Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

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ElsonG
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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by ElsonG » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 03:32

Honestly, the problem isn't low orbit areas, the biggest problem is how to put all this in just one single game, i can't see why the game couldn't improve if Egosoft guys implement this in their game, but is some sense it's just scenary, theres no big deal in add a few elements in the game that wasn't there before, but don't change the gameplay at all.
But forget about me, i'm new in X-series, but im my humble opinion, what i do think that Egosoft could do better, is add some key elements of narrative, some better...STORY (or at least a well told story)...
For exemple, add some companions (not common NPCs) to go along with the player, you know, kinda like Mass Effect system doesn't need to be perfect like that, but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 09:26

ElsonG wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 03:32
Honestly, the problem isn't low orbit areas, the biggest problem is how to put all this in just one single game, i can't see why the game couldn't improve if Egosoft guys implement this in their game, but is some sense it's just scenary, theres no big deal in add a few elements in the game that wasn't there before, but don't change the gameplay at all.
But forget about me, i'm new in X-series, but im my humble opinion, what i do think that Egosoft could do better, is add some key elements of narrative, some better...STORY (or at least a well told story)...
For exemple, add some companions (not common NPCs) to go along with the player, you know, kinda like Mass Effect system doesn't need to be perfect like that, but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!
I like the idea of having like a "council" after you get to the "empire" level in the game (late game). You don't even need a flagship, you can use the PHQ. This guys can be "found" by specific plot chains, and will give you more missions specific to some areas (e.g. one of them could give you "build station" missions in specific areas where there's some product gap, another "kill missions" against a particular pirate plundering a trade route, ...).

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by leoriq » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 09:50

ElsonG wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 03:32
but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!
Like Yiasha and her Skunk. It went so well, Egisoft sold 30 millions copies of X Rebirth. And that's only on the first day.

And we sure need that flaghip to walk around, because these days no game can be called a proper RPG if it has no hub. And if one says that X Series is not an RPG - well it should be, because reasons!
After all, Egosoft is renowned for it long history of successful RPG games. And now, when third-grade studios like Blizzard fail to deliver a proper story in their RPG shooters, no doubt due to spending mere hundres of millions, it's time for Egosoft to put the billions of profit it reaped from grand success of X Rebirth into the making X Rebirth Two!

...
Hooray?
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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by BrasatoAlBarolo » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 10:21

leoriq wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 09:50
ElsonG wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 03:32
but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!
Like Yiasha and her Skunk. It went so well, Egisoft sold 30 millions copies of X Rebirth. And that's only on the first day.

And we sure need that flaghip to walk around, because these days no game can be called a proper RPG if it has no hub. And if one says that X Series is not an RPG - well it should be, because reasons!
After all, Egosoft is renowned for it long history of successful RPG games. And now, when third-grade studios like Blizzard fail to deliver a proper story in their RPG shooters, no doubt due to spending mere hundres of millions, it's time for Egosoft to put the billions of profit it reaped from grand success of X Rebirth into the making X Rebirth Two!

...
Hooray?
The one thing a proper, modern RPG must not miss is fishing. That's why next dlc is going to be about Borons.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by leoriq » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 10:44

Pretty sure D. B. is fishing B.Ta (no spoilers) when we aren't watching.
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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by SumUser » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 14:39

At its core X4 is more of a management driven, combat/economic simulator than anything else. I'm not sure how much "cinema" really fits in the "big picture" design of a game like X4. To me, putting too much development into "fluff" is wasted opportunity to better realize the core of X4. I would emphasize a greater level of horizontal expanding of the game rather then a vertical addition.

The economy is based on a fun concept (everything is build by player/npcs) BUT there isn't enough nuance and variation. Why is the food and energy market not one of the main focus of the economic model? If I build a station in a far off sector, keeping my station running with food/medical supplies/red light district goods should be tied into keeping a station running and with inhabitants.

This one example also opens up so many interlacing possibility with existing systems... Missions to supply npc stations where failure to succeed = population decline with a real hit to production (perhaps failure was intentional muhaha). Maybe intro a new cargo type = livestock/passenger. Now another mission opens up: supply a station with people to bring its production back. How cool would a "re-populate a derelict station" be?!


