Looking forward to 4.0, but...

[M4lInX255]

Last time I played X4 was when 3.0 was released. I was thrilled by all the new additions, especially the Split factions. I had quite a lot of fun, and even though I am usually quite patient when it comes to X games, the experience was eventually ruined by a couple things that really irritated me... The worst one was the new leveling system at that time, that essentially made almost impossible getting 3+ stars pilots even after hundreds of hours, which meant that a third of the commands were essentially never used. Another one was the Xenons wrecking entire sectors unchallenged, with just a couple ships, because of the very poor faction economy, even with the player frantically helping however they can. I understand that Egosoft wanted to increase the difficulty. That's entirely fine with me. But in my opinion the only thing they managed to increase was the tediousness.

Anyway, I saw that 4.0 was announced and I was really excited to finally see the Terrans in X4, and wanted to take advantage of this opportunity to give the game another chance. The thing is, I do not want to be disappointed by the same things that made me give up last time. I think I'd just prefer not to go back at all. So my question is: how has the game evolve since? Have the aforementionned issues been addressed, or at least tweaked?

[Rei Ayanami]

Another one was the Xenons wrecking entire sectors unchallenged, with just a couple ships, because of the very poor faction economy, even with the player frantically helping however they can. I understand that Egosoft wanted to increase the difficulty. That's entirely fine with me. But in my opinion the only thing they managed to increase was the tediousness.

This one is highly dependent on the users game. Xenon have been reported from being the ultimate destroyers of the universe to being crying kittens cowering in a corner.
Personally I can say from experience that every faction seems to have extreme moodswings : Sometimes they are extremely passive, letting their enemies trample all over them, sometimes they are ultra aggressive, stomping everything that looks at them the wrong way.

In my current game HOP was winning at all fronts, almost wiping out ANT, ARG and PAR, who were not fighting back at all. After I stepped in and demolished several invading HOP fleets with dozens of destroyers, ANT and PAR went the total opposite and suddenly decided "You know what? Fck HOP!" and both went totally berserk on HOP, for whom, as a person who tries to keep every faction alive, I constructed three super-heavy defense platform at the entraces of their core sectors, which were the only protection from getting them wiped out by both ANT ant PAR.

And even earlier Xenon were totally stomping throughout the galaxy, almost wiping out ARG. After I pushed back they suddenly went totally passive, now doing only half-hearted attempts of expanding (they put down Xenon Defense station plots in enemy territory on a regular basis, but never make an effort to actually build them).

But overall I think it's a positive thing that no game seemingly goes the same way.
Sometimes I just with that we had more influence over what is happening, like diplomacy or lots of spending credits to influence what sector each friendly faction is going to conquer next.

[Raevyan]

Last time I played X4 was when 3.0 was released. I was thrilled by all the new additions, especially the Split factions. I had quite a lot of fun, and even though I am usually quite patient when it comes to X games, the experience was eventually ruined by a couple things that really irritated me... The worst one was the new leveling system at that time, that essentially made almost impossible getting 3+ stars pilots even after hundreds of hours, which meant that a third of the commands were essentially never used. Another one was the Xenons wrecking entire sectors unchallenged, with just a couple ships, because of the very poor faction economy, even with the player frantically helping however they can. I understand that Egosoft wanted to increase the difficulty. That's entirely fine with me. But in my opinion the only thing they managed to increase was the tediousness.

Anyway, I saw that 4.0 was announced and I was really excited to finally see the Terrans in X4, and wanted to take advantage of this opportunity to give the game another chance. The thing is, I do not want to be disappointed by the same things that made me give up last time. I think I'd just prefer not to go back at all. So my question is: how has the game evolve since? Have the aforementionned issues been addressed, or at least tweaked?

Well the game hasn’t changed that much. Some bugs that came with 3.0 are still present and are not fixed. The AI is still terrible and I don’t see Egosoft being able to fix that anytime soon (we’ve been waiting since Rebirth for an improvement of the AI...). Pilot leveling system is still the same stupid thing it was in 3.0. Well they fixed a few bugs that prevented miners from getting xo but they still don’t really level in a worthwhile time investment.

If I were you, I wouldn’t have too high expectations for 4.0. I’m expecting something similar to 3.0 and Split DLC. I’m almost certain that the new plots will also be riddled with bugs that probably won’t let you progress. We all know how Ego does QA... The new “endgame” feature (Terraforming) will probably just be a waiting game since money is easy to come by and shipping resources to it just takes time. If you use a 3.0 save chances are you have enough money.

