Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

[raUlo]

Just wanted to share a few thoughts and see if anyone gets what I'm about to say here. Long story short: I've been hit by some nostalgia and decided to do a quick run through an old X:Rebirth save. I noticed a few things compared to X4:

1. The system backgrounds look amazing to me, actually even better than in X4. The nebulae are much more detailed, so detailed that in fact you could sit around and watch them all day. Same goes for planets, they seem a bit more like a drawing but are much more eye candy. It would be cool if sometime in the future at least some of the systems of X4 would get a bit of an overhaul as they seem a bit dull in comparison.
2. The superhighways take a lot longer to be traversed and they take you through different areas in a system. Not only it looks and feels cool, but it also gives a better sense of scale, as you travel through a huge area of space located in a certain solar system. By comparison, the superhighways in X4 are mostly in a straight line and don't seem to move you around as much as in X:Rebirth.
3. The on-station gameplay feels much more alive than in X4, since there seem to be more NPCs sitting around and it actually makes sense to interact with them.

And the main thing I wanna talk about is:
4. X:Rebirth is among the weirdest games I've ever played, even by X series standards. It's literally packed with weird stuff such as the holographic dancers, the sneaking through vents on stations to collect various items, the guards sitting around on stations even while you go and hack a defence panel, the engaging in small talk with the NPCs, the highway system, and the list could go on and on. Compared actually to any other X game, X4 feels very "normal".

Whenever I think of any of the X games, or more precisely the atmosphere and general feel of any of them, I'm remembering the strange stuff: the lack of a galaxy map in X:Btf (hope I don't get things wrong here, haven't played it too much tbh), Betty's voice in X2 and X3, the voice acting, the cutscenes, and the list could go on (I even like to play X3:R's storyline just for the voice acting and cutscenes). The question is, what would people remember in the future when thinking of X4?

I'm not complaining here, I'm not saying X4 is bad or anything. In fact, I think it's a great game and well on its way to become the best in the series (haters gonna hate), and I think we haven't seen half of what it's capable of. I realize that in the end X4 is a product and it's what Egosoft does for a living so success is dictated by the number of people actually buying and playing the game, therefore it must be aimed at satisfying as many people as possible. I'm also aware that it's 2020 and technology is more advanced and therefore game standards are much higher. But somehow I feel that it lacks the typical pack of unusual stuff we're used to from the previous games. Weirdness is cool and it makes the game stand out from others in this genre, it's the strange things that will stick in everyone's mind

[Matthew94]

While Rebirth's twisty highways might have more soul, I don't give a shit about soul when I've gotta traverse the galaxy to do some minor errand. I much prefer the ones in X4 for their practicality.
Yes, Rebirth does have a really unique aesthetic but I feel that the cost was too great. The leap forward in terms of gameplay is so utterly massive that I don't think I could go back to Rebirth except to play the plot. Of course having both would be great but if I had to choose between gameplay and aesthetics, gameplay wins every time.

Finally, I would kill for more low-orbit sectors like Radiant Heaven. That place floored me when I found it at the end of Rebirth. I don't think there's a better looking environment anywhere else in the X series.

[Varyah]

2. The superhighways take a lot longer to be traversed and they take you through different areas in a system. Not only it looks and feels cool, but it also gives a better sense of scale, as you travel through a huge area of space located in a certain solar system. By comparison, the superhighways in X4 are mostly in a straight line and don't seem to move you around as much as in X:Rebirth.
3. The on-station gameplay feels much more alive than in X4, since there seem to be more NPCs sitting around and it actually makes sense to interact with them.

What's so interesting about flying on autopilot through a blueish tube with some unidentifiable orange energy(?) thingies when I want to fly a spaceship? I think needlessly long generic animations that lock out player interaction make games usually less engaging.

Same goes for your next point, and I think the exact opposite is the case: in X4 more NPCs are running around, looking busy and X:R was rather static, more generic. But in both cases you have a generic walking simulator with generic NPC interaction - virtually all NPCs have the exact same interaction options. There is nothing engaging about them. The story plot characters are because unique dialogue and unique interaction options. This would be different if the walking simulator had some actual meaningful gameplay attached.