The tech tree is also so under developed considering how much possibility exists to both give players long term goals AND ability to specialize and modify module production values, weapon damage, storage capacity bonuses, etc etc.

However, the goal should always be to make the simulator more immersive with more ways to interact, manipulate, and most of all create new and unique player-made stories.

Lots of potential with more storylines that change faction power/distribution like the ones released with 3.0 for the Split and Paranid.


I enjoyed re-birth but it was too cinematic heavy with not enough emphasis on the actual simulation. X4 is VERY heavy on the simulation but sometimes overly vague and without enough "girth" to existing systems and concepts.


Nonetheless, X4 is amazing and my humble critique is only the result of nearly 700hrs invested in, what is and was, a pretty positive and fun experience.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by sd_jasper » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 15:40

repatomonor wrote:
Thu, 4. Jun 20, 23:38
You know, I was thinking a lot about this. I came to the conclusion that Superhighways, as a concept is outdated. Yes, it's great that a Star System has more Sectors but again, what's the point? Regardless if you travel by gate/accelerator/superhighway, you still end up in a box that's pretty much the same.

This is going to sound far-fetched, but the ideal solution to this is to open up star systems and interplanetary flight. Don't let a sector be determined by a magical space box. Let's go all in. Let there be variety. Let there be a reason to deploy a sector behind a gas giant or beyond the clouds of Atreus. Let there be a reason to rather mine in the Aguilar Asteroid Belt instead of Ore Belt. Let there be a reason to build space-faring megacomplexes instead of settling on a planet. Let there be a drive behind the structure of our beloved X-Universe.

This is what I wish for X5 to be.
But isn't that what Super Highways (or Accelerators) allow? Without them, then you have to totally reinvinte how to travel vast distances. For example, the distance between the Earth-Moon Lagrange points 1 and 2 is aprox 120,000 km. Assuming you have a ship with a travel mode speed at 5 km/s (5000 m/s), then we're talking a full day to go from these points, and that isn't even accounting for the fact that the Moon is between them, so you'd have to fly around it. And these are "close" points within one planetary orbital system.

With a super highway, you could travel this distance, and "curve" around the moon. And watch the view of the moon change as you fly from the near to far (dark) side. IMO that's pretty cool (if implemented that way).

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by Matthew94 » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:10

SumUser wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 14:39
At its core X4 is more of a management driven, combat/economic simulator than anything else. I'm not sure how much "cinema" really fits in the "big picture" design of a game like X4. To me, putting too much development into "fluff" is wasted opportunity to better realize the core of X4. I would emphasize a greater level of horizontal expanding of the game rather then a vertical addition.

The economy is based on a fun concept (everything is build by player/npcs) BUT there isn't enough nuance and variation. Why is the food and energy market not one of the main focus of the economic model? If I build a station in a far off sector, keeping my station running with food/medical supplies/red light district goods should be tied into keeping a station running and with inhabitants.

This one example also opens up so many interlacing possibility with existing systems... Missions to supply npc stations where failure to succeed = population decline with a real hit to production (perhaps failure was intentional muhaha). Maybe intro a new cargo type = livestock/passenger. Now another mission opens up: supply a station with people to bring its production back. How cool would a "re-populate a derelict station" be?!
Agreed. I think combat is passable for the moment but we need much more control of our empires and more depth in the simulation.

I get that Egosoft want to sell a lot of copies and don't want X4 to be MS Excel in space but the economy has always been one of the biggest selling points of the game. Adding more sinks like food and energy, as you said, will make the economy less dependent on war. Maybe they don't like touching the economy much because it's so hard to balance?
sd_jasper wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 15:40
With a super highway, you could travel this distance, and "curve" around the moon. And watch the view of the moon change as you fly from the near to far (dark) side. IMO that's pretty cool (if implemented that way).

