Use of Fighterbombers - Anyone tried ?.

[Dreez]

I know there are several light fighters that has access to torpedolaunchers, and torps do massive damage
to capitalships (the ones that doesn't get shot down) . I've used a single corvette with 5 launchers to great effect myself.
Soo... i'm thinking, wouldn't a wing of maybe 10 light figters set to attack capitalships with 4 launchers each,
pretty much nuke any but an Xenon I into oblivion in a single volley ?.

Has anyone played with this idea?.

Perhaps the only issue would be to keep them topped off with torpedos, but that could be a job for those new supportships.

[Wraith_Magus]

I haven't tried this myself, but I've read what people who have had written, and yes, the problem they face is that it's nearly impossible to keep these bombers stocked with missiles. Especially if you use something like a Pulsar, they can empty their very limited supply of torpedoes VERY quickly, and even capital ships struggle to keep them supplied. You need multiple auxiliary ships running laps to keep access to missile components and energy cells going, and you don't have jumpdrives like X3, so you're really limited in using them to very short bursts.

[Dreez]

I haven't tried this myself, but I've read what people who have had written, and yes, the problem they face is that it's nearly impossible to keep these bombers stocked with missiles. Especially if you use something like a Pulsar, they can empty their very limited supply of torpedoes VERY quickly, and even capital ships struggle to keep them supplied. You need multiple auxiliary ships running laps to keep access to missile components and energy cells going, and you don't have jumpdrives like X3, so you're really limited in using them to very short bursts.

You're really only going to have to fire 2 bursts on most capitalships to nuke them, that's 80 torpedos...
And that won't be a problem if you build a personal complex to provide them.

[Midnitewolf]

I haven't tried this myself, but I've read what people who have had written, and yes, the problem they face is that it's nearly impossible to keep these bombers stocked with missiles. Especially if you use something like a Pulsar, they can empty their very limited supply of torpedoes VERY quickly, and even capital ships struggle to keep them supplied. You need multiple auxiliary ships running laps to keep access to missile components and energy cells going, and you don't have jumpdrives like X3, so you're really limited in using them to very short bursts.

You're really only going to have to fire 2 bursts on most capitalships to nuke them, that's 80 torpedos...
And that won't be a problem if you build a personal complex to provide them.

Yeah it is. Do you realize how many components it takes to make 80 torpedoes? I mean you probably do but it an insane amount of materials for one torpedo and you would have to cycle your Torpedo Bombers back to a physical factory to reload because no AUX ship or Carrier has enough cargo space to reload more than a handful of Torpedo Bombers.

Honestly because of this, I find Torpedoes to be extremely powerful but also quite useless, all at the same time.

[Raptor34]

I haven't tried this myself, but I've read what people who have had written, and yes, the problem they face is that it's nearly impossible to keep these bombers stocked with missiles. Especially if you use something like a Pulsar, they can empty their very limited supply of torpedoes VERY quickly, and even capital ships struggle to keep them supplied. You need multiple auxiliary ships running laps to keep access to missile components and energy cells going, and you don't have jumpdrives like X3, so you're really limited in using them to very short bursts.

You're really only going to have to fire 2 bursts on most capitalships to nuke them, that's 80 torpedos...
And that won't be a problem if you build a personal complex to provide them.

The problem is not production, but logistics.
Its easier to just load them with plasma instead.
Unless you're really early game then torpedoes might be cheaper if you have only 10 fighters. Gun fighters need critical mass before they start being great.

[dholmstr]

I just wish I could add a trader ship directly to the AUX, to resupply. And that the AI actually could use it well.

[paraskous]

I just wish I could add a trader ship directly to the AUX, to resupply. And that the AI actually could use it well.

You can store chunky M ships ininternal storage to increase the cargo capacity of Aux indirectly tho.

[mr.WHO]

Bombers are great!

...it's missile supply and reloading that sux - both Auxilary Ship and Carrier doesn't have enough storage to effectively supply even small heavy torpedo wing, not to mention missile destroyer.

[jlehtone]

I just wish I could add a trader ship directly to the AUX, to resupply.

We can.

And that the AI actually could use it well.

... or at all. That is the problem.

