I am very sad for the future of X4

[Roeleveld]

How can you say that the most subscribed mods are not fixes to the game.
IN the top 10 are 5 mods that change Wars and the economy. The rest add ships since the variety right now is so low. Why do we need a Tern and a Vulture that are the same ships since they never implemented solid/liquid trade ships. Give us combat ship variety and Make Bombers useful.

And the best mods after that are the ones that Level you pilots because when you have 20k personal why should I have to manually click on all of them to level since leveling is still hot garbage.

Well, as I pointed out, 4 of those mods are part of a single package, so it's disingenuous to count them separately, and besides they also slow everything down in the late game because they eat CPU. I don't consider Faction Enhancer four separate mods, and I don't consider a fix withen it breaks at least as much as it fixes.

There are currently 154 different ships in the game, maybe half of them are fully non-duplicates. That's still a fair number of ships. The ones that are added by the ship mod are pretty good, though it's debatable whether they fit the design of X4.

The issue with leveling NPCs comes down to conflicts in game philosophy. The people who tend to be upset about the slow leveling of NPCs are the ones who want to race to the late game. Most of these pilot leveling mods will get you there in just a couple of hours. But EGO clearly wants the game to play more slowly than that, and doesn't want players to be able to automate everything right from the jump. And so using a speed-leveling mod isn't "fixing" the game, it's *changing* the game. NPC leveling in vanilla isn't broken, it's just not as quick as some people would like. There is a difference, though I'm surprised how few people are able to see it.

For reality, the game is actually too fast.
I mean, how realistic is it that in the first 2 hours after getting your first tiny ship, you can end up with a lot of mining vessels, seen nearly the whole map, helped in a prison break, built a few factories and end up being the only living individual that can teleport across sectors?

[kmunoz]

I did use mods for older titles so that helped (especially XR ). But for X4 I just can't get in to it... X3/XR had more fighting missions to keep me engaged while I do trading or build my empire... X4 has some of them but I find them boring and tedious. For example hunting M traider 10 sectors away (without jumpdrive). Or lack of defense of station missions. I think they should just add mindless pirates and bring those old missions back. Bulletin board would be nice too...

I'm hopeful that there will be more diverse combat missions added in the future. They did add sector patrol missions, and there are the beginnings of station defense missions (right now they're patrol missions confined to station areas). Pirate activity seems to have been increased as well.

I'm not sure a bulletin board would be as useful in X4 as it was in X3 given that missions appear in an aggregated list on the map. Maybe they could make it so that you can see all the missions available throughout the galaxy, but I expect the devs would be resistant to that idea since it would reduce the need for the player to travel from sector to sector.

It's been pretty clear to me that the devs were very intentional in their scaling back of the kinds of automation/hands-off stuff, compared to X3. Tying complex automations to pilot skill, and making sure that pilot skill doesn't max out immediately. Making SETA something you have to construct rather than simply buy. Making mining a two-step process (separate asteroid mining first, then aggregating the products into a selling station).

X3 became very boring for me after a while because I didn't actually have to *do* anything. Everything could be done for me, almost without any input on my end. What I like about X4 is that I can spend a really long time in the early and mid game and not lose interest. I do have to make my own goals sometimes, like choosing to defend stations that are being swarmed by Xenon, but I feel it's an acceptable tradeoff for not having mechanisms optimized to a hands-off approach.

[kmunoz]

For reality, the game is actually too fast.
I mean, how realistic is it that in the first 2 hours after getting your first tiny ship, you can end up with a lot of mining vessels, seen nearly the whole map, helped in a prison break, built a few factories and end up being the only living individual that can teleport across sectors?

No joke, I think I would love to have a mod that nukes all of the automation in the game and forces you to issue commands directly to your pilots.

There are only two things I like about Elite Dangerous: the size of the map, and the "solo trucker" vibe. I've thought about trying to emulate that feel in X4 by playing a save where I stick to one ship with maybe a few escorts, and do nothing but mining and/or trading *myself*. (I don't think X4 should be anything like that in vanilla - just saying I would enjoy a highly constrained playthrough as a challenge.)

