Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

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Matthew94
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Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by Matthew94 » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 21:44

For most ship tiers the distance a weapon can fire increases with the ship class (it's the case for plasma cannons at least) whereas stations can't fire any further than L destroyers. In some cases destroyers, such as the Odysseus, can out-range a station.

If this weapon distance-scaling was applied to stations and they could fire from something like 15-20 km away then allied stations would be easier to defend, invading enemy sectors would be much harder, and you could use stations offensively i.e. place a fleet at a gate and build an offence platform to create a beachhead.

Right now you can simply fly past most defence platforms and the only reason you'd ever attack one is when you want control over a sector. It's merely a formality to destroy them as they don't have any real effect on a player's gameplay and with the right fleet you can take them out without sustaining any damage. This would beef them up and make them an actual threat.

What do you think?

Gregorovitch
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by Gregorovitch » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 22:11

We had quite a long discussion about this over on the Steam board.

My analysis of it was:

If you increased the range of station L plasma turrets then then there would be no way to take down the stations at all with even remotely acceptable losses because stations have so many more hit points than battleships, they would always win a game of attrition. This would render the game a stalemate.

If you left it as it is range-wise but made the fleet AI better at setting up destroyers at max range to they could shoot the stations with impunity with their main batteries then taking down a station would be as simple as selecting a fleet with a handful of destroyers, right clicking the target station and selecting attack (which AI factions would also do on auto-pilot). RIP. Next. This would render the game a bloodbath. It would be over in a few hours as pretty much all productive capacity would be destroyed right, left and center.

So instead we have a) a brain dead fleet AI that can take down stations after a fashion but makes "deliberate mistakes" to ensure significant but not overwhelming losses which slows the process on invasion down and b) we have tactics available to the player that only work if they take personal control of the attacking fleet (such as manual turret sniping with an Odey or careful positioning just inside L plasma turret range but beyond station turret range) which again slows down the process of invasion but gives the player a small edge at the cost of time and effort.

In short this is a balance issue. Whatever you do to change it, even it seems like a small detail, is going to have a very big impact on how the game plays out over 200 hours.
Last edited by Gregorovitch on Sat, 28. Nov 20, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

Alan Phipps
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by Alan Phipps » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 22:12

I think that there are many different issues at play at the same time and each requires quite different game handling and balancing from the devs for an overall change to be successful. Just a few examples of what I might mean:
  • Weapon ranges need to affect both fixed weapons and turret weapons.
    Unwanted battle gameplay where targets just appear as dots/blobs in the distance.
    How to balance range and accuracy as longer range means nothing if they miss, especially against moving/manoeuvring targets.
    Balancing station/ship/turret 'alerting' ranges to align weapons before or at the longer engagement ranges.
    Long range weapons distracted firing at first-to-appear fast/agile targets that they will never hit, and continuing to do so while capitals come into range.
    Missile/gun turret allocation and balancing on ships and stations.
    Blue on blue/collateral damage increase from longer range heavy projectiles.
    AI capital handling and stand-off tactics.
    OOS/low attention vs IS/high attention battle balancing.
    Longer life bullets may mean lower fps.
I think that a simple 'Increase the range' can easily become a nightmare for the devs.
A dog has a master; a cat has domestic staff.

Lord Crc
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by Lord Crc » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 22:16

At the one hand, I think it's reasonable that a stationary target like a station is easy prey to a fleet of destroyers enjoying "air superiority".

On the flipside, I agree that the limited range of the heavy station weapons feels wrong.

Not sure it's an easy fix though, given the complex interplay of everything.

xant
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by xant » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 22:19

It wouldn't be too hard to implement some kind of a solution: XL turrets that are built upon a slightly edited version of the already existing defense modules, using a weapon that is based on (or nearly identical to) the respective racial destroyer battery. No change in range needed I think, they provide enough firepower and range as is.

But I feel it could quickly become unbalanced in the hands of a human player, so there should be something like a logistical challenge to building and operating such weapons. Maybe Kyon Crystals as building material? Or something like a cooling system that uses up resources?

At least there would be a good reason to attack stations with missiles/fighters first before sending in the destroyers.

capitalduty
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by capitalduty » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 22:49

I think you are missing something important, most important balance is oos, not in sector, a small range difference wont affect as much as you believe, also I feel against improving stations, those are already very powerful vs ai controlled ships...against the player is another thing, better results IMO is to improve faction response to treats into their sectors and increasing defend and attack forces all around in the late game.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 23:28

Not keen on this idea at all. If stations had double the range of destroyers it would make the destroyers obsolete. With the number of turrets stations often have there would be little chance of a destroyer getting close enough to even fire a single shot. Definitely prefer the current balance with respect to range of destroyer main guns & station turrets.

jlehtone
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by jlehtone » Sat, 28. Nov 20, 23:47

Make HOP Great Again

In my game they have lost their fleets and even one sector (to PAR).
When given offer, I did build a Defence Platform for them (in that lost sector).
Essentially same build plan as all NPC Paranids use. But, I made sure that
it had all turrets on before it hoisted the HOP colours.

It has already wasted several PAR Oddys. Only minor dents, but someone
is resupplying it diligently. :roll:


Point of story: even a "standard" NPC station with current gun ranges is
reasonably lethal against ships.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.

NightmareNight91
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Re: Idea: Increase the distance of station weaponary

Post by NightmareNight91 » Mon, 30. Nov 20, 08:57

Just throwing a slightly off topic opinion, the devs should just copy some ides from the vro mod, increased range and bullet speed for L and Xl ships/stations. Just tone down the damage buff that vro applies as it is a bit to high.

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