And that's just how it worked in Rebirth too. Rebirth got a lot of things wrong but its aesthetics were top-tier.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by spookywatcher » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:13

Can maybe we get some CPU thread optimization instead of the mess we got now? Then add the "ambiance" improvements? I whole heartedly agree X-rebirth was gorgeous. X4 feels like a step back. Miss the X3 voice overs and cutscenes. X4 is almost there. So I completely agree, but...

One cpu thread getting clubbed like a baby seal at 100% and 7 others sitting around have a cocktail and cigar.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by Matthew94 » Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:19

spookywatcher wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 16:13
Can maybe we get some CPU thread optimization instead of the mess we got now? Then add the "ambiance" improvements? I whole heartedly agree X-rebirth was gorgeous. X4 feels like a step back. Miss the X3 voice overs and cutscenes. X4 is almost there. So I completely agree, but...

One cpu thread getting clubbed like a baby seal at 100% and 7 others sitting around have a cocktail and cigar.
I still don't understand why during Rebirth's development, when they made a totally new engine and economic simulation, that they still went for a design that did nearly everything on one core.
It had been known for a long time that software was heading towards multithreading rather than relying on single-core performance.
I know multithreading is supposed to be hard but it just feels like there had to have been a better solution.

The simulation tools I use at work can saturate pretty much every core you have. They're completely different problem spaces I admit (physics vs a video game) but the point is more to highlight that multithreading is being used in complex simulation software.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by JMCorp » Fri, 12. Jun 20, 05:29

I don't have a lot to add except this: X:Rebirth made me quit playing egosoft games for a couple years. I was so disappointed in that game. it was an unmitigated pile of trash. That being said; my son, who i purchased a copy for at the same time, loved it. so :gruebel:

I only came back because all the steam reviews said how much more like x3 it was. now i'm almost 1000 hours in since the split expansion came out. X4 is so much more the game i want to play than X:Rubbish was.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by deadmoomin » Sun, 14. Jun 20, 12:20

X3:Albion is still my favourite - it just had the magic.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by Slashman » Sun, 14. Jun 20, 16:16

deadmoomin wrote:
Sun, 14. Jun 20, 12:20
X3:Albion is still my favourite - it just had the magic.
So I guess you're playing that full time instead of this?
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by werewolves? » Mon, 15. Jun 20, 23:43

X:Rebirth with X4 features like fly any ship and the galaxy map would be a better game.

The only problem with Rebirth was that it lacked technical features. From a design perspective they created actual "space" that made sense, not a series of connected rooms.

I think Egosoft threw the baby out with the bath water, but maybe they had to because there was literally irrational hate for everything Rebirth related.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by leoriq » Wed, 17. Jun 20, 22:24

werewolves? wrote:
Mon, 15. Jun 20, 23:43
The only problem with Rebirth was that it lacked technical features. From a design perspective they created actual "space" that made sense, not a series of connected rooms.
I have to disagree. Compared to Elite Dangerous, X Rebirth was not an inch closer to actual space than other X games.

But that's not a bad thing. Actual space is vast and empty, there is literally nothing to do but sit in your chair and wait until you arrive somewhere. Boring. X4 "rooms" are much more interesting to play, because travel downtime is much smaller.
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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by ElsonG » Fri, 19. Jun 20, 00:27

BrasatoAlBarolo wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 10:21
leoriq wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 09:50
ElsonG wrote:
Thu, 11. Jun 20, 03:32
but add some interesting character with cool backgrounds, maybe some side missions for them, some special ships exclusive of them...
Make at least ONE flagship where this characters will meet (like the Normandy), keep all other elements, but add MORE NARRATIVE! This is kind of a huge problem with this space games today, the story is usually crap, or poorly told, and to be honest, X4 has all the potential to be a perfect RPG space shooter as well a RTS FPS game.
X4 is almost perfect... almost...MAKE THIS UNIVERSE TRULY ALIVE! Egosoft!
Sorry about my mispelings and all that stuff, english is not my native language (wich is portuguese...) Greatings from Brazil!
Like Yiasha and her Skunk. It went so well, Egisoft sold 30 millions copies of X Rebirth. And that's only on the first day.

