Shipyard prices - I'm being scammed

[Imperial Good]

From what I can tell the nerf that was made should be to how many ships the NPC buys, and not how much they pay for them. NPCs should much rather prefer buying from themselves rather than the player even if the player could build their ship for them right now. Combined with the huge nerf to mining this makes selling a lot of ships to the NPC a lot more difficult, and slows how fast you get money.

[dcarver]

WOW! I didn't realize the Shipyard change.... and I've been following the BETA Very closely, or so I thought !!! Sneaky X4, sneaky! I've been dealing with the 'Miners' changes and paying attention to that, that set me back a lot of time.

To be clear, I started my 2nd new game around Beta start. I have 980mil in assets (borrowed L ships) and 3 18:38 play time (90 hours). Got the self-sustaining shipyard around 72 hours of legit play (stealing counts).

I started as SPLIT, and did everything legit... except for MULE trader script (Eggosoft, hint here <-).
I stole all my station blueprints using EMP, and have been 'borrowing' SCA Large destroyers and other L traders, to sell for 8-15mil to build all the stations I needed to supply a shipyard. You can do this using 1 balaur and 3-4 traders with 20 marines each, although easier in in a rattlesnake... which I was also able to 'borrow' in the same way, just a larger pool of marines.

EGOSOFT - Don't change the game because a couple people got to a Billon. If you want a money sync, then give us enemy sectors to fight, like in X3, that drop unique wares. Also, you could support the idea of multiple new game starts and make that easier for NG+, like making blueprints global! My goal was to make money from my S/M shipyard to then afford a Large self-sustaining shipyard and then see how I can effect the faction balances, and play the game like a simulator. OH, I even created 20 separate stations so I could level my traders (which didn't work at all, wth) which costs a lot more. I'm thinking your ships prices need lowering, not player warf, especially Med Fighters. Or were you planning that shipyards were not for profit, only to save on the cost of ships?

Thanks! I'm done rambling for now.

[dcarver]

One thing I just found out is that you need to purchase the blueprints for the factions to buy the ships. Documented?

I was under the impression that these would just show up as Unknown during building and the faction could still build anything. Something I didn't do in this 2nd play-through. I recently bought a lot of S/M blueprints and I'm seeing bigger numbers, and a Lot More Sales.

Thanks for the info Captain Collins!

[Imperial Good]

One thing I just found out is that you need to purchase the blueprints for the factions to buy the ships. Documented?

Yes this has always been intended and has mostly been the case. Early on when ship building mechanics were first added to X4 this was not the case due to bugs, but these were fixed over time. As far as I am aware they were all fixed by the time 3.00 (Split Vendetta) went live.

[ApoxNM]

Are you playing the beta? The devs had announced their intention to nerf shipyard income. Maybe this is part of that effort?

Seriously?

Why in the world are they nerfing everything?

Making a game a grindfest is not something enjoyable.

To be able to build an operational wharf from the a new save you need 20 rep with a faction and ~150m credits. I’ve got both in a new 4.0 b7 save within ~7h of playing the game (I was somewhat slow). Currently, with 3.30, once you’ve got a wharf going you basically print money way faster than you could ever spend. You basically skip all early and mid game and go straight into “oh let’s order 200 fully equipped rattlesnakes because I can”. There is no progression at all.

Besides that, most people build their wharfs self sufficient which makes selling ships a 100% profit. As soon as you produce Hull parts, Claytronics and Energy cells on your own, you basically don’t need any credits. Factions will order ships from you constantly and almost forever. The only and finite sink for credits are ship/equipment blueprints and the split plots. The 4b credit requirements were introduced as a result of those highly profitable wharfs/shipyards.

Absolutely do not agree. I am in a game about 60 hours in, I just got my S/M wharf and it worked well for a while, till all ship slots from the split were filled. It doesn't generate a lot of money anymore.
I still can't afford an L wharf or any L ship blueprint for that matter. Man it costs about 800 mil to get all of it, or even more.

Making large sums of money is easy if you have figured out the best strategy and just follow it every time, that's boring. I like trying new things and different set ups. For me the grindfest is not enjoyable and if you think making money is too easy, just download mods, there are some that make it a lot harder.

[Y-llian]

Making large sums of money is easy if you have figured out the best strategy and just follow it every time, that's boring. I like trying new things and different set ups.