Ten Chimera. Four torp launchers and one mass driver each. (AI at least had issue that it did not launch missiles from long range unless it could shoot with gun too.) In sector they blow up a K in no time. Low attention the missiles vanish with no effect. Rather than resupply, I transfer cargo (torpedos) manually from Carrier to the bombers. How does Carrier get missiles? I transfer from Frigates that fetch from Docks. Yes, a lot of manual work. Hence the bomber wing spends most of its time in the Bar.

[KextV8]

It works, but its too much hassle for something that can be solved by just adding more destroyers instead.

That's how I feel about S ships in general.

[Alkeena]

It works, but its too much hassle for something that can be solved by just adding more destroyers instead.

That's how I feel about S ships in general.

Most problems in this game can be solved by just throwing more resources at it. That's somewhat inherent in the game's design and so your response is entirely reasonable.

Player controlled anything throws everything out the window, so just discussing AI controlled ships:

Bang for buck 5 AI bombers can do the anti-capital work of a large number of AI destroyers because they have high burst damage as well as high relative survivability. The equivalent in AI destroyers (~1) will be pretty bloodied after going toe to toe with another destroyer, if it wins at all. Bombers will just be down a few torps. Destroyers (or plasma bombers) only really take over once you have a very large number relative to your opposition so that they can overwhelm them without taking lasting damage.

I personally run an upkeep mod that (that I've further tuned) which makes flying a *lot* of ships very expensive, and as a result I prefer bombers for their efficiency. Vanilla response is just more gun ships with zero running cost though.

[Botschafter Von Den Glück]

I think,
that X4 is thinking more eonomically,
and does not allow insane enmassing just the most effective thing,
but the most best missile has some drawbacks,
so lets try a weaker missile for 'daily' use,
and use torpedos 'only for singlesnipe' by order, on certain hard targets.

lasers have other use cases than missiles, and there is a thorough role-thinking behind the adjustments, that can be good, if one thinks about efficience, not just PLAIN (Build up to unlimited, then start doing AT ALL something), but you are encouraged to go into the fight UNPREPARED and just in mid of progressions with what is available.

its just difficult to play, but its well balanced... and FUN
one would just have to focus on that, and TELL that they are doing that way... to some playERS AT LEAST!
->but you are the one to find that out your way to play isgnt it the point of X?

[KextV8]

Bang for buck 5 AI bombers can do the anti-capital work of a large number of AI destroyers because they have high burst damage as well as high relative survivability.

Cost efficiency is variable. If we are only talking about the space craft, sure. But ammo is a cost. The infrastructure to support that ammo is a cost. The ships delivering the ammo have a cost. The blueprints for all that have a cost. The downtime for reloading and resupply is an indirect cost.

Is it worth it? The answer will vary from person to person. It can be a fun goal to work towards for sure. If you have fun doing it, go for it. That's what a game is about anyway.

On a side note, OOS vs IS also matters. I've watched my Syn controlled by the AI obliterate a pair of FF Rattlers with only shield damage. Ive watched that same Syn go full stupid and plant itself into station geometry and get stuck in sector.

In my experience, S ships die entirely too much out of sector. I have one Carrier for cool factor, and other than that I just spam Destroyers and M ships.

[Wraith_Magus]

Cost efficiency is variable. If we are only talking about the space craft, sure. But ammo is a cost. The infrastructure to support that ammo is a cost. The ships delivering the ammo have a cost. The blueprints for all that have a cost. The downtime for reloading and resupply is an indirect cost.

Is it worth it? The answer will vary from person to person. It can be a fun goal to work towards for sure. If you have fun doing it, go for it. That's what a game is about anyway.

On a side note, OOS vs IS also matters. I've watched my Syn controlled by the AI obliterate a pair of FF Rattlers with only shield damage. Ive watched that same Syn go full stupid and plant itself into station geometry and get stuck in sector.

In my experience, S ships die entirely too much out of sector. I have one Carrier for cool factor, and other than that I just spam Destroyers and M ships.

There's a big difference, however, in that blueprints are a one-off cost. Players are assumed to be constantly accruing wealth, and your primary reason to spend that wealth is to accrue more wealth.

