Turret aiming at engines

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Vilmu
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Turret aiming at engines

Post by Vilmu » Thu, 15. Apr 21, 23:42

Turrets also seem to prefer targetting modules instead of the ship itself.
The moment is long gone so cannot provide a save. But here is a screenshot of ANT Engine Factory turrets trying to shoot at Osaka's engines, and effectively failing at it because I think the engines itself are just out of range or just doesn't know where to aim to hit them:

https://i.imgur.com/2Vxg3FW.jpg

The Osaka was not moving so it's not misses caused by movement. And it eventually started to hit the Osaka because it got closer.

CBJ
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Re: v4.00 Turret Issues

Post by CBJ » Fri, 16. Apr 21, 00:34

That would be a completely different issue to the one described by the OP.

Vilmu
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Re: v4.00 Turret Issues

Post by Vilmu » Fri, 16. Apr 21, 03:19

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 16. Apr 21, 00:34
That would be a completely different issue to the one described by the OP.
Turrets targetting ship modules? Probably yes. But did you even look at screenshot? That trajectory is way off, against a stationary target - out of range or not. OPs issue was about turrets not being able to hit their target due to where they are aiming. My screenshot is showing the shame behaviour against different type of target. If that is not close enough, then I'm sorry for even trying to report it. Forgot to open up the source code to see if it's related or not...

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Re: v4.00 Turret Issues

Post by CBJ » Fri, 16. Apr 21, 10:16

I think you missed my point. I was just letting you know that it's a separate issue and therefore that you'd need to create a separate thread about it in order for it to be seen properly. I'll split this out to save you the effort. :)

Vilmu
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Re: v4.00 Turret Issues

Post by Vilmu » Fri, 16. Apr 21, 15:21

CBJ wrote:
Fri, 16. Apr 21, 10:16
I think you missed my point. I was just letting you know that it's a separate issue and therefore that you'd need to create a separate thread about it in order for it to be seen properly. I'll split this out to save you the effort. :)
Oh, I guess the turrets aiming at engines is. Fair enough :P
But it was also meant to report that it happens against ships and their modules too. Not just some station modules (you did not specify if you were still talking about station modules only, so I wasn't sure if it's know issue or not).
As can be seen on the screenshot, whoever is shooting the station turrets, have taken something stronger than medical supplies.

I guess it's completely on me for hiding it behind unnecessary text, but it's there: "effectively failing at it" & "just doesn't know where to aim to hit them"

edit: Ah, I see.
The screenshot was taken in situation where I just happened to be around, so there's no save point near it. I'll keep and eye on shaking stations and try to make a save where that is happening right from the get go. Not sure when that will be, today, tomorrow?
But I must say, this started in 4.0 btw. Don't recall turrets targetting engine/modules or miss so badly in 3.30.
Last edited by Vilmu on Fri, 16. Apr 21, 16:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Turret aiming at engines

Post by CBJ » Fri, 16. Apr 21, 16:08

Part of the problem here is the terminology, particularly the word "modules". Station modules, which was what was being discussed in that thread, are big station sections. An attacker can aim perfectly at the centre of those, but still miss if the geometry of the module has a big hole in it at the target location.

What you're describing is the attackers trying to hit much smaller targets, such as turrets and engines. Those aren't "modules" as such; they also don't have holes in them. If an attacker is failing to hit one of those because it's simply not pointing its guns in the right direction, then that's a very different problem. It's also something we've done quite a bit of work on already - that was released in 4.00, and we're not currently aware of any further scenarios where it could still happen. A savegame showing it happening in your game would therefore be very helpful.

Vilmu
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Re: Turret aiming at engines

Post by Vilmu » Fri, 16. Apr 21, 17:15

I'll try to create some saves where this can be observed right from loading the save (see edit above). i'll edit them in to this post when I have them, but in the meantime here's what I've observed so far:
- Happens with ship turrets too, so ship vs. ship combat.
- They do sometimes target turrets too, but definitely really hate the engines.
- Doesn't seem to be exclusive to the new Terran ships, because I've almost lost some battles against K's and I's when my turrets suddenly switch target for the engines (got in line of sight of them?) and start missing, meanwhile the Xenon ship is <40% hull and now regaining most of its shields.

To me, overall, it feels like 'disable target' command is always turned on, and for everything. So, some of the the new 4.0 OOS code for ships going after modules might have slipped into in sector/high-attention too.

As by-product, this possibly sometimes breaks the 'disable target' command during boarding operations and ships almost completely stop shooting and manual right click attack makes them disable the target. Could just be the ships I was using (Jian). But that's probably a bug report of its own, so i'll do that when I have more than a sentence (a save) for it.

edit: Minor update for a :idea: -moment: Isn't default behaviour for boarding operations set to disable engines, unless the player changes it to something else at the start of it? Possibly related? Like, is it possible that one of my earliest boarding operations in early-game got glitched / somehow is now always on and now everything uses it during combat? That would kinda explain the hate for engines I've been observing, but not everything.

Update (saves):
Turned out to be harder than expected, as either the turrets were gone when I teleported in, or the ship(s) died before I got a scout into the system to teleport to. And also because destroyer weapon range makes them rarely to be in turret ranges.

Save 1: Tokyo vs. 2 Behemoths
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i712l8ues2cgh ... ehe.xml.gz
Fight is to your left on the map. Behemoth turrets clearly going for the engines of the Tokyo.

Save 2: K vs. TEL station
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fhstlnxcdkqyp ... ion.xml.gz
Fight is "south" from your location. Due to TEL plasma spam, I suggest pausing the game the moment it loads. Turrets seem to be going for the K turrets in this case (could be intentional), and not the engines (could be line of sight thing).

Save 3: K vs. Phoenix.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1bvxdywiiwn5u ... nix.xml.gz
Fight is far south from your location (next to a jump gate leading to scale plate). K turrets seem to actively target turrets and engines on the Phoenix. The phoenix dies relatively fast so might want to / have to reload few times for better observation.

Tried to hand-craft the situation, but was unable?:
Manually placed ships near the microchip station in Frontiers Edge. I suggest pausing as the game loads to avoid too many ships dying too fast.

Save 4: Combat started by me shooting at the station. Fight is right in front of you at microchip factory.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/acpbiymupeysu ... l01.xml.gz

Save 5: Same setup, but I was out of the system and combat started by order a ship to attack while out of sector. Fight is "north" of you at thesame microchip factory.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0cqw1x5kd01m9 ... l02.xml.gz
Last edited by Vilmu on Sat, 17. Apr 21, 14:56, edited 1 time in total.

Vilmu
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Re: Turret aiming at engines

Post by Vilmu » Sat, 17. Apr 21, 14:49

Potential cause from my observations and failed attempts to re-create: External View not granting proper in-sector combat calculations, so it's still using OOS behaviour. At the very least related / something similar (like my distance to the target).

Save 1 and 3 where this clearly happens, I've never been close to the targets (current distance is as close as I've been).
Save 2 it sometimes happens, but I'm quite close to the fight.
Save 4 and 5 (the failed attempts to re-create), I manually flew the ships into positions, so I had already been in radar range of them.

I also had to rename the save files to keep track of which is which, hopefully that's not a problem.

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