[Nort The Fragrent]

Don’t get your hopes up. With 4.
Yes there will be more sectors,
Yes there will be more ships,
Yes there will be some token build modules,
Yes there will be the same bank of new engines to ponder why?

There will still be nothing to find if you go out exploring away from the centre,
And the distant stars will I am sure still look blurry and weak.

But on the up side there will be the Moon and Earth to view,
That will keep you occupied for an Hour.

I doubt the U.F.O. will return.
I doubt the ship paint mods will have improved.
And I doubt the pilot skill levelling will have changed.
Pilots are useless, that is unless you are playing the original x4 start up game from the very beginning. Then and only then may you have some 3*+ pilots left.

4,4 will be worth getting, just to see the Earth and the Moon. And may be some decent ships. But the rest will still be as is.

[vertauris]

Last time I played X4 was when 3.0 was released. I was thrilled by all the new additions, especially the Split factions. I had quite a lot of fun, and even though I am usually quite patient when it comes to X games, the experience was eventually ruined by a couple things that really irritated me... The worst one was the new leveling system at that time, that essentially made almost impossible getting 3+ stars pilots even after hundreds of hours, which meant that a third of the commands were essentially never used. Another one was the Xenons wrecking entire sectors unchallenged, with just a couple ships, because of the very poor faction economy, even with the player frantically helping however they can. I understand that Egosoft wanted to increase the difficulty. That's entirely fine with me. But in my opinion the only thing they managed to increase was the tediousness.

Anyway, I saw that 4.0 was announced and I was really excited to finally see the Terrans in X4, and wanted to take advantage of this opportunity to give the game another chance. The thing is, I do not want to be disappointed by the same things that made me give up last time. I think I'd just prefer not to go back at all. So my question is: how has the game evolve since? Have the aforementionned issues been addressed, or at least tweaked?

I totally agree with the leveling system flaws, no fun at all, I dont see any skill progression on my crews.

On the other hand situation with Xenon in my game is quite interesting and i rly like it. First of all Xenon named themselves King in the North by obliterating ZYA split faction down to 1 sector left and still expanding. I myself babysit FRF/CUB Split in north east with fleets and defence stations so no xenon is passing by which makes those split sector grow, many many new stations build, even Argon from eleventh hour start to build stations in Fires of Defeat sector for example.
Xenons on the south near HOP Paranids got destroyed, all sector south are claimed by Paranid so there are 0 Xenons there which i was not even part of as i mainly stay at FRF split space.
Argon Prime wharfs destroyed by Paranids during argon vs paranid WAR, Paranids being pretty strong here.
Xenons on the south east near Teladi are having quite a battles as well with back and forward wins and lossess, they recently claimed Company Regard sector but Teladi are working on them.
Argons near Hatiklav defending nicely alone but lost few stations and with Argon Prime destroyed by Paranid their economy is pretty bad. Thier faction representatives moved up north to the Eleventh Hour sector yet they face the King of the North Xenon race, will they survive without allies? time will tell.

Wharfs in my game are almost constantly out of ship tech parts, not because economy is failing but ship are being produced 24/7 (and lost) which just drives the whole economy on and on.
I can tell that this game needs a long time passed but it gets pretty interesting. I bet its totally random and it may vary from game to game but wanned to share my game experience.

What my hopes for 4.0 are mainly more Pirate and Khaak action in the universe. Yes Xenon make races busy but small raids of other "enemys" will be a great thing and in addition factions should respond better to those attacks.
I will totally start a new game with Terran DLC to see how my universe will shape this time.

[M4lInX255]

Ok so I have to admit that after reading the answers I'm a bit bummed out... I honestly can't believe the leveling system was kept as it was. I remember there was a 40+ page thread about it, where the devs said they would iterate and consider changes but it seems they did not... I guess it's more because they are stubborn about it, since in my opinion (I may be wrong though), switching to some kind of actual XP system (like the CAG/CLS in X3) would not take that much time. Heck, even slightly increasing the % chance would go a long way. If they play the game, and I'm sure they do, they must see themselves that there is something wrong.

Regarding the Xenon thing I remember reading indeed that people had many different experiences, I guess I was just very unlucky (ZYA, where I had most of my stations, got completely wiped out by a single Xenon I, while I was watching in horror in my Dragon).

Well, since I have the collector's edition, I might as well try the Terran start to explore a bit, but I think I will keep waiting before investing time in a save. Hopefully they will change/fix/twead everything that needs to be.

[pref]

I honestly can't believe the leveling system was kept as it was.

