The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

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xant
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The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by xant » Wed, 2. Dec 20, 19:48

Building things. Everyone has done this, right? I don't think there's any player who hasn't at least built the PHQ docking bay. So I assume everyone knows what I'm talking about. The situation is something most people here know: you have a huge production of Claytronics and Hull Parts going as foundation for everything else. Without tens of thousands of building materials you would get nowhere.

So here I am, gradually expanding my huge factory, so that it may produce even more building materials. But as most of you also know, the amount of materials you need to build a dozen of Claytronics modules is quite high. Not too high, but high enough to keep a few transporters busy for some time.

This is where my woes began: keeping the Build Storage supplied without creating over a hundred transport commands by hand.
  • Attempt 1: "Repeat Orders"
My first attempt at delivering the first batch of 20000 Claytronics and five times that of Hull Parts was to create a Command Loop. Yes, the new feature in the beta. I told the transporter to get the material and transport it to the Build Storage. But it didn't work. After some time I learned that there's a bug (already fixed in the next build) with supplying build storages via the loop. Ok, can happen.
But here's my gripe with it: When I heard we get a loop command, I expected it to give me a basic command along the lines of

Code: Select all

"Load number N(1) of goods X at location A and unload number N(2) of goods X at location B - repeat"
What we got was

Code: Select all

"Buy number N(1) of goods X at location A for price Z(1) and sell all but amount N(3) (you don't tell how much to unload, but how much NOT to unload) at location B for min. price Z(2), but only if their budget allows it to buy it from you, even for internal trades - repeat"
Here we go again, dealing with station and build storage budgets for internal loops. In my case I somehow got it working for Hull Parts, but not for Claytronics, despite identical settings. So I needed another solution.
  • Attempt 2: "Mimic commander's behaviour"
Going by the letter of the command, it should mimic whatever the commanding ships does, right? At least that's what I expected. So when the commander is (manually) delivering 3 loads of Claytronics, I expected/hoped to see the subordinate ship to mimic that exact thing. But I hoped for too much, as those other four transporters just stood there, watching the commander making his rounds between the station and its build storage. So yeah, that also didn't work.
  • Attempt 3: "Trade for Build Storage"
Not the fanciest of all commands, but it should work at least. So I give 10M credits to my build storage, another 10M credits went to the station budget. Nevermind that I shouldn't need credits for internal trades in the first place, but whatever. The station commander has 4.5 stars, there's an active sell order on the station, set to lowest price, limited to my own faction. The build storage has an active buy order, highest price, limited to my own faction. Then I tell 4 empty M-sized transporters to "trade for build storage". Well... "searching for trades". That's it. All of them standing there, searching for trades. And searching. And searching... :shock:
  • Attempt 4: "Transfer wares with..."
That's the only reliable way of transferring goods between stations and build storages. Doing it manually. This is tedious beyond words, when all you have is a bunch of M-sized ships. 395 Claytronics per ship, 20000 Claytronics alone make 50 deliveries. But we have 100k Hull Parts too. And far more of everything in the future. Hundreds and hundreds of manual commands. Come on, really?


My (rhetorical) question is, why does it have to be so hard to keep your own build storage supplied? Even more so since it is the build storage of the station producing the needed materials in abundance. So I'd like to propose two very simple ideas to improve this important aspect of the game.

Idea 1: A checkbox in the build storage that reads "Use station storage if build storage is empty"
I mean, would it be so hard to implement that? Earlier we had Cargo Drones transporting those goods automatically, but it didn't work reliably enough. It was removed then, without giving us any replacement.

Idea 2: Expand upon the "Repeat Orders" command
Right now all we have is the buy/sell loop. It would help immensely if we also got a loop for the "Transfer wares with..." command that every ship already has. For internal trade loops this would be priceless.

Those two things would make my life (and I daresay that of many others) easier by a huge margin. One of the most tedious things ever is to transport many goods between my own stations and is has been kind of a nightmare up until now. A simple transport loop (without buy/sell, just transfer wares) and using station storage for building would really help.

