Egosoft unveils X4: Timelines expansion and major 7.00 update to X4: Foundations

[Matthew94]

I don't get people calling for more sectors. How will adding more sectors fundamentally change the game? Is one more Xenon or teladi station really going to transform things?

[mr.WHO]

I wanted more remote/unclaimed/dangerous sectors and it seems I'll get some in 7.0, so I'm happy even if DLC doesn't provide them.

[CulunTse]

What I'm sceptical about is the disconnected nature of the new content. It takes place completely outside of our sandbox. Mind you, in a game that is all about the sandbox experience and carrying on the same save for half a decade.
...

I know, we can keep some of the unlocked ships for the sandbox, but for me that feels a bit off.
..

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your viewpoint, thanks!

I get what you're saying that it's "strange" to focus outside the sandbox. From my perspective, the sandbox is already more than large enough at the current point. I find that the only truly limited resource (player attention) is already at its limit: maybe I haven't automated enough yet (always true), but I'm producing 150k/hour hullparts, and instantly using those up plonking down stations, and I still can't keep up with all the AI happenings. I do a mission for the Boron, only to realise a xenon breakthrough that needs attention in the Split sectors. Before that is handled, the ARG-HOP front needs stabilising.. While that is occupying my attention, the Teladi have steamrolled the south-west Xenon before I could even fully explore/claim Turquoise Sea..

More is happening than I can keep up with (not a bad thing!), and from my perspective that is "big enough".

In that respect, I welcome the stress-release from an out-of-sandbox game loop. I feel a fair amount of pressure to save everyone in the universe, and I think removing that pressure in the timelines-scenarios will help me enjoy them in a different way.

I also think this kind of experimentation really helps X4 appeal to different types of players. So far, all the expansions have really built up different aspects.
Base game did empire in the small.
Split Vendetta has a very military conquest/fleet battle focus, with the constant xenon threat.
Cradle of Humanity was very much economy/logistics, with the (large) Sol system and the absolutely voracious terran production chain.
Avarice turned Split Vendetta upside down with a "lone, struggling smuggler" facet, expanding on the "early game" before your first (hand full) of stations.
Kingdom End is very tuned to exploration and discovery, with the story-driven sector unlocks (which I think makes it very rewarding compared to "just" Gate-hopping in most other expansion)

Each of those expansions suits a different playstyle, and magnifies a different aspect of the X-sandbox.
And we shouldn't forget that the base game gets all the tooling, UI and performance goodies, for free, each and every DLC.

I also think this varied strategy is a good way for Egosoft to keep their workday fun and challenging. If all the DLCs were "just" more sectors, more ships and more economy, no matter how we'll-executed, both the DLC and their workweek would start to feel repetetive. That's a killer for motivation and creativity.
I personally don't want Egosoft to go down the "yet another Fifa current-year" or "call of modern warfare X+1", "assassin's creed which-culture-havent-we-milked-yet" route.
(I enjoyed most of those franchises, but stopped caring once all the sequels started feeling repetetive)

I understand the idea that Timelines is not "playing to the X strengths (sandbox)", but I think it's admirable that Egosoft keeps pushing their comfort zone, and for me, that keeps the game fresh!

[chew-ie]

Anybody noticed those red and blue pulse lasers?
I want those red and blue pulse lasers.

Kthx.



@source gog store page header

[Crimsonraziel]

I don't get people calling for more sectors. How will adding more sectors fundamentally change the game? Is one more Xenon or teladi station really going to transform things?

What makes you believe those people are asking to "fundamentally change the game" in the first place?

[Matthew94]

I don't get people calling for more sectors. How will adding more sectors fundamentally change the game? Is one more Xenon or teladi station really going to transform things?

What makes you believe those people are asking to "fundamentally change the game" in the first place?

Then I'll lower the bar: what will adding more sectors add to the game, qualitatively? Sectors are virtually infinite in size, are usually sparsely inhabited, and most don't have any highways.

How does another infinite cell of space change someone's gameplay given the huge number we already have?

