Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

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Would you prefer no ship mod RNG?

Yes
42
70%
No, I like the current system
13
22%
I don't care
5
8%
 
Total votes: 60

abisha1980
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by abisha1980 » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 11:41

TKz wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 09:42
abisha1980 wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 08:48
RNG is a bane of the gaming industry for ages they should remove it on anything
No it's not.
Some game genres are and always were defined by RNG items (dungeon crawlers, A-RPGs, RPGs, hack and slash). Diablo without RNG is not Diablo ...
Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 21. Jan 22, 22:17
Another option would be that "reroll" is replaced with "improve" where it rerolls all stats but only for the affixes that were previously rolled (disassemble to change those) and only takes the rolls that improved. This way "improve" only ever makes the mod better and so quickly your mods converge towards optimal, even after a few rolls. Each improve does consume some nominal parts (and cost money if not done at a player owned station). This would keep randomness but give players an ability to tame it. Not everyone likes gambling, especially when the rolls clearly have a biased probability distribution towards bad numbers.
I like that. It keeps a progression system (you will improve your ship gradually during gameplay), but it won't be as frustrating as it is today.
not really the right topic to discuss other games RNG but even those games can be done better for example giving items also a substat bonus to upgrades (by collecting parts) etc.
RNG is just bad only place it belongs is in card games or gambling (alto they never really random in the first place)
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by pref » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 11:51

Imo the problem is not RNG but all the clicks needed and differing stats for the weapons on a single ship.

Being able to apply the same roll on all same type equipment on a ship would be great though. At least range and cooldown should be possible to sync between weapons.
Cooldown is especially problematic as you loose the advantage when you have to overheat some of the weapons to make use of it.

Pares
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Pares » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 13:01

I was b*tching about this since release. The kind of RNG that is used in mod crafting has absolutely no place in a single player game. I would say it is the most annoying thing in the game for me. Hell, even Elite, which is actually an MMO where you cannot simple save and reload, has a lot better engineering system, where each iteration can only improve on the previous one.
Imperial Good wrote:
Fri, 21. Jan 22, 22:17
Another option would be that "reroll" is replaced with "improve" where it rerolls all stats but only for the affixes that were previously rolled (disassemble to change those) and only takes the rolls that improved. This way "improve" only ever makes the mod better and so quickly your mods converge towards optimal, even after a few rolls. Each improve does consume some nominal parts (and cost money if not done at a player owned station). This would keep randomness but give players an ability to tame it. Not everyone likes gambling, especially when the rolls clearly have a biased probability distribution towards bad numbers.
THIS. This a hundred billion times. Just make each iteration improve on the previous one. This would also give you the chance to have multiple upgraded weapons with exactly the same stats.

Raptor34
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Raptor34 » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 17:11

My only problem with it is the number of clicks.
Firstly I want a simple reroll button. So I don't have to remove, move my cursor and then reinstall.
Second, I don't care if all the numbers are random, but let me do all my weapons/shields at the same time. With a checkbox or something and then I only reroll the ones I want.
Third, should as well tighten up the shield mod range, since rerolling that is free anyway.

Perhaps we should also be allowed to do targeted modding, but with the costs calculated from the odds. Like if for a 1-100% range you'll on average get a 100% once every hundred rerolls, then let us pay the cost directly instead of mashing the button. And yes, that means paying for all those hundred rerolls, but with only one click this time.
That way you can either play the roulette for a lower cost or pay the lump sum for the guarantee.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 18:09

Personally very much like the mod system myself, but then I never strive to get the absolute best of everything, or even have comparable stats on all guns. Indeed sometimes find it useful to have deliberately mismatched guns. For example, one gun optimised for long range, while an identical gun (with the same mod) next to it has a much faster cooldown rate. Often do this with my personal destroyer so I've got one main battery that's really good for long range sniping, while the other's more of a general purpose gun.

Certainly do not want to have to pay for really expensive mods just to get max effects. For the overwhelming majority of my modded ships (freighters, miners, fighters, etc) they get precisely one roll per mod. They're usually fitted with basic greens where I'm fine with the minimum effect & anything above that is just gravy. Reaver engines on my freighters is a good example. +35% travel mode speed is exceptionally useful & dirt cheap for only 50k & a handful of resources. +45% is obviously better but in no way essential, so would certainly be against the modding system being changed so I'm forced to pay millions to get that extra 10% that I really don't want or need.

Raptor34 wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 17:11
My only problem with it is the number of clicks.
Firstly I want a simple reroll button. So I don't have to remove, move my cursor and then reinstall.
This is already the case. No need to dismantle first, unless changing to a different mod (e.g. upgrading from blue to purple mod). Apart from that, if you just want different stats, you can just keep hitting the reassemble button as many time as you want to/can afford.