The worst thing in that regard are the rank-up monologues for all the factions: they're all basically the same, very generic, and you're forced to listen to them to the end. It's quite realistic, but this is a game and not a business meeting.

Of course in a game with this scale having unique NPCs is not possible but unavoidable generic NPC interaction should be minimized. Well, at least I'd like to play and interact with the game how I want (even if it's just an illusion of freedom) and not listen to the same line for the 100th time.

[leoriq]

X4 is lacking only in two areas: visual design and lore density. The reason? X Rebirth was such a financial disaster Egosoft had to cut corners.
Despite that, X4 is still a mile better than X Rebirth. Fun and interesting to play.
Good games will be played for years, weird games will be remembered as epic fails.

No more weird games please.

[Jeraal]

I don't like the very idea of highways, so for me, less is more.

I don't care for the walking around unless there is a LOT more to do. But, development of walking around stuff could take away from flying around stuff. So, for me, the walking could be dropped entirely.

I played very little of x-rebi... sorry, threw up in my mouth a little, because it was so different.

[Socratatus]

A game having `soul` will last the test of time. Cookie cutter mainstream games are quickly forgotten.

[Nort The Fragrent]

X4 is to be honest rather good, if you ignore the background. Or should I say Backspace.

So to wet ones appetite, the new Backspaces are soon to replace the existing ones.

Yes, that is a big fat roomer, one that may just get the artists sorting out this unfortunate negative.


Regarding a normal game! Most games today are exceeding dull, clones of clones designed by clones for clones. X4 is certainly not normal, es have just about got it right.

[gorgofdoom]

Tbf the highways in Rebirth took too long. I would rather ride a capship that could jump me to the other side if the universe in less than 2 minutes versus the 10 minute autopilot trip.

[raUlo]

I never said X:R is a better game than X4. I also don't think we should have more X:R features in X4 (with the exception of the superhighways improvements, which I believe could be done without impacting anything too much), but instead new stuff that make the game unique and add to its soul. X:R IMO was trashed also because the base game wasn't finished and was broken. There are lots of things you can do in X4 but can't do in X:R. And I think the fact that X4 lacks soul is because they spent much more time to make a game that works well and has a good foundation. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but my hopes are that the "soul" part is not left behind.

And yes, I do think the superhighways are that cool. Simply because they don't make much sense. Games aren't supposed to be perfectly realistic, because then there's no room for imagination and they lose their charm. Making the blue highways more twisted and setting the start and end points much further away would make things more interesting. And the travel speeds could be increased so that the time needed to traverse them doesn't change. This way you don't impact practicality. But then weirdos like me who actually like that, can slow down and look around to just stare at the surroundings.

I admire ES for being able to improve X:R so much from a practical and functional point of view. Given the feedback at launch, I was also probably a bit lucky, but I couldn't believe how much more polished and stable X4 was compared to X:R. It no longer felt like an experiment, but like a true game. But to me, the soul is equally important as the gameplay. The Split DLC and 3.0 already adds to the soul with the plot missions, and I think they already mentioned that they are taking into consideration some improvements regarding superhighways. All I'm hoping is that they continue to work on this path and improve both on the functional and the artistic side of the game.

[KiwiNZ]

While there are a lot of aspects I also really loved about X-R and the immersion in the universe (graphically) is just one of them.

However, X4 is pretty much what many of us wanted, the best of X3 with some of the candy of X-R thrown in for good measure and then some.

If I look at the comments regarding lore, since the start of this forum, there has been some spectacular fan fiction in the creative forum. So I don't see how this very active community cannot actually come together to build a lore that ES could then look into working out missions or a plot for. I believe we as a community have a huge chance here to turn this into the game that not only we like but everybody and their grandma on the planet.

[chip56]

I think right now X4 is pretty generic in some points which make it feel without "soul". The basis is good and its clearly improving so X4 is on a good way. probably exactly because we see the potential we want more of it

Some examples what i mean about the generic parts and some minor things that would already make em feel a bit more alive:
The generic 10 / 20 rep promotions. All factions pretty much say the same thing. Bla bla, thank you, great rewards, other unnamed sub factions are interested, dont piss us off or you lose the rewards, bla bla. All those rewards the same things for each faction. In previous X games you could for example gain a teladi police license far earlier in rep than for others. Just changing those thresholds for each faction would already feel a bit more different. It would also be interesting if each of those would really give something unique: For example for teladi you could pay a big fee to become a real share holder but gain a permanent discount on all their factions (on top of what the default is). Paranid/split could for example allow you access to certain core sector installations only after you reach sufficent reputation to show their higher level of xenophobie. Or split could allow you to participate legally in slave trading.