[xant]

More is happening than I can keep up with (not a bad thing!), and from my perspective that is "big enough".

In that respect, I welcome the stress-release from an out-of-sandbox game loop. I feel a fair amount of pressure to save everyone in the universe, and I think removing that pressure in the timelines-scenarios will help me enjoy them in a different way.

Thank you for your elaborate answer. I get where you're coming from and actually agree that the solution to the game isn't "more of the same".

Hence why I stated that I wanted better tools to manage the things I already got (while getting an expansion that plays into those improvements, like Avarice did with the scrap economy), add different things, like sub-factions with their own twist on how they play and what they do, local anomalies changing the way the game plays (again, I refer to Avarice and the Tide), offering different approaches for how to start your economy or where to expand.

In many ways, Tides of Avarice was the unusual (and for me successful) experiment, compared to all the other expansions. Everything else just focused on getting back the old races, while ToA added a highly specialized Argon sub-faction and made it revolve around a newly created game mechanic. It gave us two interesting (albeit too short) main stories to play.

Of course, there could've been better interactions with the casino, or more stories surrounding the ban on water, smuggling ice, undermining VIG and helping RIP, but well, Avarice made me hope for more variety and diversity. Made me dream of an universe in which factions weren't just 10+ sectors of the same, but consisting of a bunch of locally diverse sub-factions, with their own quirks and habits and goals and interests.

For me, that is how I hoped future expansions would be. Adding variety to the base game, maybe even starting to add a civilian economy over time. And it's not like we haven't got existing sub-factions to explore here: Aldrin, the X-Rebirth pocket with Plutarch/Jonferco/TerraCorp, Goners, the third Paranid faction based on Paranid Prime, Pirates are still not fleshed out (making them rather frustrating to deal with), and practically every sector cut off from the main network has the potential to rise up and become interesting/new. Avarice came out of nothing, VIG/RIP didn't exist prior to ToA.

In a way Egosoft's reluctance to not change the sunlight intensity sabotages their effort to make the systems feel more unique. Avarice/Mercury/Venus would feel better, if ECells weren't universally available at 100% sunlight intensity across the galaxy. And I would want them to create local clusters of resources, and forcing factions/the player to plan and work out shortages, setting up supply chains, making things work.

But instead of creating economic challenges, or adding flavor/variety, we get a separate mode to replay old story missions, which I played 10-20 years ago? That's not progress for me, that's a nice-to-have feature for fans of nostalgia. Or maybe to explore the lore; which might always be somewhat interesting, but then again, once you have seen it, that's it.

I don't see myself playing or interacting with that more than once. Since it isn't connected to the sandbox, I'd also have no inherent desire to go back and replay those scenarios. It is disconnected from the game mode in which I spent thousands of hours.

Will I buy it? Yeah, probably. I'll give the devs the benefit of doubt. But for the first time, I'm a bit confused about the direction of the game. It's a sandbox, with a fully simulated economy. Egosoft spent years making it, almost 20 years before they managed to pull it off. There is no other game like that, it's the biggest strength of X4; one that Bernd doesn't get tired to point out each time he has an interview. So why have an expansion that doesn't play into that strength even one bit? Why depart from what makes the game so great? That's what I don't get.

[Hector0x]

So why have an expansion that doesn't play into that strength even one bit? Why depart from what makes the game so great?

At this point we simply don't know how the separate Timelines 'mode' will even work. Heck, it could be more of a dynamic sandbox than the base game itself. Claiming that the main feature will be a series of disconnected missions is speculation.

Yes i still expect this DLC to bust. But it will be a valuable lesson. I'd rather have exotic/experimental ideas tested in a separate game mode first. An X5 fail would be so much worse

[xant]

At this point we simply don't know how the separate Timelines 'mode' will even work. Heck, it could be more of a dynamic sandbox than the base game itself. Claiming that the main feature will be a series of disconnected missions is speculation.

But we do know that, and it's not speculation?

"X4: Timelines is your gateway to uncharted territories and untold stories. Select 'Timelines' from the main menu of X4: Foundations and set forth on an adventure that transcends time and space. Along the way, you can unlock various bonuses for your X4 sandbox universe."