Agreed. The “nerf” as it’s now seems to disenfranchise those players who don’t go around capping ships by the dozens. I always trade my way up... One of X4 strengths is that it’s a fully simulated economy. It can take a huge investment in time and credits to obtain blueprints and then build the infrastructure to run a shipyard. The pay off was that I’ll be able to make good money after that effort.

You should be able to get a return on your investment and make a decent profit playing the economy of the game. Perhaps it should be way harder to cap ships, with more severe rep consequences if the concern was, that players got to the top tier shipyard modules that way too quickly. I don’t know...

Artificially dampening demand for player built ships to the extent we have now feels somewhat skewed against those players who “play” the game economy. For some of us, that is the game and nerfing demand goes against the grain of a fully simulated demand/supply economy.

I hope that Ego will look at this again and find a solution that balances play styles in a more equitable manner.

[jlehtone]

Perhaps it should be way harder to cap ships, with more severe rep consequences if the concern was, that players got to the top tier shipyard modules that way too quickly. I don’t know...

How about: Make it impossible to sell ships. The only exception being delivery of ships that missions request.

(I already play that way, so it would not affect me ... )

[Y-llian]

Perhaps it should be way harder to cap ships, with more severe rep consequences if the concern was, that players got to the top tier shipyard modules that way too quickly. I don’t know...

How about: Make it impossible to sell ships. The only exception being delivery of ships that missions request.

(I already play that way, so it would not affect me ... )

I wouldn't want players who enjoy capping to be disenfranchised to this extent, no. It's been a staple of X-games for a long time, but capping, I'd suggest, is way too easy right now with little or no consequences. That said, my main point really was that the current artificial demand nerf needs some further thought.

[GCU Grey Area]

The “nerf” as it’s now seems to disenfranchise those players who don’t go around capping ships by the dozens. I always trade my way up...

I play the game the same way; heavy focus on trade in the early game, then move onto building stations of my own. Problem with shipyards was that they represented an orders of magnitude shift in profitability. When you have a single station that brings in 100s of millions per hour it makes any other source of revenue utterly irrelevant. What's the point of sending out a freighter on a 'high value' trade run (which may bring in around a million in profits) if a shipyard can make 100x as much before that freighter has even reached it's destination? Had a shipyard in my 3.0 Argon game. It utterly ruined the Trade aspect of that particular game. I ended that game just a few days later & started a new one - it just wasn't fun anymore. Have not built one in either of my subsequent games for precisely this reason. Might be able to reconsider that for my Terran game if the changes to shipyards go far enough.

[jlehtone]

Problem with shipyards was that they represented an orders of magnitude shift in profitability. When you have a single station that brings in 100s of millions per hour it makes any other source of revenue utterly irrelevant. What's the point of sending out a freighter on a 'high value' trade run (which may bring in around a million in profits) if a shipyard can make 100x as much before that freighter has even reached it's destination?

In other words, there is a question about balance. If your options are to toil as a slave or to be the Emperor, who would not choose the Emperor? If being Emperor would be just one of many roughly equivalent options, then you would have a choice. Sure, if you have to backstab half of the Senate (on top of normal slave duties) in order to get into the Emperor's seat, then you do expect some benefits and not that the Emperor is just another slave with same mundane chores as everyone else.

my main point really was that the current artificial demand nerf needs some further thought.

Frankly (albeit mostly due to my playstyle), I'm not worried about the player, but the NPC.

The NPC buy as many ships as they are allowed from anywhere that they can. How much will the new procurement restrictions affect the NPC fleets? There are tales of almost extinct factions that cling to life only by the services of player 'yards. If that lifeline will be cut thin, then how does that affect global politics?

[GCU Grey Area]

In other words, there is a question about balance. If your options are to toil as a slave or to be the Emperor, who would not choose the Emperor?

Definitely a question of balance. However, feel you're presenting a false dichotomy. Prefer to play the game as an industrial magnate who becomes wealthy by first shipping stuff around, then by building stations to make the stuff myself. Definitely prefer that style of play to your emperor who becomes absurdly wealthy by doing nothing at all (i.e. passive income in the billions per day).

Frankly (albeit mostly due to my playstyle), I'm not worried about the player, but the NPC.