All those: "thank you, here is a little something as thanks".
remember those "thank you for your timely assist in saving much profits. your reward: 1000 credit" messages for teladi?
or those when you kill enough pirates: "your reward: pirates will hunt you down like vermin". Thats the point when you know "yeap, i succesfully ticked em off."

Remember the blackboards in stations with news and missions? I would also love those to come back. Every docking module should have one so that you can visit that to get war news, news about sighted xenon, some missions not linked to specific stations, some offers for trade deals...

If those would be just a bit more distinguished it would help feeling like they are really different. Those are not huge things and i am sure that we will get some of those to add soul one day. Of course i would love to see them sooner rather than latter

[Clownmug]

I liked how X:R had star systems that actually felt worthwhile to explore. It seems like Egosoft regressed in map design with X4 since most systems are just big empty rooms with a different background. The few systems that are divided into sectors are the only ones that seem interesting to me.

For example, there are the Xenon systems like Tharka's Cascade, Faulty Logic and Atiya's Fortune where the inner sectors feel like deep hostile territory. The Hewa's Twin systems that are connected in a way they make a certain station feel like something well hidden. And Grand Exchange with its 3 sectors is basically like the crossroads for civilized space.

[Berhg]

Just wanted to share a few thoughts and see if anyone gets what I'm about to say here. Long story short: I've been hit by some nostalgia and decided to do a quick run through an old X:Rebirth save. I noticed a few things compared to X4:

1. The system backgrounds look amazing to me, actually even better than in X4. The nebulae are much more detailed, so detailed that in fact you could sit around and watch them all day. Same goes for planets, they seem a bit more like a drawing but are much more eye candy. It would be cool if sometime in the future at least some of the systems of X4 would get a bit of an overhaul as they seem a bit dull in comparison.
2. The superhighways take a lot longer to be traversed and they take you through different areas in a system. Not only it looks and feels cool, but it also gives a better sense of scale, as you travel through a huge area of space located in a certain solar system. By comparison, the superhighways in X4 are mostly in a straight line and don't seem to move you around as much as in X:Rebirth.
3. The on-station gameplay feels much more alive than in X4, since there seem to be more NPCs sitting around and it actually makes sense to interact with them.
4. X:Rebirth is among the weirdest games I've ever played, even by X series standards. It's literally packed with weird stuff such as the holographic dancers, the sneaking through vents on stations to collect various items, the guards sitting around on stations even while you go and hack a defence panel, the engaging in small talk with the NPCs, the highway system, and the list could go on and on. Compared actually to any other X game, X4 feels very "normal".

I miss these things about X:Rebirth as well. (Except the vent shaft crawling. Don't miss that!) There were some awesome fun things in X:Rebirth! I yet prefer X4's game mechanics.

[Tomonor]

You know, I was thinking a lot about this. I came to the conclusion that Superhighways, as a concept is outdated. Yes, it's great that a Star System has more Sectors but again, what's the point? Regardless if you travel by gate/accelerator/superhighway, you still end up in a box that's pretty much the same.

This is going to sound far-fetched, but the ideal solution to this is to open up star systems and interplanetary flight. Don't let a sector be determined by a magical space box. Let's go all in. Let there be variety. Let there be a reason to deploy a sector behind a gas giant or beyond the clouds of Atreus. Let there be a reason to rather mine in the Aguilar Asteroid Belt instead of Ore Belt. Let there be a reason to build space-faring megacomplexes instead of settling on a planet. Let there be a drive behind the structure of our beloved X-Universe.

This is what I wish for X5 to be.

[ezra-r]

rebirth to me was a pile of prototype features. The highways although a bit useful were not correctly laid up, they were just one way, you didn't have travel mode, so go from point 4 to point 3 would require go to 5 , 6 ,1 ,2 first..so it got old pretty quickly.

