Pilots skill

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Raevyan
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Raevyan » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 08:33

pref wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 04:27
I don't get the issue about skillup times, i just popped a drugplex less then 1.5 days ago, most of the captains are 2*, and 1 is into the 3rd already. All were fresh meat from the shipyard.
Another smaller plex produced 2*s in less then a game day. You get 3* in 2-4 game days if you never touch a seminar. Or you spend that 10sec per captain and cut off the day delay to get to 2* if 3* captains are your obsession.
How fast does it have to be?

Sending ships on point defence where enemies often move also works.

And how would a 3* captain be critical or mandatory? It's a nice to have feature for later game when your empire is complex enough to need more config options.

Also i just tested this, got a 0 star pilot gave him 1x basic and 2x 1star seminar and the guy is at 2 + 2/3*.
10 sec.. what on earth all these people complain about?

You know some ppl don’t like to do boring missions to get those 3* seminars, others need more than a few pilots. To me Auto Trade isn’t a late game command. It’s more of an early/mid game thing. Auto Traders don’t even make you a lot of credits. I have miners running since 3.0 release and they’re still not 3*. I have station traders since 3.0 that are still not 3*. I also have Distribute Ware traders since 3.0 that are still not 3*. I’ve got 32b in my account and want to set up an economy with lots of small stations and DW/Auto Traders and need more than a few 2*+ pilots. Late game that is a tedious nightmare. (Oh before you say it, I’ve spend 2h looking for a skilled captain on stations, did not even found a single 2* one, then stopped bothering with that boring “gameplay”).

Aside from that, Egosoft does not want to reward automation with skill progression. Your drug plex, although on an extreme end, is just that. Fully automated with no player intervention (getting all those black marketeer is time intensive and boring too). Because you can exploit black marketeers with infinite demand you can keep your 300+ module plex running and ships constantly in the move. You level them by the sheer number of trades, that is only possible with small ships and the exploit of infinite demand that refreshes the second after the trade was done.

Also, parking a group of ships next to a xenon gate and let them defend is also no effort, no player intervention. I’m mostly complaining because the reasoning behind the leveling system that Egosoft gave us is completely garbage. “Automation should not reward skill gains” —> station managers level like crazy, xenon gate defense work quite well, invincible khaak stations with infinite spawning khaak can be exploited.

Gavrushka
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Gavrushka » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 08:48

I think Egosoft are gonna have to add an extra avenue from which more skilled pilots can emerge. - The issue as I see it is that significant numbers of players don't find an effective enough route to churn our personnel fit for a given purpose. It seems one glaring area of the sandbox where the tools aren't available to accommodate certain play styles.

And if there's one thing I've learned about Egosoft, it's that they do listen, but they've a very finite team and I imagine significant resources have been, and still are, allocated to working on the upcoming DLC.

*BUT* I really think a simple public 'we hear you' along with an assurance that the skilling system will be improved in due course would be beneficial. (If they've already done this, then consider everything complaining poked with a stick! :P )

I'm happy with the current system, but fully appreciate why others aren't. Now I've many factories filled with employees, it's fine for to wander around them and find skilled dudes for most roles free of charge. - I recognise for others, doing such a thing would be tedious, just as I'm sure they'd appreciate that I'd never consider hitting SETA to make a factory build quicker.
“Man, my poor head is battered,” Ed said.

“That explains its unusual shape,” Styanar said, grinning openly now. “Although it does little to illuminate just why your jowls are so flaccid or why you have quite so many chins.”

“I…” Had she just called him fat? “I am just a different species, that’s all.”

“Well nature sure does have a sense of humour then,” Styanar said. “Shall we go inside? It’d not be a good idea for me to be spotted by others.”

Accuracy
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Accuracy » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 14:47

pref wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 04:27
I don't get the issue about skillup times, i just popped a drugplex less then 1.5 days ago, most of the captains are 2*, and 1 is into the 3rd already. All were fresh meat from the shipyard.
Another smaller plex produced 2*s in less then a game day. You get 3* in 2-4 game days if you never touch a seminar. Or you spend that 10sec per captain and cut off the day delay to get to 2* if 3* captains are your obsession.
How fast does it have to be?

Sending ships on point defence where enemies often move also works.

And how would a 3* captain be critical or mandatory? It's a nice to have feature for later game when your empire is complex enough to need more config options.