[Mr.Killer]

I feel your anger but I cannot understand why you stepped in to write it. At best, you would fell from a lot of people defending egosoft, at worst you would just piss off egosoft team and people around here, which will also generate more anger for you. Congratulation on your endless loop (AI bug?!).

You are not happy with a game? Leave it be. You should know the drill now, play the game, stop it, come back later and check for the changes. You obviously love the X-Universe but you shouldn't feel betrayed or stabbed or whatever by egosoft team decisions. After all, it's their game. Yes, it's for players, fan base, customers if you prefer, but ultimately it's their game. And they love it. It's obvious how much they love it.

What I would love you to see is that those 25 or so people are doing their best for X4 and its future. AI is hard to program in every game. It's harder when you have to make them think in 3D because AI can move in x, y and z axis and not only on a floor. It also means that collision avoidance is harder to manage without killing the CPU. CPU that is busy making you rich with your stations, traders or is trying to compute your war fleet actions. I'm myself a bit angry at you for writing such a post where I can feel your anger. Please step back from the game and try to take a breather to think about all of this. Think about the good people that are making the game which is not a AAA game.

Love this game like you love someone: with its qualities and flaws and its ability to evolve to be better.

@Lyam, you are not wrong in what you write here, and to ease your mind, I have bought all versions of X-games, even when there was no internet, I hold the copies nicely on my shelf (matter of speaking).
I am absolutely aware of what programming is, what they have to do to make things work, I did my fair share of programming back in the late 80's too, but it is not about the ability of the team, it is I think too much things on their plate so that less important things keep falling of, matter of speaking...
I know that the most urgent things gets a high priority, a less problematic thing in the software, while it still kinda works, "ah, we can do that later..."
So, If we, you, me, all the other fans of the X-games, say nothing, then probably not so soon in the future but way further into the future, these kinda little problems could be fixed, if they are still aware of them.

Programming is one thing, Testing is the other thing, and if you know the diagram of making coffee could get you a lot more ways to test software (this is one of the examples I used when teaching programming, from water in the tank, power that comes from the socket, coffee in the filter, etc. and that in a schematic diagram so that there is always a way and never runs into a dead end.) We don't want dead ends in software....

Even thoroughly extensive testing is a long process, and then it still can go different the next time, because of the hardware factor, the human factor, etc...

Believe me, I love this game, it is still my biggest number one game of all times, maybe that is why I was worried, afraid that it would never be close to perfect, because that is what I would surely like to see.
So, only lots of respect to the crew of EGOSOFT, they make great things over there, and I feel it is my job not to harras, nag, curse, being personal towards people, but it sometimes looks that way, I am totally honest here, I have made some mistakes yes, SORRY for those, but I mean the best of the best for this game.


So Lyam, I added this post because I was sad, depressed, (have been and now I hope i'll be better) and could not understand why no one felt the same, and reactions waving away my problems did not help either, because, why am I having this problem and someone else not? How is that possible? we are playing the same game , are we not??

Do not take anything here personal, I am not here to make my arguing personal and it never is personal, not to you or any other person in this forum and outside. I am sorry if I made you a bit angry, that was not my intention, and I hope you can forgive my mistake.

Lets have fun...

[jlehtone]

By chance, did you pay money to obtain X4 vanilla?

[jlehtone]

If they keep their new Mining code in 4.0 I'll be very sad for the state of the game. It broke the mining economy.

Does that refer to:

While replenishment of gases has not changed in the beta, a bug was fixed that allowed miners to sometimes get resources in their storage even if the area in which they were mining was completely depleted.

That sounds analog to building houses with lots of asbestos and then suddenly running out of business because asbestos is declared illegal (for it was unhealthy all along).

A bug that makes everything look ok is really nasty.

[BaronVerde]

Just wanted to add, because it was mentioned that collision detection in 3D is a CPU intensive thing, that this generally speaking not true on today's CPUs, with the toolset of data structures and algorithms at hand and not even considering offloading parallelizable work to the GPU. I strongly doubt game physics are the limiting element in X4 given how rudimentary they seem to be.