"X4: Timelines introduces a completely new game mode, with many short scenarios to play and replay."

That leaves no room for guessing whether it's part of the old sandbox or not. That is what I'm talking about.

While the short missions will somehow be connected with each other and probably tell an overarching story, my main gripe is with it not being part of the existing sandbox, that we can't play the new content with our existing characters, in our existing save games.

[jlehtone]

While the short missions will somehow be connected with each other and probably tell an overarching story, my main gripe is with it not being part of the existing sandbox, that we can't play the new content with our existing characters, in our existing save games.

X3R had a mission where you fly through Asteroid. It was possible for small, fast ship. I had a loaded Raptor ...
At end of X3R plot there is a cutscene that shows your ship do a victory roll. I still had that Raptor and the camera was not nice for ship of that size.

The point is that stories are near impossible to "balance" when the player can have whatever. You do know what happens to a story if eagles simply carry Frodo to the mountain. If you have short mission that starts player in known state and does not give opportunity for player to "take the long route", then player can only do the mission "as planned".

[xant]

If you have short mission that starts player in known state and does not give opportunity for player to "take the long route", then player can only do the mission "as planned".

And yet the better story/narrative comes at the cost of not playing in the sandbox. In a game that Bernd doesn't get tired to stress how sandbox-y and simulated it is. Last time Egosoft tried to confine the player to a single ship and send them down a pre-defined narrative, was when X-Rebirth almost ended Egosoft in a disaster.

X4 with all its expansions performs well, economically speaking. Exceeding their expectations, according to their own words. Because they went back to their roots and built a true simulation in a true sandbox, giving the player near-absolute freedom. And they also spent lots of time and effort to make save games carry over between expansions, because players don't like to give up the stuff they worked so hard for over hundreds or even thousands of hours.

Leaving the sandbox and confining the player yet again to a single ship in a story-driven narrative, separate from the sandbox, just doesn't play into X4's biggest strengths. It's an economic and logistics simulation, first and foremost, not a cinematic space opera.

[Hector0x]

That leaves no room for guessing whether it's part of the old sandbox or not. That is what I'm talking about.

No one is questioning that Timelines will be isolated from the main universe. But that doesn't mean that it has to be short missions with only a cutscene/briefing in between.
Timelines could also be a completely new sandbox map with extensive changes after every scripted timetravel mission. Some missions might even have their own custom sandbox.

But we do know that, and it's not speculation?

My statements are clearly marked as speculation as i formulated in the subjunctive.

Nevertheless i maintain that there is evidence to support my theory. The X-series' core gameplay element is universe simulation. If these sandbox elements were absent in the new 'Timelines mode' it would be a faux pax of unprecedented proportion.

[xant]

Nevertheless i maintain that there is evidence to support my theory. The X-series' core gameplay element is universe simulation. If these sandbox elements were absent in the new 'Timelines mode' it would be a faux pax of unprecedented proportion.

I mean, the wording of "many short scenarios to play and replay" (especially the word "replay") doesn't indicate a string of narrative missions within one single simulation, but numerous separate scenarios scattered across the entire timeline, selected from the main menu of the game, as the product description says. Which you can repeat as much as you want. And challenges, i.e. doing a timed race or something.

The short scenarios are indicated to be famous events, like R. Gunne luring away the Terraformers, Kyle Brennan taking out the M0 Mothership, and other major milestones in X-history. Only the Harper Donel story promises a somewhat longer narrative, although it's not clear how long or how big the universe will be there, or how much freedom you get with building stations etc.

How much sandbox/simulation will be in Timelines, remains to be seen. Just that from the things the reveal trailer said and the product description, nothing hints at the new expansion being about the sandbox experience (other than unlocking ships for it by completing the Timeline events). To the contrary in fact, Bernd says that "X4 is all about an open massive universe, [...] enjoying the growth from a single ship to a full-blown empire. Until now. X4: Timelines introduces a completely new game mode."