Recently seminars got boosted ime, i now usually need 1-2 to get to 2 stars, which is well enough. I got a 3* pilot by applying 3 seminars to a noob from a shipyard accidentally.
Distribute wares works better for supply chains then autotraders anyway, and startup profit isn't coming from autotrade in X4.
I'd say this problem is eliminated entirely.

Also regarding Xenon, in my game they got wiped by the NPC factions. I think this really depends on station construction material and ship availability. Heard lot of complaints about factions not expanding nor building enough but over here Duke - whom was often not doing much in others' games according to posts - went up to 25 stations in a matter of hours (all aimed at ship construction). Obviously any attacker would have a much harder time against that than a faction without supplies and a couple stations and thus a shipyard with an empty storage.

Progression here starts with small station builds after player had acquired their first few mills, not by releasing 500 automated traders. People who still try the X3 progression route usually get upset.
Also economic decisions have a strong impact on gameplay later which can be inconvenient but is a huge bonus for people who count on it.

[Raevyan]

I honestly can't believe the leveling system was kept as it was.

Recently seminars got boosted ime, i now usually need 1-2 to get to 2 stars, which is well enough. I got a 3* pilot by applying 3 seminars to a noob from a shipyard accidentally.
Distribute wares works better for supply chains then autotraders anyway, and startup profit isn't coming from autotrade in X4.
I'd say this problem is eliminated entirely.

I wouldn’t say it’s eliminated entirely. Ppl just have given up with the occasional 10+ page coming up now and then. Thing is Ego thinks Automation should not reward adequate leveling. Yet the only feasible way to level them is automation. Station managers for example level insanely fast compared to everything else. As for the seminars, I don’t think it’s fun to repeat the same boring mission again and again and again to get those 3* seminars. At least for me it is not fun if you need a decent amount of them.
By the time you got 3* star pilots you don’t need them. Which renders auto trade obsolete. Might as well remove the function from the game then. And it’s not that auto trade makes the most of money with least effort anyway.

But yeah I also doubt that 4.0 and DLC will launch this year despite they’ve marketed a 2020 release. That’s probably the first disappointment if the advertised 2020 release will be delayed. Dunno why they put that in the announcement while Bernd then tries to avoid answering this questions and is more confident in a delay than a release in time.

[M4lInX255]

I honestly can't believe the leveling system was kept as it was.

Recently seminars got boosted ime, i now usually need 1-2 to get to 2 stars, which is well enough. I got a 3* pilot by applying 3 seminars to a noob from a shipyard accidentally.
Distribute wares works better for supply chains then autotraders anyway, and startup profit isn't coming from autotrade in X4.
I'd say this problem is eliminated entirely.

Also regarding Xenon, in my game they got wiped by the NPC factions. I think this really depends on station construction material and ship availability. Heard lot of complaints about factions not expanding nor building enough but over here Duke - whom was often not doing much in others' games according to posts - went up to 25 stations in a matter of hours (all aimed at ship construction). Obviously any attacker would have a much harder time against that than a faction without supplies and a couple stations and thus a shipyard with an empty storage.

Progression here starts with small station builds after player had acquired their first few mills, not by releasing 500 automated traders. People who still try the X3 progression route usually get upset.
Also economic decisions have a strong impact on gameplay later which can be inconvenient but is a huge bonus for people who count on it.

I agree with most things said here, especially about the progression being different than with X3. The fact that you cannot exponentially multiply your profits by spamming auto trader is a good thing. But one has to admit that in the current state (or at least when I stopped playing a few months back), having even a single auto trader is an achievement in itself. Then I also agree about the distribute ware being a better default behaviour, but when you start buying ships by bulks, it is really really tedious to go through all the pilots one by one to give them enough seminars (which are time-consuming to get, especially the 2 stars ones) so they can do the most basic of the trading task. So I wouldn't say that the problem is eliminated, far from it.

[Clownmug]

Leveling up pilots seems fine to me, just requires time and effort. Time to raise your employees' morale by giving them work and effort to collect seminars used to train them.

[PreSpawn]

I have not much inner Race fights, no Sectors changing ownership.
The Xenon on the other hand tried to get into ZYAs space constandly so my Raptor and Rattlesnake where there, then it bugged me that 3K and an I already demolished COmpany Regard and half of Hewa. Before they could destroy the Trading Station there i eradicated including ScalePlate. Took me 3 evenings but they are no more there.
Well, the Xenon did some work on Family Zhin an Krit in the meantime. They also worked on the left Split sectors, so the Paranid poored in there... thats my next task to bring order there.
Hativak and HOP space are standing strong against the Xenon.
About training, i buy the 1 star training from stations traders. Level the pilots to 3 stars, and then use them in the ships i fly. I don't fly myself anymore, i delegate everything, and most important let them finish their task. i think it is working cause i have some 4 star pilots now.
Pilots dont really level when always doing only the same AutoTrade/Mine command.
It is said they level faster when often given orders, and they finish it.
But you are right, pilots level the slowest. It is much easier to level some engineers on your often damaged destroyer, and also recruits are often veterans after one/a few boardings...