Raptor34 wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 17:11
Perhaps we should also be allowed to do targeted modding, but with the costs calculated from the odds. Like if for a 1-100% range you'll on average get a 100% once every hundred rerolls, then let us pay the cost directly instead of mashing the button. And yes, that means paying for all those hundred rerolls, but with only one click this time.
That way you can either play the roulette for a lower cost or pay the lump sum for the guarantee.
Like this idea best of everything in the thread so far. Keep existing mod system as it is, but add a 'throw money at the problem' button which guarantees a perfect mod but costs an absolute fortune & eats a mountain of resources for the convenience.

Techedge
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Techedge » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 18:32

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 18:09
Raptor34 wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 17:11
Perhaps we should also be allowed to do targeted modding, but with the costs calculated from the odds. Like if for a 1-100% range you'll on average get a 100% once every hundred rerolls, then let us pay the cost directly instead of mashing the button. And yes, that means paying for all those hundred rerolls, but with only one click this time.
That way you can either play the roulette for a lower cost or pay the lump sum for the guarantee.
Like this idea best of everything in the thread so far. Keep existing mod system as it is, but add a 'throw money at the problem' button which guarantees a perfect mod but costs an absolute fortune & eats a mountain of resources for the convenience.
The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.

GCU Grey Area
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 19:03

Techedge wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 18:32
The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.
Nah, really not keen on that idea at all. Like Raptor 34's idea a lot more. Tend to treat X4 as more of an RPG &, bizarre as it may sound to some, adversity (e.g. a series of bad rolls at the modding workbench & now I'm out of resources) is something I find fun at times - forcing me to head off to get more resources with poorly optimised gear. That sort of thing would be lost if the modding system were changed to an 'it only gets better with every roll' approach.

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alt3rn1ty
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by alt3rn1ty » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 19:18

Oh yes please ..

The amount of times I have wished all my weapons, and engines on ships of the same type (for Patrols etcetera) were the same speed, but its just about impossible to get them all synced if using in game modifications so I tend not to use the modifications if I want them all performing the same.

Also plus 1 for reducing the amount of High Energy Catalysts required by re-rolls mentioned earlier, getting them is a PITA and they are mostly wasted on re-rolls.
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Techedge
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Techedge » Sat, 22. Jan 22, 19:41

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 19:03
Techedge wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 18:32
The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.
Nah, really not keen on that idea at all. Like Raptor 34's idea a lot more. Tend to treat X4 as more of an RPG &, bizarre as it may sound to some, adversity (e.g. a series of bad rolls at the modding workbench & now I'm out of resources) is something I find fun at times - forcing me to head off to get more resources with poorly optimised gear. That sort of thing would be lost if the modding system were changed to an 'it only gets better with every roll' approach.
Oh, I understand your point, but I don't share it.
And that's fine, as we all have our own style of play and none can be really considered "right". :wink:

gorgofdoom
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by gorgofdoom » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 01:03

Ehh.....

I have more problems with the mod system than just this. Current rendition requires about 200 clicks to get an M ship into a sufficiently modded state. Not to mention modding a raptor at around 3000 clicks.... this system is so punishing to my mouse i've set up an auto-clicker just to handle this stuff.

So i will make a more broad suggestion:

1) A 'ship modifier' role for an NPC that is based on said NPC's engineering skill would determine the quality of installed mods at our own shipyard. At NPC yards it should still be RNG based, as we cannot control who installs the mods. the main benefit being that all the mods installed will be consistent, barring the NPC gaining skill.

2) Mod templates, please! once a template is applied this NPC could search for ships with unapplied templates consisting of available resources & generate an order for them to be applied when the ships current assignment is completed.

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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Raptor34 » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 09:18

Why not introduce a separate improvement research system instead?
I mean, I don't think it was intended for you to mod all your ships rather than your personal ones so they are more personalized.
Keep the mod system as is with QoL improvements so you can click less, and have a research system so you can upgrade ships but with corresponding higher costs. Like you're building your own higher quality ships. And while research would make use of drop components, the upgrades themselves would use regular goods.
Perhaps even link it to the terraforming system, and make it cost quite a lot because you are building better stuff than the races. Then it could be a late game resource sink.

Though I doubt it would reduce complaints. I mean seriously? Modding your patrol ships? The ones intended to take the enemy head on regularly? Ones intended to be disposable?

TKz
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by TKz » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 10:17

Raptor34 wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 09:18
Though I doubt it would reduce complaints. I mean seriously? Modding your patrol ships? The ones intended to take the enemy head on regularly? Ones intended to be disposable?
I agree, game is already way too easy once you have a few factories. If you can then have ALL your ships moded and the factions cannot, it feels like a cheat code :lol:
I only use mods on a very few personal ships, that become absolutely OP in player hands (you can clear 3 I, ~10 K and hundreds of N/M/P in a single sector in a few minutes with only a moded Rattlesnake).
That's why I don't like solutions like "mods only gives the highest possible roll" that would basically be a "I WIN BUTTON" after only a few hours of gameplay.

