Make Xenons great again

[mr.WHO]

There is an Egosoft discord?

[FatalKeks]

It‘s been confirmed by devs (discord) that there is an inbalance in the oos calculation for Xenons.

What exactly did they say?

There is an Egosoft discord?

viewtopic.php?t=395623

[Raptor34]

It‘s been confirmed by devs (discord) that there is an inbalance in the oos calculation for Xenons.

The irony is that if the AI works intelligently there isn't really such an imbalance. Because all non-Xenon ships outrange Xenon ships, and they ain't exactly super fast either.
They need more numbers though.

[Raevyan]

It‘s been confirmed by devs (discord) that there is an inbalance in the oos calculation for Xenons.

What exactly did they say?

„ But seriously, we're aware of the low attention discrepancy with them“ https://discord.com/channels/337098290 ... 1217946634

[FatalKeks]

It‘s been confirmed by devs (discord) that there is an inbalance in the oos calculation for Xenons.

What exactly did they say?

„ But seriously, we're aware of the low attention discrepancy with them“ https://discord.com/channels/337098290 ... 1217946634

Thanks!

Hope they will do something about it in the next patch.

[Spartan]

I hope next dlc or a game update will be adressed to Xenons. There are a lot of missed opportunities associated with them. At least they should be more adaptable to factions power. There must be a mechanic with which they could effectively return the sectors they lost. In my recent game they are staying resourceless from the start of new DLC. No threat, so no challenge. Xenons was a very important part of game lore, an existential threat to all races. Now they are a pale shadow of what they should be.

[nemo1887]

I suggest adding a new xenon sector to relaunch the xénons if the xénons are stronger, if patch ?.

[chasepack]

one option to keep as many folks happy is to have a Hostility Slider bar for them under Gameplay settings... possibly.

[CBJ]

No, it really wouldn't!

I've explained on a number of occasions before why "make it optional" (or in this case "make it a slider") is not a magic solution to every problem, and can actually cause more problems than it solves. In this case it would be an absolute nightmare for balancing and testing the game, for example to make sure the settings are balanced and the range of the slider sensible. The previous poster "got the idea" that it would break the game from our posts on the subject, where we explained in some detail how things like the economy can be severely disrupted even by seemingly small changes (and a "multiplier" on Xenon strength would be anything but small).

[Axeface]

In my new game thats about 4 (ingame) days in the xenon are contained much more than they used to be, and havent taken a single sector (in every other game ive done they took sectors). Company Regard is a warzone, Tharkas is absolutely swarming with capitals and they are regularly attacking hatikvahs. They are far from weak though and havent lost any sectors themselves. Something happens in the scripting about 2 game days in, right? They go from almost absent to swarming quite quickly. Ive noticed that aswel as the obvious terran nuisance constantly attacking them (with their invulnerable asgards), the rest of the factions are forming a lot more fleets than before? Either that or their fleets are surviving more, im not sure which. Its nice to see ANT slugging it out with an equal amount of capitals against HOP for once - ANT is fighting the terrans in Getsu Fune too which is really cool (considering they arnt actually at war, I think they are trying to stop terrans from contesting getsu).

Anyways.... rather than saying the xenon are weak now, ide say it looks like we've just achieved a good balance? In the end they will probably lose though so I would certainly not mind if they got some kind of buff to help them hold their sectors. This is nice though because im making a new capital for them and it might be a good time to add it, because it wont overpower them, so im quite happy with this

[dholmstr]

I would like them to beef up the P. Give the Xenom M weapons some more umph (maybe the good old shield piercing) and let the Xenon build more of them to protect K's.Also the M turret for Xenon should be way more potent, this and added HP on those should go along way.

Back in my old games the K'z mostly tried to "get on top" of the target so that all guns could fire, they don't seem to do that any more. Aaaaand that wierd nice looking red glowing thingy in the front of the K, obviously a main gun. Obviously!