Pathfinding and collision detection in X4 are broken to an extent that it is simply shut off in certain situations and things are allowed to occupy the same space at the same time, or end up inside of each other with no immediate way out, player falling through the deck, and so on. For me that destroys a lot of ... how's the magic word ... 'immersion' and I feel a bit like being messed with, and I don't really see why it must be that way, given that others can do it right and all the work that has been done and published in the area.

[dtpsprt]

Just wanted to add, because it was mentioned that collision detection in 3D is a CPU intensive thing, that this generally speaking not true on today's CPUs, with the toolset of data structures and algorithms at hand and not even considering offloading parallelizable work to the GPU. I strongly doubt game physics are the limiting element in X4 given how rudimentary they seem to be.

Pathfinding and collision detection in X4 are broken to an extent that it is simply shut off in certain situations and things are allowed to occupy the same space at the same time, or end up inside of each other with no immediate way out, player falling through the deck, and so on. For me that destroys a lot of ... how's the magic word ... 'immersion' and I feel a bit like being messed with, and I don't really see why it must be that way, given that others can do it right and all the work that has been done and published in the area.

What do you mean by that? immersion means getting into something... so there you have it... The player and his/hers ship cannot be more immersed than that.
Makes me wonder, all these people that were playing before X4, didn't they took as a given that the aspects and mechanics of the previous X games should be implemented first in this one (given the engine change) and only after that additions/enhancements should be made?

[BaronVerde]

What do you mean by that? immersion means getting into something... so there you have it... The player and his/hers ship cannot be more immersed than that.
Makes me wonder, all these people that were playing before X4, didn't they took as a given that the aspects and mechanics of the previous X games should be implemented first in this one (given the engine change) and only after that additions/enhancements should be made?

What I wrote: I find it difficult to get into a game of the simulation-genre that can't even rudimentary find a way around obstacles and that gives up calculating collisons and lets things fly thorugh each other. That collides (pun) with my past experience in flight- and space simulation and even with my own tinkering with the matter.

I know I know, some might rightfully say that then I should just shut up and go elsewhere, but I've paid a few bucks and I think I can exercise some criticism here, in the hope it may lead to improvement ... path to enlightenment ... expecting good things

[arquebusx]

What I wrote: I find it difficult to get into a game of the simulation-genre that can't even rudimentary find a way around obstacles and that gives up calculating collisons and lets things fly thorugh each other. That collides (pun) with my past experience in flight- and space simulation and even with my own tinkering with the matter.

I feel like the idea of having the AI/autopilot navigate you through an asteroid field is goofy anyway, especially since the fields are so narrow. Why not just have the autopilot moving you off the plane of the field before activating travel drive? And that's not just a technical solution to a game problem - it's easily an in-universe solution to what would certainly be a real problem in the X-universe - namely the risk involved in letting a machine pilot you through physical hazards. Just doesn't seem reasonable when the alternative (flying out of the field first) is so easy to do, and much safer (safer in-universe, not just in the game).

[BaronVerde]

I feel like the idea of having the AI/autopilot navigate you through an asteroid field is goofy anyway, especially since the fields are so narrow. Why not just have the autopilot moving you off the plane of the field before activating travel drive? And that's not just a technical solution to a game problem - it's easily an in-universe solution to what would certainly be a real problem in the X-universe - namely the risk involved in letting a machine pilot you through physical hazards. Just doesn't seem reasonable when the alternative (flying out of the field first) is so easy to do, and much safer (safer in-universe, not just in the game).

It wouldn't be a problem to find a nice and smooth curve through a field at least for a ship travelling at low velocity, expecially since there are no actual physical constraints involved like there would be for an aerodramatically controlled plane, or a real space ship obeying some physics. And in some cases ships are just drawn along magically anyway, e.g. between two gates that lie close or when the autopilot is activated close to a gate or a highway.

You're right ofc, that approach isn't necessarily necessary and flying around would be absolutely plausible. Determining a bounding volume of a dense field with clear boundaries and finding a way around is a near-trivial task which would be an approach even when individual roids are spawned on sight but inside the field boundaries. Somehow hard to understand that it isn't done that way ...

