We need some HW in X4!!

[capitalduty]

Normally I won’t compare this two great games, but now that X4 have potential for amazing fleet battles It could draw inspiration on how homeworld approach capital ship vs capital ship battle.
Please look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcTOj-Hfrd4

You can see that movement during the attack order is fluid and linear if space is not obstructed, capital ships doesn’t maneuver unless is ordered to do so. They engage at maximum effective range and stay there, they don’t change orientation or do evasive maneuvers because it doesn’t make sense as they are big slow ships, move orders are absolute and collision is almost not existent.

Now look at this big capital ships battle :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bgahxgoKXU
You can see that even with that many ships formation is retained and fleet try to fight as a unit, spacing is considered and battle looks fluid and not artificial nonsense. Friendly fire is not as significant as in X4.

Hope is that X4 can reach the epic nature of fleet battles without losing that much fidelity, I bet that with proper AI love X4 could get very similar results. Time will tell!!

[capitalduty]

Normally I won’t compare this two great games, but now that X4 have potential for amazing fleet battles It could draw inspiration on how homeworld approach capital ship vs capital ship battle.
Please look at this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcTOj-Hfrd4

You can see that movement during the attack order is fluid and linear if space is not obstructed, capital ships doesn’t maneuver unless is ordered to do so. They engage at maximum effective range and stay there, they don’t change orientation or do evasive maneuvers because it doesn’t make sense as they are big slow ships, move orders are absolute and collision is almost not existent.

Now look at this big capital ships battle :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bgahxgoKXU
You can see that even with that many ships formation is retained and fleet try to fight as a unit, spacing is considered and battle looks fluid and not artificial nonsense. Friendly fire is not as significant as in X4.

Hope is that X4 can reach the epic nature of fleet battles without losing that much fidelity, I bet that with proper AI love X4 could get very similar results. Time will tell!!

Sorry this should be on main forum!

[BigBANGtheory]

there are definitely lessons to be learnt from Homeworld, we've already seen (thankfully and to Egosoft's credit) a UI shift in that direction for the map. If I understand correctly your point is around fluidity and seamless gameplay with the X4 captains acting more as a fleet and less like grade C novice pilots that can't stay in formation or give way to minor objects when they should have right of way.

I would agree, I think there is a large AI pathfinding and logic topic applicable for L and XL ships that is long overdue for improvement which includes formations a hang up still from X3 days. I think that would be widely recognised and beneficial to the X4 community.

As for the HW analogy you still need z axis command & control (not just view) on the map and bandbox selection on the wish list in order to get space fleet battles working to the potential. Particularly as you have quite specific turret locations on the ships which can be exploited for and against targets.

[Imperial Good]

Are the simulation levels of the game the same? It looks very much like an RTS which would then have RTS level optimizations applied that would render it incapable of personal dog fighting and such.

[capitalduty]

Are the simulation levels of the game the same? It looks very much like an RTS which would then have RTS level optimizations applied that would render it incapable of personal dog fighting and such.

No, simulation of a RTS as HW is not even close as X4 is doing in all terms, but when in comes from capital ships I could say there could be many improvements on AI path logic and fleet mechanics that could be implemented in a similar fashion on X4.

Big ships shouldn’t behave as small fighters, dogfighting is not on their natural scope. I think that in X series Capital Ships Ai have been always derivative of small craft AI, its ok to begin in this way, but with increasing level of fidelity and nowadays possibilities it does make sense to develop a dedicated AI behavior that is intended for capital ships and fleets combat optimization.
Some example about it is how now carriers behave today compared before 3.0 update, this kind of improvement makes a huge step in increasing fidelity and immersive feeling into the game, making combat gameplay and fleet managing way more fun. Yes we could add ton of content and features but AI improvement is essencial for the longevity of X-series in general.

[ezra-r]

Unexciting videos to be polite.

Battles are supposed to be chaotic, not something as exciting or similar as sorting books in a library.

My reference point, although X4 in some aspects is as cool, is FreeSpace 2, it is a game from 1999 and still this day is pretty hard to see such cool ambient and battles in any space game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCfYLGBkzZI

In any case, I saw something as quite ordered and sorted but much more exciting as that while throwing 10 Odysseus sentinels escorting a Zeus to attack an Argon Defence Station, while swarms of M ships attacked the station distracting their turrets. So in regard to battles, if properly used fleets, X4 can be quite more exciting than Homeworld by a large margin.

[BigBANGtheory]

Unexciting videos to be polite.

Battles are supposed to be chaotic, not something as exciting or similar as sorting books in a library.