[Axeface]

I would like them to beef up the P. Give the Xenom M weapons some more umph (maybe the good old shield piercing) and let the Xenon build more of them to protect K's.Also the M turret for Xenon should be way more potent, this and added HP on those should go along way.

Back in my old games the K'z mostly tried to "get on top" of the target so that all guns could fire, they don't seem to do that any more. Aaaaand that wierd nice looking red glowing thingy in the front of the K, obviously a main gun. Obviously!

M more oomph? That things shreds I dont think it needs more oomph.

[dholmstr]

I would like them to beef up the P. Give the Xenom M weapons some more umph (maybe the good old shield piercing) and let the Xenon build more of them to protect K's.Also the M turret for Xenon should be way more potent, this and added HP on those should go along way.

Back in my old games the K'z mostly tried to "get on top" of the target so that all guns could fire, they don't seem to do that any more. Aaaaand that wierd nice looking red glowing thingy in the front of the K, obviously a main gun. Obviously!

M more oomph? That things shreds I dont think it needs more oomph.

The turret or ship weapon? I've sat infront of 2 P's and well just killed them....

[mr.WHO]

The one reason why Xenons are so inflexible is that they are missing proper full set of ships, currently they have:

Xenon T - scout
Xenon N - no idea what purpose it is, light fighter?
Xenon M - standard fighter
Xenon S - M-size Freighter/Miner
Xenon P - Corvette
Xenon K - no, it's not a destroyer, it's XL and doesn't have main batteries - a cruiser perhaps?
Xenon I - battleship


Here is what they need:
S-size freighters - something small and fast to be able to supply these frontline outposts under construction.
L-size freighters/miners - to boost their economy and rpovide something that could dumb enough good for frontline outpost to be build in one haul.
LX fighter - heavy fighter, or perhaps upsized to become gunboat?
L-size destroyer - ideal candidate for Xenon Q, possibly with some kind of long range beam batter similar to Asgard, but less powerful - would allow Xenons to siege stations, but lower dammage would allow player and NPC factions to response in meanigful way.
XL size carrier - Basically Xenon J - in order to avoid general problem of Carriers loosing all their fighters rather easily, it could be a drone carrier that carry 100-200 drones and launch them in swarms like Xenon shipyard? It could also gradually and automatically replenish destroyed drones to retain it's power.

[slober]

No, it really wouldn't!

I've explained on a number of occasions before why "make it optional" (or in this case "make it a slider") is not a magic solution to every problem, and can actually cause more problems than it solves. In this case it would be an absolute nightmare for balancing and testing the game, for example to make sure the settings are balanced and the range of the slider sensible. The previous poster "got the idea" that it would break the game from our posts on the subject, where we explained in some detail how things like the economy can be severely disrupted even by seemingly small changes (and a "multiplier" on Xenon strength would be anything but small).

But you don't have to balance all of that option. Just medium mode.
I think it could be even a little bit easier for you to balance. I'm sure It is SUPER difficult now. Because you try to make all players happy but they want different things.
Some players are making trading empire and don't want xenons, some players playing slow but with strong defence and they expect strong xenons at the endgame stage,
some players play like a crazy with 1K miners and 1K destroyers and they don't know what they want...
Nobody is able to give them balance. Weak - complains, strong - complaints.


With this option of difficulty you could balance only medium mode. At the same time each player could balance it for themselves personally (and change it during the game if something is wrong).
We don't need xenons when we start the game when we don't have anything. But we need some challenge later. It would be cool to have nightmare and chaos at the end game stage. It can give new desire for play.

For sure nobody complain why Hard mode is so hard and imbalanced. It is your personal choice, challenge and a lot of fun. Nobody care about balance... it is hardcore.

If it is too fun and too hard just switch to low or medium what is almost peace or balanced game by Egosoft.

-----
It would be cool if this option effect only aggression and some bonuses to ship production.


Sorry for a lot of text and thanks for your time.