[dtpsprt]

What I wrote: I find it difficult to get into a game of the simulation-genre that can't even rudimentary find a way around obstacles and that gives up calculating collisons and lets things fly thorugh each other. That collides (pun) with my past experience in flight- and space simulation and even with my own tinkering with the matter.

I know I know, some might rightfully say that then I should just shut up and go elsewhere, but I've paid a few bucks and I think I can exercise some criticism here, in the hope it may lead to improvement ... path to enlightenment ... expecting good things

Of course I was joking an making an "immersion" pun mostly against Egosoft. Bad news is that X4 is a simulation but not a space flight one. Just a business/management one...

[dtpsprt]

It wouldn't be a problem to find a nice and smooth curve through a field at least for a ship travelling at low velocity, expecially since there are no actual physical constraints involved like there would be for an aerodramatically controlled plane, or a real space ship obeying some physics. And in some cases ships are just drawn along magically anyway, e.g. between two gates that lie close or when the autopilot is activated close to a gate or a highway.

You're right ofc, that approach isn't necessarily necessary and flying around would be absolutely plausible. Determining a bounding volume of a dense field with clear boundaries and finding a way around is a near-trivial task which would be an approach even when individual roids are spawned on sight but inside the field boundaries. Somehow hard to understand that it isn't done that way ...

Ummm... actually... I have it from "official" (typing) fingers that the X Universe is not a vacuum. It's what's called "liquid space", which means that ships actually behave like submarines on Earth. I just wonder why the "mechanic" (turn 60 degrees away from asteroid - accelerate a bit - resume course - rinse and repeat until you get past the asteroid) used in previous X games (mostly successfully) was not implemented in X4 too...

[Nikola515]

I'm hopeful that there will be more diverse combat missions added in the future. They did add sector patrol missions, and there are the beginnings of station defense missions (right now they're patrol missions confined to station areas). Pirate activity seems to have been increased as well.

I'm not sure a bulletin board would be as useful in X4 as it was in X3 given that missions appear in an aggregated list on the map. Maybe they could make it so that you can see all the missions available throughout the galaxy, but I expect the devs would be resistant to that idea since it would reduce the need for the player to travel from sector to sector.

It's been pretty clear to me that the devs were very intentional in their scaling back of the kinds of automation/hands-off stuff, compared to X3. Tying complex automations to pilot skill, and making sure that pilot skill doesn't max out immediately. Making SETA something you have to construct rather than simply buy. Making mining a two-step process (separate asteroid mining first, then aggregating the products into a selling station).

X3 became very boring for me after a while because I didn't actually have to *do* anything. Everything could be done for me, almost without any input on my end. What I like about X4 is that I can spend a really long time in the early and mid game and not lose interest. I do have to make my own goals sometimes, like choosing to defend stations that are being swarmed by Xenon, but I feel it's an acceptable tradeoff for not having mechanisms optimized to a hands-off approach.

It is not about diversity of missions but rather how they are implemented in game. X4 is using existing assets in game (ships that are already in game) while X3/XR would just spawn fleet/ship out of thin air. Also they had pirate faction that we can attack without damaging reputation with other factions...

I was thinking more like XR menu/board where we can see all missions (except illegal) when we enter sector. Flying station to station just to see missions gets annoying quick.

I agree about SETA and it is cheat in my opinion as we have fast travel boosters to go faster. I like to take my time building empire but some people like to speed things up and I'm ok with that ( I don't have to use it if I don't want to).

I always always find something to do in older titles regardless where in game I was when it comes to older titles. For example in XR I started with developing DV economy and after completing that goal I had fleet of around 20 captured pirate Titurel's that I used for selling all of my surplus materials to OL. While I was waiting for those orders to be finish I would take kill boos or defend station missions to kill boredom.

X4 economy is actually excellent and I like it. Ships design is ok and they are practical for what you need to you use them for (they are still ugly though). AI needs a lots of work especially trading.... I had L ships selling 600 E-cells to stations that was empty and my stations was full (XR still has same problem). My point is that X4 is good game and it has improved in a lots of ways, but to me missions are not as fun for the reason posted above. Going to war will solve that problem but I like to trade too. Older titles give me choices and it didn't force me to do or if it did I had alternative. For example in XR we had to fight PMC but I had OL where I cold trade without worrying for my ships being hunted.