Also i just tested this, got a 0 star pilot gave him 1x basic and 2x 1star seminar and the guy is at 2 + 2/3*.
10 sec.. what on earth all these people complain about?
Nothing in offense but you sound extremely ignorant. You have 8+ pages of people describing exactly what their problem is. The least you can do is act less arrogant and show some respect to them by at least bothering to read half of the complaints

sh1pman
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by sh1pman » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 15:09

@pref they’re never going to get 3* in piloting through trading, and the only way for a fighter pilot to get 3* is to make “hard” kills, that is killing enemy capships while in an S or M ship. And you need to kill *a lot* of capships. All other kills are considered “easy” and don’t give any progression past 2 2/3*. That’s what I observed in my game. Why Ego built such a system and gated some basic AI behaviours behind it is beyond my understanding. I guess the only intended way to level your pilots is through seminars, and any other “progression through activity” is in fact unintended and accidental.

Alan Phipps
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 15:47

@ Accuracy: pref just posted their personal experience in the game and their opinions without insulting any one else. I would be grateful if you would restrict yourself to doing the same. Typing 'Nothing in offence' before being offensive is not a defence.

@ pref: There is no need for you to respond further on the matter of insults but you can of course respond to the counter-arguments being raised.
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Raevyan
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Raevyan » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 16:49

sh1pman wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 15:09
@pref they’re never going to get 3* in piloting through trading, and the only way for a fighter pilot to get 3* is to make “hard” kills, that is killing enemy capships while in an S or M ship. And you need to kill *a lot* of capships. All other kills are considered “easy” and don’t give any progression past 2 2/3*. That’s what I observed in my game. Why Ego built such a system and gated some basic AI behaviours behind it is beyond my understanding. I guess the only intended way to level your pilots is through seminars, and any other “progression through activity” is in fact unintended and accidental.
And even when he gets hard kills It comes down to a pretty low chance of rng which is even more hilarious.

jlehtone
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 17:11

We have full spectrum: content, happy, and not ok:
Gavrushka wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 08:48
I'm happy with the current system, but fully appreciate why others aren't.
pref wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 04:27
I don't get the issue about skillup times, i just popped a drugplex less then 1.5 days ago, most of the captains are 2*, and 1 is into the 3rd already. All were fresh meat from the shipyard.
sh1pman wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 15:09
@pref they’re never going to get 3* in piloting through trading
It is unclear whether the "into the 3rd already" contradicts with "never going to get 3*" or not.

We can guess what happens in task priorization when everybody is not unhappy.
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GCU Grey Area
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 18:47

I quite like the current system. The way it works means that the average pilot ends up with average stats, which seems fair enough to me & if I want better pilots I have to put in a little bit of effort to train them. Really don't mind doing that, indeed gives me a bit of pleasure selecting a specific individual to receive the training.

Mostly I get my candidates for further training from among the fighter pilots aboard my carrier. They seem end up as gung-ho maniacs just by doing their standard job (Interception), generally ending up with average piloting (around 2-3*) & high (4*+) Morale. I pick those with the best Morale & use seminars to finish their training before assigning them a destroyer to command. Seminars I find relatively easy to obtain & am acquiring them at a faster rate than I use them.

Mostly get my seminars from guild missions & find I can mostly delegate the task to other ships loaded with the right stuff (e.g. sats), so completing the mission is as easy as opening the map & telling another ship where to go & what to do when it arrives. If there's anything which actually requires personal involvement (e.g. the mining missions) it's just a matter of judging whether the reward for that mission (& any subsequent missions in the chain) is worth my time. If it is I'll do it, if not abort the mission & do a different one.

dtpsprt
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by dtpsprt » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 19:25

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 18:47
I quite like the current system. The way it works means that the average pilot ends up with average stats, which seems fair enough to me & if I want better pilots I have to put in a little bit of effort to train them. Really don't mind doing that, indeed gives me a bit of pleasure selecting a specific individual to receive the training.

Mostly I get my candidates for further training from among the fighter pilots aboard my carrier. They seem end up as gung-ho maniacs just by doing their standard job (Interception), generally ending up with average piloting (around 2-3*) & high (4*+) Morale. I pick those with the best Morale & use seminars to finish their training before assigning them a destroyer to command. Seminars I find relatively easy to obtain & am acquiring them at a faster rate than I use them.
And when exactly did you get that carrier? In game days that is. There are (lots of) people that need about a week or more to complete a game day since they are working or seriously occupied otherwise (i.e. caring for someone or studying). So if you tell me it took you 4 game days that means a month of grinding for those people. Then how many days did it took the carrier pilots to progress? This, as a matter of real perspective.