Pares
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Pares » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:18

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 19:03
Techedge wrote:
Sat, 22. Jan 22, 18:32
The "improve" idea thrown by Imperial Good should better fit all needs, as you could stop improving when you see fit.
Nah, really not keen on that idea at all. Like Raptor 34's idea a lot more. Tend to treat X4 as more of an RPG &, bizarre as it may sound to some, adversity (e.g. a series of bad rolls at the modding workbench & now I'm out of resources) is something I find fun at times - forcing me to head off to get more resources with poorly optimised gear. That sort of thing would be lost if the modding system were changed to an 'it only gets better with every roll' approach.
Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.

Pares
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Pares » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:23

TKz wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 10:17
Raptor34 wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 09:18
Though I doubt it would reduce complaints. I mean seriously? Modding your patrol ships? The ones intended to take the enemy head on regularly? Ones intended to be disposable?
I agree, game is already way too easy once you have a few factories. If you can then have ALL your ships moded and the factions cannot, it feels like a cheat code :lol:
There are definitely modded NPC ships flying around, so I'm not sure what you are talking about.

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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:36

Pares wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:18
Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.
That may be your opinion, I disagree. Reminds me much more of overclocking a PC. Never get the same results twice, even with ostensibly identical components. That's also using brand new components, rather than stuff salvaged from a PC which has been repeatedly shot until it exploded.

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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 13:03

[Sorry GCU, I couldn't resist!]

... Captain, we have successfully overclocked the ship's combat computer and we are getting great processing speeds now! ... Yes, Captain, that is indeed great news but I wouldn't roll the mod out across the fleet just yet. ... You see the combat computer now only works for 5 seconds before it overheats and needs to be cooled down for a few minutes. ... Yes Captain, I'll get the mod removed - you can take the modding cost out of my pay.
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by abisha1980 » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 13:25

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:36
Pares wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:18
Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.
That may be your opinion, I disagree. Reminds me much more of overclocking a PC. Never get the same results twice, even with ostensibly identical components. That's also using brand new components, rather than stuff salvaged from a PC which has been repeatedly shot until it exploded.
that's because it will brake QM if it do but that do not take away that all based on equal distribution.
if intel produce a batch of chips some are better then others, others are worse then standard but the batch amount will always have the same distribution.

if you install a water cooler on your CPU you can overclock it better simple fact same go's with modding a spaceship equipment, car, CPU, GPU etc, etc
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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 13:29

Alan Phipps wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 13:03
[Sorry GCU, I couldn't resist!]

... Captain, we have successfully overclocked the ship's combat computer and we are getting great processing speeds now! ... Yes, Captain, that is indeed great news but I wouldn't roll the mod out across the fleet just yet. ... You see the combat computer now only works for 5 seconds before it overheats and needs to be cooled down for a few minutes. ... Yes Captain, I'll get the mod removed - you can take the modding cost out of my pay.
Kind of my point - sounds to me just the sort of thing you might get if you salvaged the cooling systems from several bullet-ridden, burnt out wrecks. First few you try might turn out to be just a little bit leaky & provide sub-optimal results.

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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by Pares » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 18:40

GCU Grey Area wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:36
Pares wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 12:18
Let's be completely honest and objective here. The current implementation simulates a slot machine. That's the reality. You pull the lever and get a random result each time. Other games have mechanisms like this, sure. For example Mass Effect had slot machines too, but those were put where they belong, in a casino, and they were completely irrelevant minigames! In X4 it is a major part of the game since many of the research options revole around unlocking mods.

Engineering is not gambling. The current implementation, where you can't reproduce results, where you virtually can't get the same effects from putting the same components together twice, makes absolutely no sense from either role playing, immersion, common sense, and definitely not from engineering point of view.
That may be your opinion, I disagree. Reminds me much more of overclocking a PC. Never get the same results twice, even with ostensibly identical components. That's also using brand new components, rather than stuff salvaged from a PC which has been repeatedly shot until it exploded.
It's not my opinion, this is how it works in the game. You press the button and get random result each time with no regards to the previous iteration. Not sure how does that relate to PC overclocking more than gambling machines. Higher frequency -> higher performance (+) - higher heat generation (-) and higher instability (-), these things are in direct relationship. I don't see the "push button for random result" in this at all, but whatever.

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Re: Ship mod update, 5.0 beta request, an easy win

Post by GCU Grey Area » Sun, 23. Jan 22, 19:03

Pares wrote:
Sun, 23. Jan 22, 18:40
Not sure how does that relate to PC overclocking more than gambling machines.
It's an analogy. A real world situation where pushing something beyond the specifications at which it was designed to run has unpredictable results.

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