For me that sounds like a departure from the current modus operandi.

[jlehtone]

For me that sounds like a departure from the current modus operandi.

Lets not worry yet. We can wait until the DLC is out and then we have facts for decision of whether to reward the effort.

Sandboxers are one group of customers, but we have seen requests for "goal/challenge" too; some people prefer tasks given to them rather than innovating self. Whether it is profitable to target that group of customers is a question of its own, and we do not yet know whether the timelines even attempts that.

[vvvvvvvv]

While the short missions will somehow be connected with each other and probably tell an overarching story, my main gripe is with it not being part of the existing sandbox, that we can't play the new content with our existing characters, in our existing save games.

X3R had a mission where you fly through Asteroid. It was possible for small, fast ship. I had a loaded Raptor ...

X4 has something similar, where you're supposed to fly through tunnels to reach a hidden base inside. I managed stuff my M ship halfway through the tunnel before it occurred to me that maybe that's not what I was supposed to be doing.

The thing that worries me about the announcement is that in x series there's often a bizarre disconnect between supposed storyline and mechanics. Mechanics are very cool. Storylines though...

For example, in x3 there was that incredibly out of place mission with planetary chase. Looked very weird and completely disconnected from everything else. Basically, from time to time I feel that somebody is trying to put in content that would be better realized in a different medium. As a book or a movie, for example. And that content does not play nice with sandbox.

The announcement feels like this sort of content.

[Pesanur]

X3R had a mission where you fly through Asteroid. It was possible for small, fast ship. I had a loaded Raptor ...

Then you missed that Saya left to you her ship for this mission.

[CulunTse]

One thing that occurs to me, that I haven't seen discussed in this thread, is "newcomer vs veteran" and how that affects perception.

I see many posts here mentioning X3, so I get that for that 'veteran' player base, reliving highlights doesn't sound too revolutionary.

I myself am a 'newcomer', discovered the series when Rebirth had a free weekend (I think it was for the XR2.5 release?)
I've never experienced all those historic moments.
I only know the lore that the infamous "guild of noobs" video summarised, or what I read in the books (fortunately, I live I Germany, and can read German. There are a lot of people in this world who don't have access to the book-lore).

I'll never have the time to play the full X1, X2, X3(AP, TC) to catch up, nor do I feel like installing such an outdated game, missing all the features X4 has spoiled me with.

For me a "biggest hits" mode in my "native" X4 is a wonderful way to "catch up", as it were.

And let's not forget, it's a DLC we are talking about. X4 won't magically stop having the sandbox it already has..
A DLC is a better place for this experiment than declaring X4 "finished" and going all in on Rebirth-2-the-Narration-strikes-back

[Crimsonraziel]

Then I'll lower the bar: what will adding more sectors add to the game, qualitatively? Sectors are virtually infinite in size, are usually sparsely inhabited, and most don't have any highways.

How does another infinite cell of space change someone's gameplay given the huge number we already have?

Still a strawman. I wanted my Borons back because they're my favorites. Adding Borons did not have a huge impact on gameplay, and I never asked for that. While I don't necessarily want more sectors, I do want Omicron Lyrae and Aldrin. Seizewell just for the name, too. And the same situation applies for factions, i.e. TerraCorp.

Impact on gameplay isn't everything people care about.

[Baddieus]

what will adding more sectors add to the game

From what I see on the future map, the upcoming sectors are mostly empty and nearer to factions than the Turquois Sea sectors.
I really like the atmosphere of those Turquois Sea's, but they are on the edge of the map and out of 5-Star manager delivery range.
Also a couple of them look like they might provide new routes through/around to other sectors which might avoid or add to a conflict.

=Baddieus=

[jlehtone]

Impact on gameplay isn't everything people care about.

That is true. The first time in Seizewell made that place/name "special". Perhaps the Timelines offers revisits.

Some players worship "Holy FPS" and cringe on addition of active objects (factions, i.e. ships and stations) -- even when the player is the one that can add more objects than anything else. A sector in itself does not add many "active objects", does it?