Buzz2005
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by Buzz2005 » Wed, 2. Dec 20, 20:12

mimic only copies the default behavior not direct orders, thats why its not working

I never had a problem with "trade for build storage", I give the build plan all the money it wants and put all prices to 100% so they will buy at any price, claytronics and hull parts are always a highly needed ware for all factions so it may take a while to buy all, specially if the amount is high, of course it always good to have your own stations in trade range to help
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.

xant
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by xant » Wed, 2. Dec 20, 20:27

Buzz2005 wrote:
Wed, 2. Dec 20, 20:12
mimic only copies the default behavior not direct orders, thats why its not working
I know now, but I didn't when I first saw that command. My initial thought was it would copy whatever was in the targets command list. Well, I wouldn't mind if we had a command to do just that...
Buzz2005 wrote:
Wed, 2. Dec 20, 20:12
I never had a problem with "trade for build storage", I give the build plan all the money it wants and put all prices to 100% so they will buy at any price, claytronics and hull parts are always a highly needed ware for all factions so it may take a while to buy all, specially if the amount is high, of course it always good to have your own stations in trade range to help
As I said, I don't want to buy it, as I have all needed materials sitting in the storage of my own station. All I want is to transfer those huge amounts to the build storage. But the station refuses to trade with itself.

Buzz2005
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by Buzz2005 » Wed, 2. Dec 20, 21:02

yea that is limited for some reason and we dont know the limits or requirements, I had seen it only one time in like thousand of hours, hull parts transferred to same stations build storage, how and why idk, maybe put more cargo drones?
Fixed ships getting spawned away from ship configuration menu at resupply ships from automatically getting deployables.

Lord Crc
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by Lord Crc » Wed, 2. Dec 20, 23:04

I try to minimize my workload, so I just assign a few M traders to the manager for building, and set builder buy restrictions to my stations only. Finally I transfer a bunch of cash. Then I just forget it for a while.

It's not optimal but it gets the job done without micro. If you know you're going to build a lot of modules, do it in one go (ie before you hit save plan), then the buy order will be for all those modules, rather than just the one or two you added before saving. This will make the cargo ships do full loads for longer.

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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by Ezarkal » Wed, 2. Dec 20, 23:35

xant wrote:
Wed, 2. Dec 20, 19:48
  • Attempt 4: "Transfer wares with..."
That's the only reliable way of transferring goods between stations and build storages. Doing it manually. This is tedious beyond words, when all you have is a bunch of M-sized ships. 395 Claytronics per ship, 20000 Claytronics alone make 50 deliveries. But we have 100k Hull Parts too. And far more of everything in the future. Hundreds and hundreds of manual commands. Come on, really?
This is one of the few circumstances where L traders are worth using, as it is far less tedious to fill up your storages.
They are slower than M traders, but you are limited by the CV's building speed anyway. They should be able to keep up, unless you ship the construction material from the other end of the galaxy.



Personally, I just give credits to the manager and let him buy most of the stuff. I don't even bother assigning trades for building, and just let NPCs fill it up.
Once 90-95% of the wares are in, I finish up with a few manual orders. I will of course intervene if a critical ware is simply not delivered because of shortages in that area of the galaxy.

You can still limit trades with NPCs for certain wares and force to buy from your own stations. I never tried this, though, so maybe you'll need to assign traders for this to work. :S


This method turns out to be a bit more expensive, but not by much. Sure, you buy the wares for construction at a high price, but your stations will get to sell the wares that you would otherwise have used for construction. You lose a bit of margin, but not that much. Plus, you can always set the buying price for the building storage if you want to minimize losses, too. And eventually, you get to a point where you're so flooded by credits that a few million more for a station is pretty much irrelevant.
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oddible
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by oddible » Thu, 3. Dec 20, 03:05

Trade for Build Storage will use your own stock. It still buys it but the money just moves from the Build account to the Station account.

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Nort The Fragrent
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by Nort The Fragrent » Thu, 3. Dec 20, 04:18

Building is easy as,
Give it heaps of loot, set the build ship in place and be on your way.
The build happens. easy.
Whats all the fuss about?

xant
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by xant » Thu, 3. Dec 20, 09:21

If fills my heart with boundless joy to hear that the AI works for most people. Maybe this overflow of happiness will carry me through my 300 manual orders...

I know that it can work, as it sometimes did for me, but now it doesn't. And it's not the first time. The lack of certain functionalities becomes apparent in this case.

Using a stations stored building materials from a build storage and a transfer wares loop in addition to the already existing buy/sell loop - are those wishes really so outlandish and unneeded?

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grapedog
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Re: The woes of build storages [Beta 4.0, suggestion]

Post by grapedog » Thu, 3. Dec 20, 09:58

If you have a large factory already, that pumped out 20k claytronics and 100k hull parts... then you have enough money to buy 2 or 3 L freighters to move goods around.

Ill grant you that 150 manual orders isn't fun, but you're choosing to build mega factories, and choosing to use M freighters to move massive amount of materials.

Choose to buy some L freighters and save yourself some heartache.

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