Please fix ZYA strength.

[EGO_Aut]

.........
I have now started an experiment.
I had Raptor on Zyarth I West intercepting Xenon that pour from 598. I'm pulling it out, so the Teladi have to deal with Xenon all on their own. I will probably "encourage" some Xenon SY to "migrate back" to Rhy/598 for extra punch. If Xenon wipe Teladi out of Zyarth I, then perhaps ZYA will make a claim.

I eliminated some Teladi defence stations, i did not loose much reputation(30-26 ), and it was real good and fast for ZYA. Before i waited ages that Xenon make the job, but TEL got a ZYA supportfleet, this was the trigger for me to do so.

[zakaluka]

This has a huge amount to do with what factories spawn in at gamestart. What is their production capacity depends a great deal on whether the hull parts & engine parts shortages are severe, and whether they have enough ore refineries to sustain those tier 2 factories. What is their capacity for defense depends a great deal on whether defense stations are positioned well, and how much production of turret components they have, and whether there are enough silicon wafer productions to supply those.

You can really make them MUCH stronger and also earn a ton of money, just setting up a trade route from teladi space to ZYA space. Only trading in 2 or 3 key goods. 1 dock with a storage module in two grand. Wham bam. (and maybe add in your own local trade station to just move wafers & refined metals, to bolster local production)

I have had game starts where ZYA held easily against ARG in the opening and were still able to prevent Xenon advance. I have had game starts where their line broke against xenon after taking heavy losses against the argon. It's a bit of luck.

[jlehtone]

I think that for the topic of the thread a basic question is: Should the player be inconsequential?

If yes, then make each faction so strong/weak that they will never need the player.

[sh1pman]

I think that for the topic of the thread a basic question is: Should the player be inconsequential?

If yes, then make each faction so strong/weak that they will never need the player.

No, that question is wrong. Player will always be consequential. The question is what kind of status quo will be established if player chooses not to interfere. It can be pre-determined or completely random, and in case of ZYA it is (from my observations ) heavily weighted towards “bulldozed into the ground” due to various geostrategic factors like resource distribution. Considering its lore, I’d expect ZYA performance and outcome to be at least more random, but preferably stronger and more stable. Player can then run them over if he/she wants to.

[RedEyedRaven]

and in case of ZYA it is (from my observations ) heavily weighted towards “bulldozed into the ground” due to various geostrategic factors like resource distribution.

Also, considering ZYA is supposedly the MAJOR Split-faction lore-wise, they should be a lot better prepared to defend their rather vast territory. The economy being less than favorable is okay - Split are warriors first and foremost. As such, however, they should start out with better fortifications and stronger fleets.

[GCU Grey Area]

Considering its lore, I’d expect ZYA performance and outcome to be at least more random, but preferably stronger and more stable.

Not so sure about that myself. Immediate background at start of game is ZYA are at the end of a war of unification. They have defeated FRF in battle, but have yet to consolidate their gains (i.e. resource rich FRF territory). Believe that's what the Split plot does if you side with ZYA, though don't know for sure (playing as ZYA in my current game but have barely started the plot). As it stands however think it's reasonable that, as the game starts, ZYA are significantly weakened (due to losses in the war & having to police a bunch of disgruntled rebels), while not really benefiting all that much yet from the new resources they now have access to. Not a situation I'd really describe as stable, probably why it's a good scenario for a Split plot, where the player can have a pivotal role in what happens next.

[Nagittchi]

In my game, the ZYA were going to be wiped out. There were no more patrols, constant Xenon incursions prevented them from building anything. When Family Zhin got taken over by the Xenon, I decided to step in and guard the majority of the gates from Xenon, making sure the Patriarchy lives on.

Once I built up my Claytronics Factory, I'm slowly seeing Rattlesnake patrols popping up again as well as Factories turning into factories that actually producing goods.

Kinda sucks that the Split arent a threat if the player doesnt massively help them though.

[sh1pman]

Kinda sucks that the Split arent a threat if the player doesnt massively help them though.

Yes! Split are warriors, they should be tough and aggressive like HOP or even more so. Otherwise this DLC adds two wimpy Split factions, how fun is that. Amusingly, FRF are doing MUCH better than ZYA who were supposed to be the winners of their conflict.

[GCU Grey Area]

Yes! Split are warriors, they should be tough and aggressive like HOP or even more so. Otherwise this DLC adds two wimpy Split factions, how fun is that. Amusingly, FRF are doing MUCH better than ZYA who were supposed to be the winners of their conflict.