The NPC buy as many ships as they are allowed from anywhere that they can. How much will the new procurement restrictions affect the NPC fleets? There are tales of almost extinct factions that cling to life only by the services of player 'yards. If that lifeline will be cut thin, then how does that affect global politics?

Do have some concerns about this too. The type of change that has been implemented is not exactly the one I'd have preferred. My preference would have been to unlock the lower end of the 'construction prices for other factions' slider, so I could set it below 50% & sell ships to the NPC factions at cost. Made a thread about this a while ago. As I recall it was a rather unpopular idea which sank very quickly. Only responses I remember it getting were along the lines of I was playing the game wrong by not setting that slider to 150% & gouging the NPCs for every credit I could get.

[BigBANGtheory]

To be able to build an operational wharf from the a new save you need 20 rep with a faction and ~150m credits. I’ve got both in a new 4.0 b7 save within ~7h of playing the game (I was somewhat slow). Currently, with 3.30, once you’ve got a wharf going you basically print money way faster than you could ever spend. You basically skip all early and mid game and go straight into “oh let’s order 200 fully equipped rattlesnakes because I can”. There is no progression at all.

Besides that, most people build their wharfs self sufficient which makes selling ships a 100% profit. As soon as you produce Hull parts, Claytronics and Energy cells on your own, you basically don’t need any credits. Factions will order ships from you constantly and almost forever. The only and finite sink for credits are ship/equipment blueprints and the split plots. The 4b credit requirements were introduced as a result of those highly profitable wharfs/shipyards.

I would argue that you had to go through a ton of progression to be armed with the knowledge on how to setup a Warf complex quickly and you are simply choosing to skip 'that which you have done in previous games' during a new game start. There is no way a new player would know how to do that unless they've followed some prescriptive guide in which case its because they wanted that outcome.

According to the Steam achievements less than 17% have earned in excess of 1B cr, and only 9% have built more than 10 stations so that gives you an idea of the scale of the problem. So I kind of agree with your point but at the same time its not that bad it really only effects knowledgeable players who have already spent a long time getting there imho.

[jlehtone]

According to the Steam achievements less than 17% have earned in excess of 1B cr, and only 9% have built more than 10 stations so that gives you an idea of the scale of the problem. So I kind of agree with your point but at the same time its not that bad it really only effects knowledgeable players who have already spent a long time getting there imho.

What does Steam count? Not nosteam, GOG, modded, etc, I presume. But it does count brief testers, who uninstall promptly?
A good Teladi would never have 1B cr loitering around, for they reinvest ASAP. (But that gets hard without good sinks.)
What counts as "Construct a Station"? What if your first station is self-sufficient Wharf? Will you build many more?
Does three playthroughs with six stations in each count as 6 or 18?

Still, builders and billionaires are big compared to venture capitalists (who are nevertheless quite vocal):

Send a ship on a venture. 5.2%

[Y-llian]

The “nerf” as it’s now seems to disenfranchise those players who don’t go around capping ships by the dozens. I always trade my way up...

I play the game the same way; heavy focus on trade in the early game, then move onto building stations of my own. Problem with shipyards was that they represented an orders of magnitude shift in profitability. When you have a single station that brings in 100s of millions per hour it makes any other source of revenue utterly irrelevant. What's the point of sending out a freighter on a 'high value' trade run (which may bring in around a million in profits) if a shipyard can make 100x as much before that freighter has even reached it's destination? Had a shipyard in my 3.0 Argon game. It utterly ruined the Trade aspect of that particular game. I ended that game just a few days later & started a new one - it just wasn't fun anymore. Have not built one in either of my subsequent games for precisely this reason. Might be able to reconsider that for my Terran game if the changes to shipyards go far enough.

Thanks for the considered reply and I agree, that shipyards did turn into a bit of a money mill. I’m not opposed to this being balanced. But, respectfully, the solution to just artificially dampen demand feels like a bit of hack rather than a fully realised “fix” and antithetical to the premise of a simulated supply/demand economy. Of course, I could be wrong here, I’m not a dev after all but that’s my perspective as a long-term player.

Might a more fruitful exercise not be to look at the profit margins in the production chain as a whole? Could it be that ships are maybe too profitable because there are imbalances in the chain?

I also share the concerns that the demand nerf makes it harder for players to support NPC ship building. I always find the Argon needs quite a bit of help, for example.