Then you can notice that the "complaint" mostly involves early to mid game. After you have made your first 10 billion you can easily just fork meat in the grinder and come on top... Reminds me the Trench War of WW 1 (Real life, not a game.... google it)
GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 18:47
Mostly get my seminars from guild missions & find I can mostly delegate the task to other ships loaded with the right stuff (e.g. sats), so completing the mission is as easy as opening the map & telling another ship where to go & what to do when it arrives. If there's anything which actually requires personal involvement (e.g. the mining missions) it's just a matter of judging whether the reward for that mission (& any subsequent missions in the chain) is worth my time. If it is I'll do it, if not abort the mission & do a different one.
I do agree that this is the best way to do it, even though if one bothers to take a look in the mission descriptions outside of guild missions you can find (rare to be honest) missions that give 2, even 3 star Piloting and Managerial Seminars.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 20:33

dtpsprt wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 19:25
And when exactly did you get that carrier? In game days that is. There are (lots of) people that need about a week or more to complete a game day since they are working or seriously occupied otherwise (i.e. caring for someone or studying). So if you tell me it took you 4 game days that means a month of grinding for those people. Then how many days did it took the carrier pilots to progress? This, as a matter of real perspective.

Then you can notice that the "complaint" mostly involves early to mid game. After you have made your first 10 billion you can easily just fork meat in the grinder and come on top... Reminds me the Trench War of WW 1 (Real life, not a game.... google it)
Honestly don't remember precisely when I got the carrier (months ago). It was however still in the phase of the game when I had to be careful how I spent my money & still had plot missions to complete which required vast amounts of cash. At that stage pretty much every credit was still derived from a fleet of 6 manually controlled freighters. Think I'd started building my first station by that point, but I was still putting more credits into it's construction than I was getting back in profits. Think I had 2 destroyers at that point & had decided they could probably do with a bit of fighter support, so got the fleet a carrier rather than a third destroyer.

As for how long it took the fighters to level up - probably around 1 day in total, though wasn't keeping close track of pilot skills at the time (could potentially have happened sooner, just know at the end of it I had some decently experienced pilots). Fighter pilots primarily levelled up by helping to defend construction sites near gates to Xenon infested sectors, while my construction vessel built defence platforms for the Argons behind my fleet. Each platform took an evening session to build (around 3-4 hours) & fighting was in waves, but fairly continuous. Think I'd built 6 such defence platforms before I decided I had the Xenon sufficiently well contained. Hence the estimate of roughly 1 day total fighting time for fighter pilots to hit their effective max level for on the job learning.

Clownmug
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Clownmug » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 22:15

Is this really that hard for people? I'm having no issues creating 3-star pilots by just following the steps below.

1) Assign work to fully crewed ships: explore, patrol, sector miner, station miner, station trader
2) Buy basic pilot seminars and 1-star pilot seminars from trader corners
3) Earn 2-star pilot seminars from missions
4) Check personnel management menu for employees with 3 stars morale
5) Give seminars to those employees
6) Reassign employees as needed

Alternatively, I could just complete guild missions with Magnetar or Chthonios as reward that come with 3-star captains.

jlehtone
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by jlehtone » Sun, 20. Sep 20, 23:22

dtpsprt wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 19:25
There are (lots of) people that need about a week or more to complete a game day since they are working or seriously occupied otherwise (i.e. caring for someone or studying). So if you tell me it took you 4 game days that means a month of grinding for those people.
If you play six nights a week, four hours per night, then you get 24 hours -- one day, per week.
Four hours per night seems quite a lot, when you are otherwise occupied too.
It took me almost three months to get a Raptor and sufficient wing.

Technically, one does not need a Carrier for Intercept wings; almost any barge will do as a "Controller".
It is the fighters/trainers that one has to gather.
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pref
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by pref » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 01:10

sh1pman wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 15:09
@pref they’re never going to get 3* in piloting through trading,
That's definitely false, i have plenty 3* who only gained stars via trading. Actually the guy whom i was talking about, that got a basic and 2 1* seminars has already 3* in piloting since because i sent him to DW, but maybe i got extremely lucky with him.
Just using 1* seminars i now created 20-30 2+2/3* pilots, curious how long they take to level via normal activities.

And i still don't get why would 3* guys be mandatory for anything?

dtpsprt
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by dtpsprt » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 02:30

jlehtone wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 23:22
dtpsprt wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 19:25
There are (lots of) people that need about a week or more to complete a game day since they are working or seriously occupied otherwise (i.e. caring for someone or studying). So if you tell me it took you 4 game days that means a month of grinding for those people.
If you play six nights a week, four hours per night, then you get 24 hours -- one day, per week.
Four hours per night seems quite a lot, when you are otherwise occupied too.
It took me almost three months to get a Raptor and sufficient wing.