Frankly care a lot less about that than having a thoroughly enjoyable challenge in the game. Defending my people against the ravages of the Xenon, while simultaneously tricking those FRF degenerates has been a ton of fun. Would be far less interesting if ZYA could simply stomp all over their neighbouring Xenon sectors in a matter of days (c.f. HOP). Mainly chose the ZYA start for my current game because I saw what happened to ZYA in my previous FRF game. Looked like an interesting challenge. If they'd been an all-powerful faction that didn't need my help doubt I'd have bothered playing the start at all. Really think this is a situation where enjoyable gameplay is much more important than lore.

[sh1pman]

Frankly care a lot less about that than having a thoroughly enjoyable challenge in the game. Defending my people against the ravages of the Xenon, while simultaneously tricking those FRF degenerates has been a ton of fun. Would be far less interesting if ZYA could simply stomp all over their neighbouring Xenon sectors in a matter of days (c.f. HOP). Mainly chose the ZYA start for my current game because I saw what happened to ZYA in my previous FRF game. Looked like an interesting challenge. If they'd been an all-powerful faction that didn't need my help doubt I'd have bothered playing the start at all. Really think this is a situation where enjoyable gameplay is much more important than lore.

For the record, I’m absolutely fine with having factions that require player’s intervention in order to survive, but ZYA? Really?.. They have the most badass ships in the galaxy (well, until Terrans come...), and it’s just sad that they tend to end up as a punching bag for Xenon faster than most other factions. Maybe they’ve been terribly unlucky in my saves, but other players agreed that they felt the same.

BTW, just to see what happens, I cleared Family Zhin and blocked all three gates to Xenon sectors with my fleet. Placed a factory that makes hull parts, engine parts and weapon components and started selling them to ZYA. Their wharf seemingly began to come back to life, but VEEERY slowly... No idea when they get ready to take back their sectors. ZYA sectors still look like ghost towns.

[GCU Grey Area]

They have the most badass ships in the galaxy...

Yeah, those badass ships are part of the problem. Not bad ships, but bloody expensive to make in terms of material costs - almost 12k hull parts just for the bare chassis of a Rattlesnake, whereas all the other factions can build a destroyer out of less than 5k (essentially 1 Rattler = 2.6 Behemoths).

[sh1pman]

Yeah, those badass ships are part of the problem. Not bad ships, but bloody expensive to make in terms of material costs - almost 12k hull parts just for the bare chassis of a Rattlesnake, whereas all the other factions can build a destroyer out of less than 5k (essentially 1 Rattler = 2.6 Behemoths).

They also spend a ton of engine parts on those fancy mk4 combat engines as well. Like 3k engine parts per Chimera, madness.

[dtpsprt]

Yeah, those badass ships are part of the problem. Not bad ships, but bloody expensive to make in terms of material costs - almost 12k hull parts just for the bare chassis of a Rattlesnake, whereas all the other factions can build a destroyer out of less than 5k (essentially 1 Rattler = 2.6 Behemoths).

They also spend a ton of engine parts on those fancy mk4 combat engines as well. Like 3k engine parts per Chimera, madness.

Welllllllll.... so much for a "live" economy and "real life like" ship construction etc... Never even thought to complain about these things in the X series (X4 is not X)... serves right the ones that do not think of the consequences of their demands and keep on shouting "more more more"...

[EGO_Aut]

Frankly care a lot less about that than having a thoroughly enjoyable challenge in the game. Defending my people against the ravages of the Xenon, while simultaneously tricking those FRF degenerates has been a ton of fun. Would be far less interesting if ZYA could simply stomp all over their neighbouring Xenon sectors in a matter of days (c.f. HOP). Mainly chose the ZYA start for my current game because I saw what happened to ZYA in my previous FRF game. Looked like an interesting challenge. If they'd been an all-powerful faction that didn't need my help doubt I'd have bothered playing the start at all. Really think this is a situation where enjoyable gameplay is much more important than lore.

For the record, I’m absolutely fine with having factions that require player’s intervention in order to survive, but ZYA? Really?.. They have the most badass ships in the galaxy (well, until Terrans come...), and it’s just sad that they tend to end up as a punching bag for Xenon faster than most other factions. Maybe they’ve been terribly unlucky in my saves, but other players agreed that they felt the same.

BTW, just to see what happens, I cleared Family Zhin and blocked all three gates to Xenon sectors with my fleet. Placed a factory that makes hull parts, engine parts and weapon components and started selling them to ZYA. Their wharf seemingly began to come back to life, but VEEERY slowly... No idea when they get ready to take back their sectors. ZYA sectors still look like ghost towns.

They come back, very stronk
I did the same, and had to clear some of the sectors from TEL to get ZYA back-it takes a while. But now they have about 20x Rattles and a Flagship Raptor and the Xenon sectors get conquered pretty fast, same with the ARG neighbors.