[Raptor34]

The one reason why Xenons are so inflexible is that they are missing proper full set of ships, currently they have:

Xenon T - scout
Xenon N - no idea what purpose it is, light fighter?
Xenon M - standard fighter
Xenon S - M-size Freighter/Miner
Xenon P - Corvette
Xenon K - no, it's not a destroyer, it's XL and doesn't have main batteries - a cruiser perhaps?
Xenon I - battleship


Here is what they need:
S-size freighters - something small and fast to be able to supply these frontline outposts under construction.
L-size freighters/miners - to boost their economy and rpovide something that could dumb enough good for frontline outpost to be build in one haul.
LX fighter - heavy fighter, or perhaps upsized to become gunboat?
L-size destroyer - ideal candidate for Xenon Q, possibly with some kind of long range beam batter similar to Asgard, but less powerful - would allow Xenons to siege stations, but lower dammage would allow player and NPC factions to response in meanigful way.
XL size carrier - Basically Xenon J - in order to avoid general problem of Carriers loosing all their fighters rather easily, it could be a drone carrier that carry 100-200 drones and launch them in swarms like Xenon shipyard? It could also gradually and automatically replenish destroyed drones to retain it's power.

L-sized just means easier interception. I regularly see their miners/power distributors travel around, L ones won't do that. S-sized might work, but I think it might be a better idea to just boost their speeds. Gives more reason for Mass Drivers and Disruptor missiles to knock them out of travel speed.
LX with some smaller scale Gravitons would be nice, and give their fighters more anti-cap punch.
Q, eh, I don't think it's necessary.
J, rather than a drone carrier, give them the launch tubes thing and simplified docking for their fighters, since players can't get them anyway they don't need the standard land/launch systems. Just give them something fast and rough. Both for launching and landing.
What they really need is a Xenon M0 though, make it so that it's sole purpose is staying behind to defend their sectors, but as they expand they'll move to defend their new sectors. I'm imagining it to be an Asgard on steriods. And also give them mobile ship building capability.
Like I'm imagining 10 XL shields, Gravitons all over, perhaps some tougher version with more health, probably 50 of them or something and an Asgard Beam but with better cooling/reload. And it should be real big, barely fits through a gate.
I mean Asgards are meant to take down tough fortifications, this is a tough fortification. Make there be a real reason to deploy multiple Asgards.

[Raevyan]

one option to keep as many folks happy is to have a Hostility Slider bar for them under Gameplay settings... possibly.

A better version would be some kind of plot with some kind of choice to make them more aggressive or not. Sure this would require more work but hey, they can sell a new plot and we get some more aggressive xenons if we so choose. That’s a much better implementation although a lot more work.

[CBJ]

But you don't have to balance all of that option. Just medium mode.

I don't think you have fully understood what the balancing issue is. It's not just about how strong the Xenon are in combat against the player, or how aggressive they are - it's about the potential to collapse the entire in-game economy. This isn't just a wild assumption; we conducted lengthy tests, in which we found that even just adjusting the strength of a couple of Xenon weapons could be enough to significantly change the whole game.

[Spartan]

Maybe there is a point in making something like “emergency mode” for Xenon. When close to extinction they change their behaviour, making more ships for example...

[mr.WHO]

But you don't have to balance all of that option. Just medium mode.

I don't think you have fully understood what the balancing issue is. It's not just about how strong the Xenon are in combat against the player, or how aggressive they are - it's about the potential to collapse the entire in-game economy. This isn't just a wild assumption; we conducted lengthy tests, in which we found that even just adjusting the strength of a couple of Xenon weapons could be enough to significantly change the whole game.

Ballance aside, any confirmation about Xenons being broken in OOS?
I've been observing Xenons in OOS in my game and they struggle to fight in OOS in all areas - from S-class to XL, they always need advantage 5:1 otherwise they either loose ot win with major losses. If it were only XL ships, my bet would be on turrets, but I see dozens of Xenon fighters wiped out by just a few Argon fighters and I haven't seen Xenon P taking anything in OOS for the long time either.