My reference point, although X4 in some aspects is as cool, is FreeSpace 2, it is a game from 1999 and still this day is pretty hard to see such cool ambient and battles in any space game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCfYLGBkzZI

In any case, I saw something as quite ordered and sorted but much more exciting as that while throwing 10 Odysseus sentinels escorting a Zeus to attack an Argon Defence Station, while swarms of M ships attacked the station distracting their turrets. So in regard to battles, if properly used fleets, X4 can be quite more exciting than Homeworld by a large margin.

You got to admit though the XL and L pathfinding and AI flight is a weakness bordering on frustration. The solution atm is to teleport into and fly the thing yourself but for battles having the ships break formation really weakens your fleet which people compensate for by being OOS, and using 10 ships instead of 4.

Regardless of how you play or your view on fleet battles an uplift of the AI in this area would I'm sure be welcomed by everyone. I think more so now because other areas have improved so it exposes or shines a light on the next thing and AI has always been there (top of the list for some). Even as a trader its pretty frustrating to see 5-star pilots not engage travel mode, not dispatch a lone xenon M with 4 flak turrets or take 5mins to pass through a gate which you can manually line up and fly through at 3000m/s without dropping speed.

[capitalduty]

Battles are supposed to be chaotic, not something as exciting or similar as sorting books in a library.

I find that most battles start with some kind of planning and tactics beforehand, individual squadrons could have some kind of freedom to choose objectives, with some priority said first but massive capital ships tend to follow formations as close as possible. I don’t see a Modern Carrier battle group scattering and not fighting as a unit in an attack or defend scenario nowadays.

Normally combine arms warfare needs to follow clear a base tactics when engaging the enemy. Normally capital ships fight better in close formation and individual fighter or bomber squadrons follow their leader and strike their individual objectives with some planning beforehand.

That doesn’t mean that in a massive battle chaos takes control, but even in this situations a good general could rally combat assets and reorganize to guide orders to his captains.

And with big ships, that in general are “very important assets for their fleet” you simply need very precise control and commands because one mistake could make you lose a strategic advantage in a battle or even a war.

Imagine an Iowa class battleship going rogue against an entire japan naval fleet…or the USS Enterprise carrier without escorts fighting solo in the pacific war…that doesn’t make sense.

[Scoob]

I would like to see more fluid movement of ships, no doubt, though I think things are more buggy at times rather than not good in general. I.e. I was personally fighting some FAF Fighters last night - very fast ships of course, being Split - but it wasn't their speed or manoeuvrability that caused me problems, it was their invalid movement. From stopping instantly, to suddenly jinking sideways and other, physically invalid movements that really break the flow of the game.

The biggest one for me is that ships DON'T have to turn to thrust along a vector, they might decide they're going a certain way so they do, irrespective of whether the ship has actually turned to face that way yet or not. It's this most basic movement that needs work. I could give other examples, such as ships able to turn instantly, despite being in Travel Drive mode. Others engaging their Travel Drives despite being shot / not being booted out of Travel Drive when shot. Plus of course randomly just stopping and sitting there when in combat. How about ships just refusing to use their Travel Drives at all and deciding to fly 100km+ using regular engines.

Basically, things would be far more fluid if it weren't for the various movement bugs. These really need to be ironed out as they've been present since launch, though I've noticed them a bit more of late.

All that said, Homeworld is epic and a good example of good fleet control and movement. As X4 does have RTS elements, these should work as well as possible, so HW is a good example to follow in my view. Of course, X4 has more going on behind the scenes, but that doesn't forgive all of the quirkiness to movement in general.

Scoob.

[BigBANGtheory]

Of course, X4 has more going on behind the scenes, but that doesn't forgive all of the quirkiness to movement in general.

So that's a good point and if as you do in X4 have a more detailed level of simulation then it actually exposes the weaker parts they start to stand out.

In Sins of a Solar Empire (4X/RTS) you have capital ships that shoot at crazy angles relative to their guns and hard points which they just about get away with because the argument is you never zoom in that close to notice.... imagine if the X4 turrets didn't point in the direction of fire it would stand out. Its very noticeable that the AI doesn't pilot large ships particularly well, it works yes but it doesn't work well relative to the rest of the simulation.

[ezra-r]

@BigBANGtheory yes, better AI pathing would be a great benefit for the game, I won't deny that. This may sound ridiculous but I kind of learned a bit to work around game AI pathing flaws so I quite enjoy it as it is. Some destroyers seem to keep their distance, some others just screw up and get blown up, kind of like in real life with people. So for blowing stations from afar, Paranid and their slow but far reaching plasma L guns, for face to face combat with other ships I rather go with Split destroyers.

@capitalduty Yeap I agree, first tactics, then things can get out of hand, and capitals should try to stick to their place, no doubt X4 could improve this a bit. Still like I told BigBang, even though I agree I tend to enjoy having to work around some game flaws regarding this, so battles do not go on rails and start to bore me as hell, so in some cases I take command when I see certain captains being stupid, some others I let them die and I try to choose which types of ships do what..