Like mentioned above, Rattles need a lot of supply, if the supplychain is broken all halts.

[jlehtone]

The ZYA are binary; either very stronk or very dead.

[zakaluka]

Welllllllll.... so much for a "live" economy and "real life like" ship construction etc... Never even thought to complain about these things in the X series (X4 is not X)... serves right the ones that do not think of the consequences of their demands and keep on shouting "more more more"...

live economy isn't the issue at all, if you troubleshoot a bit.... It's that the starting economy is totally random in what factories and how many of them each faction has, at the game start.

So one start, all of ZYA may begin with only just one ore refinery module in their entire map, so you have a huge hull parts shortage.
Another start all of ZYA may begin with only one silicon refinery module in their entire map, so there's a massive turret components shortage.
Then the one time, everything spawns in sufficient quantity, and something still bottlenecks production but they're pumping out ships like crazy.

[Bozz11]

I never saw ZYA strong, every game I played they loose half their territory and never rebuild their shipyard , I never saw them with more than 2 destroyers, all the factions in this game are hard coded to have very bad military except HOP in beginning, I can supply them to death with tens of factories no faction will ever build anything like what HOP has in the beginning, hell even hop will never rebuild what they have in beginning once they loose all those big fleets, vanilla game is just bad in balancing because factions are too limited and so the xenons can grind the surrounding sectors with almost 0 resistance

in around 500 hours of playing I have never seen any faction go to war, never seen any factions have more than 5-6 destroyers ! the whole war mechanique is false advertisment in my opinion.

[zakaluka]

Here is another gamestart, I am having fairly consistent results.
In the opening, ZYA lost their entire defending fleet to the Argon push from Eleventh Hour at Zyarth X, and only pushed them back with re-inforcements.
They have hardly any hull part production, a total of 3 factories, and not enough traders moving Refined Metals to keep those 3 production modules going.

My involvement has been ONLY indirect - mainly a trade station in Family Nhuut trading just Hull parts and Refined metals. This keeps all the hull parts factories working and delivers hull parts to the shipyard right when they become available. https://imgur.com/LI6RxEw
Because I have filled that SINGLE market gap, covering the hull parts shortage, ZYA has been able to replenish each home sector with fighters & destroyers, 2-3 destroyers with a handful of frigs & fighters patrolling most sectors. When the first Xenon I pushed in I was concerned, but here's the fleet going back to patrol after they made short work of him. He only took out 1 ZYA station before meeting his demise. https://imgur.com/qhPIDg2

With a bit of poking around you can troubleshoot the ZYA economy and shore it up. With a tiny nudge you can get them back on their feet & make money along the way. This trade station cost about 2 mil, 6 traders is another 4mil. 6mil invested. No combat involvement, as in, I'm not personally helping ZYA defend anything with my own military assets. Those are hunting down and boarding argon targets for profit.

[GCU Grey Area]

all the factions in this game are hard coded to have very bad military except HOP in beginning, I can supply them to death with tens of factories no faction will ever build anything like what HOP has in the beginning

Have seen some fairly big fleets in my recent X4 games. Maybe not quite up to HOP standards, but still think this constitutes a decent enough TEL fleet:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/39chopkrlh93y ... 1.jpg?dl=0
Ignore the big green blob near the western gate (that's mine), just count the number of TEL destroyers on the ship list.

[dtpsprt]

I never saw ZYA strong, every game I played they loose half their territory and never rebuild their shipyard , I never saw them with more than 2 destroyers, all the factions in this game are hard coded to have very bad military except HOP in beginning, I can supply them to death with tens of factories no faction will ever build anything like what HOP has in the beginning, hell even hop will never rebuild what they have in beginning once they loose all those big fleets, vanilla game is just bad in balancing because factions are too limited and so the xenons can grind the surrounding sectors with almost 0 resistance

in around 500 hours of playing I have never seen any faction go to war, never seen any factions have more than 5-6 destroyers ! the whole war mechanique is false advertisment in my opinion.

Keep in mind that HOP is the only faction with all it's sectors connected, in close range and rich in resources. This allows them to build fast. The other factions, their sectors being scattered, need way more freighters and miners to keep their economy running, which are deducted from their ship quota. This is the reason they do not have (and never build) fleets like the HOP at start. The Split are in the worst condition as far as resources and scattering of sectors is concerned, so If the Xenon break through them in the beginning it takes a lot to lift them up...

The factions are already at war. ARG and ANT fight against HOP and ZYA, TEL sort of fight against HOP on the sly, PAR fight against HOP, and ZYA fight against ARG/ANT. That is not mentioning that they all fight the Xenon... Need more than that?