Technically, one does not need a Carrier for Intercept wings; almost any barge will do as a "Controller".
It is the fighters/trainers that one has to gather.
You got my point exactly to the dot. If you add absurd load/reload and save times, these 4 hours of playing easily translate to 5 or more. Then the game day can easily become a week and a half? Maybe more?

Then comes the elephant in the room: Who will invest this amount of time in grind to start getting meaningful results? The game locks a huge amount of people out, leaving only dedicated affictionados (like me for example) and people with too much time to spare and huge amounts of patience (a rare breed), waiting to see results for their efforts.

This inevitably results in Egosoft remaining a small Indie producer, dependent on the likes of Steam to sell (can't forget my disappointment the first time I entered the Egosoft site and was directed to another, I believe it was Gamesgate or something, to get my game...), so now we have to be loading spyware (What I call Steam and the likes mainly because they are) to play

dtpsprt
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by dtpsprt » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 02:36

pref wrote:
Mon, 21. Sep 20, 01:10

And i still don't get why would 3* guys be mandatory for anything?
3* is mandatory for advanced auto mining for example. Two autominers operating in a sector will just saturate demand even to a standstill in less than 3 in game hours (even one can do it), making this whole thing senseless (especially in early game) because they will have barely make their buying price return. If they are able to trade in more sectors than one this does not happen and your initial investment turns out profits that you desperately need in early game (less than 1 game day).

TwistedSeven
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by TwistedSeven » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 03:52

A good solution would be to split the pilot skill into 3,
Combat
Trading
Mining

That way my miners can get to the stage where they can do more advanced commands, without hitting the "forbidden" auto trader command.
And my combat pilots can gain lvls through the "new uncapped" combat skill, so they can do more advanced stuff without hitting the "forbidden" auto trader command.
And my traders gets assigned to stations, and in the event, i get some seminars, i most likely would save those, since risk/rewards is much higher for autotraders then it is for the easily replaced station trader.
,,?,,
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dtpsprt
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by dtpsprt » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 07:29

TwistedSeven wrote:
Mon, 21. Sep 20, 03:52
A good solution would be to split the pilot skill into 3,
Combat
Trading
Mining

That way my miners can get to the stage where they can do more advanced commands, without hitting the "forbidden" auto trader command.
And my combat pilots can gain lvls through the "new uncapped" combat skill, so they can do more advanced stuff without hitting the "forbidden" auto trader command.
And my traders gets assigned to stations, and in the event, i get some seminars, i most likely would save those, since risk/rewards is much higher for autotraders then it is for the easily replaced station trader.
Now this is a proposal that makes sense.
Notwithstanding the fact that in the current system, except for combat, the dice is rolled for promotion on successful trades only which makes sense for the traders (selling above the base price) but makes absolutely no sense for miners since all the money they get from a trade is pure profit as they do not buy anything and the resources they sell drop in price very quickly due to easy saturation of the market, since they are not able to travel to other systems.

sh1pman
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by sh1pman » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 11:22

pref wrote:
Mon, 21. Sep 20, 01:10
sh1pman wrote:
Sun, 20. Sep 20, 15:09
@pref they’re never going to get 3* in piloting through trading,
That's definitely false, i have plenty 3* who only gained stars via trading. Actually the guy whom i was talking about, that got a basic and 2 1* seminars has already 3* in piloting since because i sent him to DW, but maybe i got extremely lucky with him.
Just using 1* seminars i now created 20-30 2+2/3* pilots, curious how long they take to level via normal activities.

And i still don't get why would 3* guys be mandatory for anything?
The probability of leveling from 8 to 9 points (2 2/3* to 3*) through trading is 1*(0.32)^9 = 0.0035%. Or ~28000 trade flights on average to level up. So yes, it does look like you got extremely lucky.

Assuming a 3 minute average trade run duration, it takes ~1400 hours (on average) to level up from 2 2/3* to 3*.

M4lInX255
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by M4lInX255 » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 14:03

Just adding my grain of salt by paraphrasing what I said in an another thread.

Egosoft wants to prevent the automation snowball by locking the "Give me a behaviour and forget about me" commands behind pilot level progression. I think the vast majority of players agrees with this, since just being able to spam autotraders (like it was more or less possible in X3) means you never really get invested in the economy in a proactive manner. You'll have to actually think and find the most efficient trade routes yourself, at least at the beginning. That's fine, but in the current state of the game, because of the leveling system, autotrading and other similar commands are essentially never used. For instance autotraders are not that good in the first place, and become almost useless once you start having enough stations and control over the economy. So why bother spending time finding seminars for pilots when you can just directly jump to station building?