[jlehtone]

It is not about diversity of missions but rather how they are implemented in game. X4 is using existing assets in game (ships that are already in game) while X3/XR would just spawn fleet/ship out of thin air. Also they had pirate faction that we can attack without damaging reputation with other factions...

I was thinking more like XR menu/board where we can see all missions (except illegal) when we enter sector. Flying station to station just to see missions gets annoying quick.

Flying station to station ... in X2 and X3R you had to dock into each station in order to see whether there were any missions. The "spot from any distance and accept from 25/50km" of X3TC/AP,X4 is much better.
Furthermore, the guild/war missions are all on a menu when you enter sector.

You can attack X4 SCA and FAF without damaging reputation with anyone else.

[dtpsprt]

[Flying station to station ... in X2 and X3R you had to dock into each station in order to see whether there were any missions. The "spot from any distance and accept from 25/50km" of X3TC/AP,X4 is much better.
Furthermore, the guild/war missions are all on a menu when you enter sector.

You can attack X4 SCA and FAF without damaging reputation with anyone else.

Ahemmm... "spot from any distance and accept from 25 km" does not apply for X4 (which is what matters most in this forum), Besides the map with the stations was really transparent and occupied about 1/3 of the screen in X3 TC/AP instead of being practically opaque and filling the screen in X4. I'm sick and tired of missions showing in the map but not appearing in the missions tab (so I can check them in a quick glance)!!! Either they do the moment they are created or they don't and there is no need for a missions tab!!! Even "funnier" is what happens a lot in Beta 7 with more than half the missions expiring the moment you accept them.

Again... are we supposed to be flying ships in space or maps dear Egosoft?

EDIT: All missions of a sector were appearing instantly in X4 V2.60

[jlehtone]

Ahemmm... "spot from any distance and accept from 25 km" does not apply for X4

True. You can tell (in X4 3.30 HF2) from any distance whether a station has any missions by targeting that station and you can take the mission once you're within 50 km of that station.

[kmunoz]

I was thinking more like XR menu/board where we can see all missions (except illegal) when we enter sector. Flying station to station just to see missions gets annoying quick.

You don't have to fly station to station to see missions...? If you enter a sector, missions that are visible to you appear in the mission list on the left side of the map. And if you have satellites in a sector you'll see the missions that are too far from your own passive scanner range.

That said I would like to see missions available in other sectors.

[Nikola515]

I was thinking more like XR menu/board where we can see all missions (except illegal) when we enter sector. Flying station to station just to see missions gets annoying quick.

You don't have to fly station to station to see missions...? If you enter a sector, missions that are visible to you appear in the mission list on the left side of the map. And if you have satellites in a sector you'll see the missions that are too far from your own passive scanner range.

That said I would like to see missions available in other sectors.

I haven't played X4 for almost year and a half (it seems lots have changed ).... So you can now place satellites to increase missions vision range? I might give it shot again after this new DLC. Thanks for info

Maybe they should add some missions from other sectors but not all of them. It would be overkill in my opinion... Or perhaps they could add them as a reward when you max out reputation with faction ( similar to station trading prices).

[surferx]

For reality, the game is actually too fast.
I mean, how realistic is it that in the first 2 hours after getting your first tiny ship, you can end up with a lot of mining vessels, seen nearly the whole map, helped in a prison break, built a few factories and end up being the only living individual that can teleport across sectors?

Credits add up so fast, it is immersion breaking. This is why I don't do crystal mining in my games. I remember how excited I was in X2 when Elena Kho gave me her old Mercury trader to get started. Yes it took a while of just finding deals and trading goods, but was still entertaining which is what a video game should do. If you could just fly over to an asteroid, mine some crystals and tell Elena "Nah, I'm good. I'll just buy a couple of new trade ships fully loaded out," I'm afraid the whole plot line for X2 would be ruined. IMO they forgot a lot of good things from X2 and X3 in favor of rapid progression.