[jlehtone]

I also share the concerns that the demand nerf makes it harder for players to support NPC ship building. I always find the Argon needs quite a bit of help, for example.

I have only one game and it was HOP and ZYA that ran short on ships. I have supported them (without selling a single ship). Now Xenon are running out of ships. I suspect that building a Wharf to support Xenon is not good business.

[BigBANGtheory]

I also share the concerns that the demand nerf makes it harder for players to support NPC ship building. I always find the Argon needs quite a bit of help, for example.

Its a hard one to call, my first proper game attempt in June 2020 I did relatively little to help Argon and ZYA and they got totally wrecked by other factions.

More recently on a new start v3.3 I took early steps and built/sold ships to races I wanted to support. Its been very effective to the point the factions themselves are pushing back quite heavily on the Xenon reclaiming sectors lost in the early game. Its arguably been so effective that the Xenon pose little threat atm unless they are building up somewhere I haven't noticed.

The long and short of it is I think adjustments like these will make it tougher for new players, but they will learn and adapt or accept defeat where as experienced players will find a way because the player can grow to such a power house its just a question of timing as to when you go on the offensive or just sit back protect your own assets and watch things play out.

[jlehtone]

The long and short of it is I think adjustments like these will make it tougher for new players, ...

Does this?

The game has clearly two states:
1. Player does not have Wharf
2. Player has Wharf

Every game starts in state #1. Every player has to gather resources (reputation, credits, wares) in order to get into state #2. Considerable amount of resources.

A new player, by definition, has never had her game in state #2, yet. Requirements of getting into state #2 have not changed due to profits that you make in state #2.

IMHO, this affects experienced players more. Those, who start a new playthrough with the plan:
1. Dash to state #2
2. Get big credits quick
3. Do what I intend to do in this playthrough

[GCU Grey Area]

More recently on a new start v3.3 I took early steps and built/sold ships to races I wanted to support. Its been very effective to the point the factions themselves are pushing back quite heavily on the Xenon reclaiming sectors lost in the early game. Its arguably been so effective that the Xenon pose little threat atm unless they are building up somewhere I haven't noticed.

Shipyards & wharves are not essential for this. Don't have any in my game, at least none which make ships (just one wharf, purely to make terraforming drones, it has never made a single ship). Nevertheless the factions I've been helping are thriving, ZYA in particular.

This is my current map: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9nn75pjl9jybq ... 1.jpg?dl=0. At one point they were down to just 4 sectors (Zyarth's Dominion & Family Nhuut), they currently own 17. They also now have a significant fleet, with at least 25-30 Rattlesnakes that I'm aware of (don't know how many more they may have in the former FRF sectors - don't have many satellites in the region).

Main help I provided were 9 auto-trading Buffaloes & 21 auto-miners (15 Chthonios mineral & 6 Wyvern gas) blacklisted to only trade with ZYA stations & some defence fleets on my own to protect the gates into Zyarth's Dominion I & Family Nhuut. I also assisted with the conquest of the ARG sectors to the east (mostly because Zyarth was paying me with purple weapon mods to destroy the ARG defence platforms). Since then have been helping with the reconquest of Split sectors to the west which had been overrun by the Xenon. ZYA's leading the way on this, but every time I spot an active ZYA fleet in one of those sectors & new ZYA defence platforms being built, I go in with my demolition fleet to clear out the Xenon defence platforms (they're Behemoths & better suited to siege work).

[zakaluka]

yes - your wharf or shipyard, or the NPC's, makes little difference - what you're really making up for is a gap in logistics.

NPC shipyards produce as many ships as they have the materials to, as far as I'm aware. Deliver materials they need for building, or deliver completed ships, the gap you are filling is the same.

(difference previously was that built ships sold for 4 times what the components would have)

[jlehtone]

NPC shipyards produce as many ships as they have the materials to, as far as I'm aware. Deliver materials they need for building, or deliver completed ships, the gap you are filling is the same.

Each faction has its own limit on how many ships they have in fleets. I did deliver materials to ZYA and eventually they had no more ships in queue; limit reached. (They have since had attrition and therefore build again.)

There are basically four ways for a faction to get ships:

• They build themselves from materials
• They buy from player 'yard
• They give a mission to deliver a ship/fleet
• Player sells a ship. This is useless; the ship despawns quickly