And we sure need that flaghip to walk around, because these days no game can be called a proper RPG if it has no hub. And if one says that X Series is not an RPG - well it should be, because reasons!
After all, Egosoft is renowned for it long history of successful RPG games. And now, when third-grade studios like Blizzard fail to deliver a proper story in their RPG shooters, no doubt due to spending mere hundres of millions, it's time for Egosoft to put the billions of profit it reaped from grand success of X Rebirth into the making X Rebirth Two!

...
Hooray?
The one thing a proper, modern RPG must not miss is fishing. That's why next dlc is going to be about Borons.
Look i not saying that Egosoft should repeat the same mistakes as previous games, but it seems to me that theres a huge potential being wasted in X4, the game is good, but could be way better...
While playing this game, i get some vibes from games of a completley different genre, for exemple, Fallout 4, but at same time, the game only throws at me it's mechanics, not an actual history with interesting characters or quests, it's lacking just some few lines, some companion script and some good campaign for each faction to be a perfect balance between RTS and RPG.
The mechanics for an RPG style game are already there, but aren't being used.
You don't need to change to much the mechanics, a buddy system for instance, could only be a kill switch that if your buddy die, you die, or it could teleport him to a safe location like the HQ... even better, it could simply eject the ship, and you need to rescue him before is oxygen runs out (and they he and you die)!
Add some few dialogue lines, some side quests, and NPC persistence and you have your companion! All that without change too much the mechanics of the game.
Also i must add that, if you have a third person view in a game like this, you really need more RPG elements for your game, if don't do that, then the first person perspective is pointless, better play Stellaris insted.

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by leoriq » Fri, 19. Jun 20, 13:06

ElsonG wrote:
Fri, 19. Jun 20, 00:27
Look i not saying that Egosoft should repeat the same mistakes as previous games, but it seems to me that theres a huge potential being wasted in X4, the game is good, but could be way better...
While playing this game, i get some vibes from games of a completley different genre, for exemple, Fallout 4, but at same time, the game only throws at me it's mechanics, not an actual history with interesting characters or quests, it's lacking just some few lines, some companion script and some good campaign for each faction to be a perfect balance between RTS and RPG.
The mechanics for an RPG style game are already there, but aren't being used.
You don't need to change to much the mechanics, a buddy system for instance, could only be a kill switch that if your buddy die, you die, or it could teleport him to a safe location like the HQ... even better, it could simply eject the ship, and you need to rescue him before is oxygen runs out (and they he and you die)!
Add some few dialogue lines, some side quests, and NPC persistence and you have your companion! All that without change too much the mechanics of the game.
Also i must add that, if you have a third person view in a game like this, you really need more RPG elements for your game, if don't do that, then the first person perspective is pointless, better play Stellaris insted.
A potential of X4 to be not X4, but another game is not a potential. Implementing another genre doesn't mean being better - it means being different. I like X series for what it is.
I don't see how using some specific mechanics from another games for it's own purposes makes X4 not good enough.
X4 uses some RPG mechanics to be a better space sim? That's great.
X4 doesn't use RPG mechanics to be a Fallout 4 in space? That's great, I want X4 to be X, not Fallout in space.

Buddies, side quests, NPC persistence - yes, we all had seen how well this stuff works in X series, hadn't we?
Spoiler: we hadn't. It doesn't work here. X Rebirth wasn't very good. It made X series to have one NPC more than it should have had.
And it definitely wasn't a proper X.

Regarding third person view and Stellaris - there is no person in Stellaris. Like, at all.
And I fail to see how not having more RPG elements while having third person view makes first person perspective pointless. Where is the logic in that?

Not having NPC companions doesn't make X4 to be a Stellaris, it makes X4 to be X.
And X4 excels at being X. I welcome that.
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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by Slashman » Fri, 19. Jun 20, 15:48

leoriq wrote:
Fri, 19. Jun 20, 13:06

A potential of X4 to be not X4, but another game is not a potential. Implementing another genre doesn't mean being better - it means being different. I like X series for what it is.
I don't see how using some specific mechanics from another games for it's own purposes makes X4 not good enough.
X4 uses some RPG mechanics to be a better space sim? That's great.
X4 doesn't use RPG mechanics to be a Fallout 4 in space? That's great, I want X4 to be X, not Fallout in space.