The M7M from X3: AP is a cumbersome beast to supply at the start, as it takes basically having a whole dedicated factory just to make the missiles nobody else builds. Once you have that and a supply gofer transport, however, your M7M can end all conflicts from ultra-long range effortlessly, and there is basically no upkeep cost once you have paid for your infinite renewable missile factory. It has no real costs except the cost of my player time spent ordering it around, and it's easier to order around than a fleet capable of doing the kind of damage the M7M can do.

In X4, as the player builds factories that sell to the other factions, the factories all start to become full of supplies, so the profit dwindles as you'll stop getting anything but the minimum price, if you can find a buyer at all. Meanwhile, resources are practically free. Player time is vastly more valuable than money the later you get into the game, and the monetary value of any given resource also plummets as the market becomes saturated, as well. (Unless you start putting extra shipyards into requested defense stations or something...)

I like to avoid losses, but it's more to do with avoiding the loss of experienced pilots, and I don't care much about the loss of easily-replaced ships.

[KextV8]

Yep. M7M in x3 was quite a different beast tho. Missile barrage was super long range, the m7m, itself could hold enough missiles to basically annihilate an entire sector, and with a jump drive it could arrive to wherever you wanted almost immediately as well as jump back to resupply missiles at will.

X4 is a different beast. The missiles have much shorter range, holding space for them is much more limited, and travel logistics are actually a thing.

Its not insurmountable. Its just far different. It makes them an annoyance to actually deploy on attack compared to gunships and just not having to worry about logistics, because they cannot take care of their own needs.To do it, you need several factories around the map so that they are always in range of one, fleet supply ships to build the missiles and resupply them, and transports to ferry the materials back and forth from the factories. Instead , if you use them defensively at forward Defense Stations with attached missile factories, they are very convenient for nuking any enemy capitals that try to pass through.

In that role, they are great little sector defenders, that let you put more of your big guns out on attack.


We have nothing comparable to M7M in X4. What we have are more like baby M8s. They work, and its fun. But their management is a pita.

[jlehtone]

In that role, they are great little sector defenders, that let you put more of your big guns out on attack.

Defenders are mostly in low attention. The only time I tried to attack K in that mode 240 Heavy Torpedos did burn in seconds with no effect whatsoever. (That was before 4.0.)

[Botschafter Von Den Glück]

X4 has good balancing and good mechanics,

but the time advancing and the POWER advancing in X4 is not like in X3, but much faster, or times more powerful,
and the Controls are not TIME-Efficient i must say:
you can CHOOSE ONE of maybe 10 things you want to do at a given time, but there is not much parallelism possible,
and the 'input time' must be well calculated, putting it into 'work' or stressed playing,

not like X3 giving you quick cuts to everything and everywhere.

and beaucse the time does hurry so much (no Sinza-slowed down universe you know?)
you cannot afford to just experiment 100 hours with missiles, but its an EITHER OR decision, because X4 needs ages of playtime to do things 'right', and as soon as I start experiment, I get cutted the time advancing away, because i EASILY loose 2 or 3 hours savegame for the APPROACH to missile based fighting,
but you want to ADVANCE into competetive battles in some time quicker than 300 hours until you have the own wharf omni-supply setled down.

but if you shortcut the EMPIRE building phase to more 'EGO'-based playing, less ships, more focus on individual subordinate fighter bombers or activities with YOUR ship only, simply put, its an uneven trade.
(which costs you time with more effective TRADER and economy commanding and build up, you can do that 20% but its just much slower if you are going big scouting data vault/ or capture or enter journey, it does mostly, count as the same time passed, but at a given time X+100 hours xenon start get strong, HOP war is in going, so you want to be prepared to get into the juicy things before vital processes have been terminated by will.)

BECAUSE OF THIS the individual fighter bomber is a bit missplanned in this universe, as you cannot manage them well yet, other than buy, ask to attack, and ask to reload, you have not much control about their return of investment, you run 'too short' (in theese words), away from the state, when every money is there, and the size of anything or nothing does not play a real balancing role anymore.... but it should.

just wanted to show you, how the mechanics are divergating contrary to best balancings done

[KextV8]

Defenders are mostly in low attention.

Most combat in the game is in low attention. If you want torpedos to work you have to be present in sector, regardless of how you use them.