. The Vanguard variants especially are presently completely outclassed by the Split Rattlesnake. The utility of Vanguard variants of ships was already questionable, but the addition of the Split just emphasizes this; for Vanguards especially, we could do with some extra drone carrying capacity, more manoeuverability and more crew carrying capacity.
  3. Non Split Carriers need to be improved every single way; they need more ship storage. more ware storage, access to the trader role and a massive increase to firepower. Right now, the Split carrier is the only one worth getting and it outclasses it's counterparts in every single way. The Split carrier should be taken as a benchmark of how carriers should be, and the other carriers should be reworked accordingly.

csaba
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by csaba » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:32

Aww come on. I thought people wont notice how tanky split capitals are.

Now we will get the nerfbat.

Everyone was like "aww so little shield bleh". I'm like the guy in the corner "have you actually fought those things?" "Modded Raptor with 700k hull anyone?" "No?" "Keep it a secret then."

leave my hulltanks be :eg:

Cormyr
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by Cormyr » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:37

On the other hand, Split traders and miners have vastly inferior cargo space. Sure, they are faster than their counterparts but with only 1/4 of their cargo space that doesn't really make up for it.

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chew-ie
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by chew-ie » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:44

csaba wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:32
Aww come on. I thought people wont notice how tanky split capitals are.

Now we will get the nerfbat.

Everyone was like "aww so little shield bleh". I'm like the guy in the corner "have you actually fought those things?" "Modded Raptor with 700k hull anyone?" "No?" "Keep it a secret then."

leave my hulltanks be :eg:
Now why on earth did you have to speak that out loud? I better backup this version of the game to preserve the mighty Split! :mrgreen: :P

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Bzar
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by Bzar » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:50

Cormyr wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:37
On the other hand, Split traders and miners have vastly inferior cargo space. Sure, they are faster than their counterparts but with only 1/4 of their cargo space that doesn't really make up for it.
I feel like this is an oversight though. At some point the miner's got their capacity buffed but I can't remember about traders. I assume they did.

Cormyr
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by Cormyr » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:53

Bzar wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:50
Cormyr wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:37
On the other hand, Split traders and miners have vastly inferior cargo space. Sure, they are faster than their counterparts but with only 1/4 of their cargo space that doesn't really make up for it.
I feel like this is an oversight though. At some point the miner's got their capacity buffed but I can't remember about traders. I assume they did.
I hope so. Right now, and compared to the other available ships, they're pretty useless in my book.

brekehan
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by brekehan » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:06

Umm, isn't it historically accurate to say that any content in any DLC for any game is going to be slightly better than the vanilla alternative?
I mean, they want to sell DLC after all.
To understand recursion you must first understand recursion.

Shehriazad
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by Shehriazad » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:14

Cormyr wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:37
On the other hand, Split traders and miners have vastly inferior cargo space. Sure, they are faster than their counterparts but with only 1/4 of their cargo space that doesn't really make up for it.

You might want to actually try them. (All my statement concern the M class)

Split Miners can fly up to 3-5 times faster(I have one with 1500m/s standard speed and like 7k travel) in any travel mode...this makes up for the 30-60% lower capacity.

They also fill up WAY faster because they have two front mounts AND two turrets.

They fill it in just seconds. I see them outperform my Reladi miners FAST.


They are also the most fun way at a player controlled miner as you could weaponize them to the point where they can actually compete Vs fighters.


Traders are also 50-60% faster but have an AVG of 25-35% less cargo space.

L traders are bad on the Split side, I agree....but they have scary firepower and make for WONDERFUL boarding ships.
Last edited by Shehriazad on Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

Cormyr
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by Cormyr » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:19

Shehriazad wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:14
Cormyr wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:37
On the other hand, Split traders and miners have vastly inferior cargo space. Sure, they are faster than their counterparts but with only 1/4 of their cargo space that doesn't really make up for it.

You might want to actually try them.

Split Miners can fly up to 3-5 times faster(I have one with 1500m/s standard speed and like 7k travel) in any travel mode...this makes up for the 30-60% lower capacity.

They also fill up WAY faster because they have two front mounts AND two turrets.

They fill it in just seconds. I see them outperform my Reladi miners FAST.


They are also the most fun way at a player controlled miner as you could weaponize them to the point where they can actually compete Vs fighters.
Alright, didn't think about that. Did you try the L traders (Buffalo) as well?

Shehriazad
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Re: Balance issues with ships in 3.0+Split Vendetta

Post by Shehriazad » Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:24

Cormyr wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:19
Shehriazad wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 20:14
Cormyr wrote:
Sat, 4. Apr 20, 19:37
On the other hand, Split traders and miners have vastly inferior cargo space. Sure, they are faster than their counterparts but with only 1/4 of their cargo space that doesn't really make up for it.

You might want to actually try them.

Split Miners can fly up to 3-5 times faster(I have one with 1500m/s standard speed and like 7k travel) in any travel mode...this makes up for the 30-60% lower capacity.

They also fill up WAY faster because they have two front mounts AND two turrets.

They fill it in just seconds. I see them outperform my Reladi miners FAST.


They are also the most fun way at a player controlled miner as you could weaponize them to the point where they can actually compete Vs fighters.
Alright, didn't think about that. Did you try the L traders (Buffalo) as well?
I was just editing my post but yes on L I agree. But the Buffalo is a great boarding vessel with surprising firepower as their broadside is able to target enemy ships with all 9 turrets of which one is L sized.

Tldr: M class are amazing and can keep up with all the others for ongoing operations. L class are niche but can't compete in raw money made per hour in terms of trading/mining.

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