Buddies, side quests, NPC persistence - yes, we all had seen how well this stuff works in X series, hadn't we?
Spoiler: we hadn't. It doesn't work here. X Rebirth wasn't very good. It made X series to have one NPC more than it should have had.
And it definitely wasn't a proper X.

Regarding third person view and Stellaris - there is no person in Stellaris. Like, at all.
And I fail to see how not having more RPG elements while having third person view makes first person perspective pointless. Where is the logic in that?

Not having NPC companions doesn't make X4 to be a Stellaris, it makes X4 to be X.
And X4 excels at being X. I welcome that.
Well said.
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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by ElsonG » Sun, 21. Jun 20, 22:52

What you saw was a system that probably wasn't well implemented...
Like i said, the mechanics for doing this is already in the game, the system has all the tools to do so and do well (ps: i used Falout 4 as an exemple in it's mechanics not actually a story or genre) i'm not saying that Egosoft should get rid of any mechanics in their game in favor of others, but work a bit more on the elements that are already in place.
I don't see why you can't have some companions, with their own side quests and backgrounds, characters that we actually care about insted of blank NPC behavior.
X4 looks like are populated by robots only, it's always the same dialogue lines always the same responses... yes, the game is great, but it lacks some cultural and societal aspects, for exemple HOP faction it is said to be highly religious, but yet the only difference between them and the other paranid to me is the color of their sector, and the fact that they antagonize each other (somenthing that i didn't even see to happens), their dialogue responses, the only diference between Argonians is the alien voice behind.
The game will be something different... yeah, to me it looks all the same, other aspects of the game is that it's really fun flying the ships, build the economy, manage your fleet, this is all great and fun, i get that, but could be so much more with just a few tweks...
But let me give you another exemple, one more close with we are talking about...
Rebel Galaxy Outlaw: a farly recent space combat game, in some aspects is farly similar to X4, you jump from sector to sector, always running after money to buy your ships, you can even aquire your own HQ at some point (in the most wacky way possible), this game lack some features of X4 tough, it doesn't have the RTS aspects, you can only fly one ship, at time, and the HQ is build by some sets of side quests like aquiring a pool table for your bar in the HQ (by the way, this game feature the best 8-ball game simulation that i ever play in game in any game). what shine in RGO, is the fact that the story and RPG elements are very well placed, each faction in game is very distinct from each other, the characters that you meet in the game are very interesting, each with their own goals and backgrounds, each one contributing to the main story in their own way, and some of them you become your companions that you can call in for a fight or just flying around (one at the time tough).
And you know what is even more amazing about this game? It was developed for only 5 devs! Just 5 guys to make a game as massive as X4...
I still preffer X4 tough, because it has the features that are lacking in RGO wich at some point make the game to be too much repetitive, but the one aspect that made me going to the end, was the story and RPG elements.
Again, i'm not saying that X4 should have 8-ball mini-game, i'm not saying that X4 should get rid of the RTS elements, only saying that they could work more on the RPG and the story side of the game.
Done properly, it will become the witcher 3 of space games (i use TW3 as an exemple of a successful game that is praised years after it's realese and is consider to be the best RPG videogame of the last decade).

Are you still afraid of what is different? Improvement require change, change require courage...

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Re: Egosoft, please don't make a "normal" game

Post by Slashman » Mon, 22. Jun 20, 01:04

ElsonG wrote:
Sun, 21. Jun 20, 22:52

Done properly, it will become the witcher 3 of space games (i use TW3 as an exemple of a successful game that is praised years after it's realese and is consider to be the best RPG videogame of the last decade).

Are you still afraid of what is different? Improvement require change, change require courage...
The Witcher 3 had a dev team of approx 250 in-house staff and all told was worked on by 1,500 people worldwide. With a budget of US $81 million. You see the issue here right?

I love the Witcher but that isn't a feat which can be replicated by a small developer. No matter how many good or bad ideas they have for their game.
If you want a different perspective, stand on your head.

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