So I am just wondering (this is actually a genuine question): what idea does Egosoft have of what the level distribution of all pilots must look like, for let's say an empire that is of the order of magnitude of a faction (endgame)? Are most station/universe traders, even the ones you have since a very long time, supposed to stay around 2-3 stars? Are we supposed to spend time to hunt seminars to train a handful of pilots so they can be assigned to more important positions, like carriers, L transporters, etc... in order to maximize their utility? Or should we expect all pilots to eventually reach 5 stars by themselves, after a reasonable time and/or money investment? I don't know if it's clear so I'll try to reformulate. My question is essentially: do the devs want the player to have an overwhelming majority of average, non-qualified pilots, that are never expected to reach 3+ stars by themselves, no matter how long they spend trading or how big your empire is? Or do they just want to limit how fast they gain levels in order to prevent the player from automatizing things too fast at the beginning, meaning that once the player's empire is developed enough they should be able to find higher level pilots easily?

If it's the first case, then most trade commands that are locked behind 3+ stars are not really useful, since as said before, it's not cost-effective at all to hunt for seminar missions to train a pilot so they can do something that may (or may not) be slightly more lucrative than what a regular trader does. Moreover, in this case the level for traders is virtually limited to 3 stars, since a high level pilot is so precious you'll want to put them in a destroyed or a carrier. This means that any bonus traders may have when they reach 4 or 5 stars is irrelevant, since you will never have enough (if any) of them for it to have a significant impact.

If it's the second case, then the current leveling system is overkill. Yes it should take time, but at some point you should still expect traders to level up by themselves. And as reported many times by many people, it is simply not the case.

I know Egosoft is limited when it comes to manpower, so it is not reasonable to ask them to come with a very sophisticated experience-like system in the near future. However, here are some ideas that in my humble opinion would not be that long to implement:

1. The automation commands could be locked until the player reaches a given rank, and/or a given reputation level with the faction that owns the sector in which they wish to trade. For instance traders could only do the Distribute Wares command if the player is at least trading rank 5 and/or reputation level 10, Auto-trade would be 10/20, etc... Or there could be a limit to how many automatized traders there can be in a given sector, once again depending on rank/rep. This would do a good job at preventing automation snowball, while still allowing the player to actually use advanced commands.
2. The player could hire more experienced pilot, at a cost of course, depending on their rank.
3. Split the pilot skill into 2 or 3 different skills, as suggested by many people before (see in particular the post by TwistedSeven a few posts before mine). This would solve so many issues, while making things more logical (for instance farming Khaak stations or Xenon gates to level traders makes little sense, so does putting a skilled trader in charge of commanding a destroyer).
4. Pilots would have to buy a license before being able to use more advanced commands (like in X3). Lock the advanced commands behind very expensive licences to dissuade players with only a few ships from buying them.
5. There could be some facility/schools where pilots could go to get taught trading. You'd have a new command 'Go learn how to trade at %Station' and they would ping you when they're done.

Keeping the star restriction but implementing a couple of these ideas combined with an actual level progression system would give a new and welcome breath to the game. Not that this counts much but I have a personal preference for a combination of 3. and either 4. or 5. (or both).


People love the game but many (I'm among them) just find the current star/leveling system too restrictive, arbitrary and, sorry for the expression, quite nonsensical. In my humble opinion, this should be the one thing Egosoft should focus on before releasing 4.0 (apart from new content).
Last edited by M4lInX255 on Mon, 21. Sep 20, 14:34, edited 2 times in total.

Max Bain
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Re: Pilots skill

Post by Max Bain » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 14:29

M4lInX255 wrote:
Mon, 21. Sep 20, 14:03
good stuff
Your idea still misses the point that a 5 star pilot is not better than a 3 star pilot. Others have even tested 1 star vs 5 star with zero to little difference. No matter if in an L or S ship. I have tested it myself and I dont understand the whole discussion about leveling if it has no effect anyway (except for 3 stars to unlock all behaviours like auto trading). After that the benefit is so minimal (instead of a 0.1 second reaction delay you get a 0.01 second delay or so - just rough numbers out of my mind) that it never ever pays back any effort put into educating pilots above 3 stars.

The game lacks a system that makes skill count in combat. Engineering skill for example does count (every star adds regeneration) but your 5 star captain does not have higher firepower, nor more hull points, nor does he flight faster or anything like that. He only gets a hand full of random new moves that sometimes are better, but sometimes are worse than the old ones.
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