[pref]

I don’t think it’s fun to repeat the same boring mission again and again and again to get those 3* seminars. At least for me it is not fun if you need a decent amount of them.
By the time you got 3* star pilots you don’t need them. Which renders auto trade obsolete. Might as well remove the function from the game then. And it’s not that auto trade makes the most of money with least effort anyway.

First distribute wares needs 2* captain, you can have one in about 10 secs.
Second, autotraders aren't really needed at all to operate an empire, distribute wares and station assigned traders are all that is required.

I usually use DW's to supply station chains, and for stations created for profit station traders only deal with sales, i restrict trade for all wares except the ones i want to turn a profit on. All my stations are self sufficient regarding cheap wares such as ecells or spices so station traders won't do their usual 10 item deals for 200cr and waste their time.
It works really well so far.

It would be real nice to only apply a restriction for station assigned traders, but not for trades between station and any external (not assigned to station but possibly player-owned) ships. This would allow station traders to act as a proper sales fleet without making the plex self-sufficient regarding low-profit, low-quantity wares.
Since ES hasn't eliminated this trade behaviour since 2 years where station traders choose extreme-low volume intermediate/resource wares that turn virtually no profit and are well stocked over end product trading i assume that will never change.
Can't say i understand the logic behind it though.

[aard00]

As for the seminars, I don’t think it’s fun to repeat the same boring mission again and again and again to get those 3* seminars.
...
By the time you got 3* star pilots you don’t need them. Which renders auto trade obsolete. Might as well remove the function from the game then. And it’s not that auto trade makes the most of money with least effort anyway.

Spot on!

The whole concept of Seminars is just daft beyond measure to me.

I mean what are they supposed to be? A book of some kind? A disc? And what, they go read it and in nanoseconds become experts in their field? And without reading/ingesting/whatever it is they do with it, they don't know how to point their ship through a hoop and push the pedal? I can do that with no stars. As many times as I want.

And then there's the stupidity of the player himself having to go out and purchase them for every single pilot that wants to advance. What, these people don't know how to go into a shop and buy it themselves? I suppose if they can't fly through a hoop, what hope is there they can walk up to a counter?

Don't care what anyone says, pilot skill progression in X4 remains absolutely rank. Not only that, with the current mess there is zero enjoyment to be had - got to be careful here - in ranking.

Thankfully - extremely so - you can ignore it completely and make money in other ways.

But the whole thing is just shotgun shot to the foot imo, because it just kills an entire swathe of the gameplay that should not only be open to the player, but also enjoyable to play.

[M4lInX255]

As for the seminars, I don’t think it’s fun to repeat the same boring mission again and again and again to get those 3* seminars.
...
By the time you got 3* star pilots you don’t need them. Which renders auto trade obsolete. Might as well remove the function from the game then. And it’s not that auto trade makes the most of money with least effort anyway.

Spot on!

The whole concept of Seminars is just daft beyond measure to me.

I mean what are they supposed to be? A book of some kind? A disc? And what, they go read it and in nanoseconds become experts in their field? And without reading/ingesting/whatever it is they do with it, they don't know how to point their ship through a hoop and push the pedal? I can do that with no stars. As many times as I want.

And then there's the stupidity of the player himself having to go out and purchase them for every single pilot that wants to advance. What, these people don't know how to go into a shop and buy it themselves? I suppose if they can't fly through a hoop, what hope is there they can walk up to a counter?

Don't care what anyone says, pilot skill progression in X4 remains absolutely rank. Not only that, with the current mess there is zero enjoyment to be had - got to be careful here - in ranking.

Thankfully - extremely so - you can ignore it completely and make money in other ways.

But the whole thing is just shotgun shot to the foot imo, because it just kills an entire swathe of the gameplay that should not only be open to the player, but also enjoyable to play.

My feeling right now is that Egosoft does not want the player to snowball too fast by simply automating traders, so they implemented this pilot progression bottleneck that can only be partly "solved" by the player tediously going from station to station to buy the 2 star seminars, and then going 4 or 5 times through this annoying 'Hello pilot, take this seminar!' thing for each pilot you hire. I'm not even talking about the 3 star seminars that are absolutely not worth the effort.