Another thing in Rebirth, those big Argon freighters could take literally 20-30 minutes to dock. Drones would often get lost or do erratic flying incapable of coming back. Builing ships getting stuck or legs opened...

And X4 backgrounds... True sight, Ziarth dominion and a few others are simply awesome to look at. Have you been to Rhy's defiance? I just took it from the Xenon to stay there, seeing at my wharf traders do their thing while observing the meteros flying through...

AI path traveling in big ships bouncing with asteroids and get damage.. remember that in Rebirth? I remember crying out loud in forums to get rid of bouncing damage becuase we could not be punished for bad AI calculations.

ohh.. and remember all space sprayed with locked containers? A nice testing prototype for the locked containers we find here and there, I think the placement and gameplay around them could be improved, but it makes now abit more sense to find one once in a while.

Rebirth was entertaining for a while.. but most things in it were prototypes. One of the things I liked the most were the menus to give orthers that the almighty forum whining made Egosoft get rid of it almost entirely for X4, actual map is awesome, no doubt, but I still miss the speed I could get in certain things with menus, but nothing is perfect, so I pick the map in X4 quite happily.

Yes nostalgia... I like it but, don't want to re-live it

[ElsonG]

Honestly, the problem isn't low orbit areas, the biggest problem is how to put all this in just one single game, i can't see why the game couldn't improve if Egosoft guys implement this in their game, but is some sense it's just scenary, theres no big deal in add a few elements in the game that wasn't there before, but don't change the gameplay at all.
But forget about me, i'm new in X-series, but im my humble opinion, what i do think that Egosoft could do better, is add some key elements of narrative, some better...STORY (or at least a well told story)...
For exemple, add some companions (not common NPCs) to go along with the player, you know, kinda like Mass Effect system doesn't need to be perfect like that, but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

Honestly, the problem isn't low orbit areas, the biggest problem is how to put all this in just one single game, i can't see why the game couldn't improve if Egosoft guys implement this in their game, but is some sense it's just scenary, theres no big deal in add a few elements in the game that wasn't there before, but don't change the gameplay at all.
But forget about me, i'm new in X-series, but im my humble opinion, what i do think that Egosoft could do better, is add some key elements of narrative, some better...STORY (or at least a well told story)...
For exemple, add some companions (not common NPCs) to go along with the player, you know, kinda like Mass Effect system doesn't need to be perfect like that, but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!

I like the idea of having like a "council" after you get to the "empire" level in the game (late game). You don't even need a flagship, you can use the PHQ. This guys can be "found" by specific plot chains, and will give you more missions specific to some areas (e.g. one of them could give you "build station" missions in specific areas where there's some product gap, another "kill missions" against a particular pirate plundering a trade route, ...).

[leoriq]

but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!

Like Yiasha and her Skunk. It went so well, Egisoft sold 30 millions copies of X Rebirth. And that's only on the first day.

And we sure need that flaghip to walk around, because these days no game can be called a proper RPG if it has no hub. And if one says that X Series is not an RPG - well it should be, because reasons!
After all, Egosoft is renowned for it long history of successful RPG games. And now, when third-grade studios like Blizzard fail to deliver a proper story in their RPG shooters, no doubt due to spending mere hundres of millions, it's time for Egosoft to put the billions of profit it reaped from grand success of X Rebirth into the making X Rebirth Two!

...
Hooray?

[BrasatoAlBarolo]

but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!

Like Yiasha and her Skunk. It went so well, Egisoft sold 30 millions copies of X Rebirth. And that's only on the first day.

And we sure need that flaghip to walk around, because these days no game can be called a proper RPG if it has no hub. And if one says that X Series is not an RPG - well it should be, because reasons!
After all, Egosoft is renowned for it long history of successful RPG games. And now, when third-grade studios like Blizzard fail to deliver a proper story in their RPG shooters, no doubt due to spending mere hundres of millions, it's time for Egosoft to put the billions of profit it reaped from grand success of X Rebirth into the making X Rebirth Two!

...
Hooray?

The one thing a proper, modern RPG must not miss is fishing. That's why next dlc is going to be about Borons.

[leoriq]

Pretty sure D. B. is fishing B.Ta (no spoilers) when we aren't watching.