I don't mind that it takes time for pilots to level up. What I mind is that is either WAY too long (they essentially take forever to level themselves to 2 stars, not even talking about higher levels), or completely unfun and time-consuming for the player.

This is mostly what made me give up on the game. Yes there are workarounds to get money (spamming stations, essentially), but we should not have to work around a critically essential feature of the game. I really really wish they will polish (or even do a complete overhaul of) the leveling system before launching 4.0.

[Sandalpocalypse]

I'm sympathetic to the goal of constraining the number of auto traders, but I also hate how clumsy the seminars system is.

My personal solution to this quandary is to establish a two tiered system of normal and elite crew. Elite crew would be difficult or expensive to acquire and you'd have a limited # of slots for them based on some factor such as luxury station modules, rep with factions, fight rank, etc. They'd be equivalent to 5-star crew and would be necessary for autotrading, running trading stations, or several other advanced tasks. Elite crew would eject if their vessel is destroyed, necessitating the player go pick them up to rescue them; perhaps a late tier research could give them access to the teleporter network.

NPCs can be elite too, but it should be rare and elite ships explicitly marked. Elite pilots might also have significant ship mods on their vessels. They might lead battlefleets, or be high-end bounty targets.

I'd also deprecate the stars/skill levels system in favor of traits. Traits can be positive, negative, or mixed and would determine crew aptitude beyond just the bare fact of their existence. A Greenhorn pilot would be similar to a 1-star pilot now, but could morph to Experienced or Veteran in a similar way to how skills level up now. Other traits could be things like Military, Pirate, Zealot, etc. and would provide a formal basis for the behavior of NPCs in certain settings. Races could be predisposed towards traits - for example, the large majority of Split could have an Aggressive trait, making them behave less cautiously in battle. But exceptions can always be found.

More advanced and rare traits would exist too, like say Natural Leader, A Mind for Numbers, Metallurgical Expert, etc. that could provide large benefits in specific roles like capital ship captain or station manager.

[aard00]

My feeling right now is that Egosoft does not want the player to snowball too fast by simply automating traders, so they implemented this pilot progression bottleneck that can only be partly "solved" by the player tediously going from station to station to buy the 2 star seminars, and then going 4 or 5 times through this annoying 'Hello pilot, take this seminar!' thing for each pilot you hire. I'm not even talking about the 3 star seminars that are absolutely not worth the effort.

I don't mind that it takes time for pilots to level up. What I mind is that is either WAY too long (they essentially take forever to level themselves to 2 stars, not even talking about higher levels), or completely unfun and time-consuming for the player.

This is mostly what made me give up on the game. Yes there are workarounds to get money (spamming stations, essentially), but we should not have to work around a critically essential feature of the game. I really really wish they will polish (or even do a complete overhaul of) the leveling system before launching 4.0.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right everywhere.

I'm absolutely not against levelling. I want it. But in most successful titles that feature levelling and character progression, it's an integral and enjoyable aspect of the game. Take Assassin's Creed Odyssey, a game that's slick as a slick thing on slicks that's just been slicked with slicky stuff. There's not a single moment where levelling gets in the way of enjoyment, or where you feel the reward hasn't been worth it, or that the premise doesn't make sense, or that there isn't a (very clear) progression path that makes you *want* to level up and take it right to the end.

In X4 it's the opposite. It's like they realised they wanted levelling and then shoved in the first thing that came to mind in order to slow progression. Well they've slowed it all right. But that's about the sum of anything positive you can say about it. So while I think they're absolutely right to want to include levelling, because when done well it should add tons of longevity and enjoyment, I don't think they're anywhere near right in the way they're going about it.


It's symptomatic of so many of the features in X4. They're in the game, but so many really are half baked. The core of the game though, I think is very close to a work of art. I love it.

[Manawydn]

I use the Crew Academies mod and it seems to be the way to go. It has super high startup costs, plus research requirements, so you can't gain access to them right away. They give you avg 2-3 star employees around mid-game, and 4 star at late game. Problem solved. There are a bunch of things in mods that should be applied to the vanilla game in my opinion.

"New ships are difficult to design" That may be true, but there are a bunch of mods that already port and/or modify existing ships to create more variety. So it can be done in a timely manner. Hopefully 4.0 will overhaul some existing carriers to be more in line with the Split Raptor.

https://i.redd.it/6vzqkfup39q41.png