L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

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exogenesis
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L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by exogenesis » Sat, 17. Apr 21, 01:22

Getting an unreasonable difference between battles in low-attention & high-attention :

With player In-Sector :
Asgard + 2 Osaka + Syn
versus
6 Ks
--> XEN none destroyed, TER all destroyed

With player Out-of-Sector :
Asgard + 2 Osaka + Syn
versus
8 Ks & an I
-->XEN all destroyed, TER none destroyed (Asgard not even scratched)


I am guessing this is all about (TER) L-beam when OOS/IS ?
i.e.
IS : TER beams don't even tickle the XEN shields,
OOS : they are very effective
(at least what I think is happening).

Perhaps this should be at least a bit more similar...

Remember something like this with station-mounted L-beams,
where you could completely change the outcome of attacks by destroyers
by teleporting into high-attention range
- but I thought that got balanced somewhat a while ago ?

Here's a save so it can be played-out
(player is at the Moon sector, watching the battle start)
http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/save_002.xml.gz

exogenesis
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by exogenesis » Sat, 17. Apr 21, 19:09

I think the main problem is that with player OOS, L-Beams very quickly destroy all the XEN turrets,
and then the apparent higher DPS (OOS versus IS) kills the toothless XEN fairly quickly.

With player IS, the beams aren't hitting the XEN turrets, or if they are the DPS is very low.

Vilmu
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by Vilmu » Sat, 17. Apr 21, 19:28

Is the Asgard actually firing and/or hitting the ATF main battery while IS? Could be that OOS is giving it too high hit chance/fire rate or the AI forgets how to use it properly IS?

exogenesis
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by exogenesis » Sat, 17. Apr 21, 21:04

Maybe, perhaps it's that as well,
but even with no Asgard in the picture (i.e. just Syn/Osaka/Tokyo) the XEN lose all their turrets quickly OOS,
(probably due to L-Beam OOS 'accuracy').

Imperial Good
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by Imperial Good » Sat, 17. Apr 21, 23:16

The issue is almost certainly the main batteries. XEN ships are a lot weaker in low attention than high attention as their damage is entirely done by turrets. This is the opposite of destroyers and battleships of the other factions as there most of their low attention damage is done by guns. Guns not only never miss in low attention, but also last time I checked were unable to be destroyed. As such not only do the destroyers out DPS them in low attention, but they never miss. This quickly kills all their surface elements, all their S and M escorts and then wears them away fast. For perspective 11 Rattlesnakes will pretty much 2 cycle a K from full health in low attention taking as good as no damage, with the first calculation leaving it critical health. A constant stream of Ks is no match for them. In sector throw 11 Rattlesnakes against a single K and at least 1 of them will be almost totally destroyed as they fumble around trying to shoot anything, or face tanking all the XEN Gravatron turrets. Against a stream they will quickly falter.

exogenesis
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by exogenesis » Sun, 18. Apr 21, 00:47

OK therefore if I understand, all (TM) that would have to be done, to bring OOS closer to IS,
is give 'main battery' destroyers a chance of missing (moving targets) with those guns when OOS ?
(and also giving those guns a chance of being destroyed by enemy fire).

Seems somewhat unreasonable that something like this isn't already part of the OOS 'reduced calculations'.

All I was trying to see if the Terrans could cope with a full-on XEN take-over invasion,
by transporting all their shipyards & cap. ships into Earth at once.

But I can't progress in any satisfactory way due to this massive OOS/IS difference.
(I can't be IS in every sector at once, & OOS the outcomes are just blatently wrong).

LandogarX4
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by LandogarX4 » Sun, 18. Apr 21, 16:09

Wasn't 'improved' OOS calculations an item on the 4.0 beta patch notes? Seems much worse to me than before. Xenon used to be a threat OOS before the patch?!

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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 19. Apr 21, 07:51

exogenesis wrote:
Sun, 18. Apr 21, 00:47
OK therefore if I understand, all (TM) that would have to be done, to bring OOS closer to IS,
is give 'main battery' destroyers a chance of missing (moving targets) with those guns when OOS ?
(and also giving those guns a chance of being destroyed by enemy fire).

Seems somewhat unreasonable that something like this isn't already part of the OOS 'reduced calculations'.
Pretty much. The main batteries need as good as 0 chance to land hits on S and M sized ships, which is what can be usually observed in sector. Currently weapons like Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon and Main Battery work extremely well in low attention combat because they have very high paper damage and being guns they seem to never miss even against hyper agile S ships that are as good as impossible to hit in sector.

chip56
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by chip56 » Mon, 19. Apr 21, 08:56

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 19. Apr 21, 07:51

Pretty much. The main batteries need as good as 0 chance to land hits on S and M sized ships, which is what can be usually observed in sector. Currently weapons like Mass Driver, Plasma Cannon and Main Battery work extremely well in low attention combat because they have very high paper damage and being guns they seem to never miss even against hyper agile S ships that are as good as impossible to hit in sector.
At least in case of the mass driver i am actually willing to accept that they are good OOS, that way they are at least good for something. In case of the main batteries however its on the more annoying side since those have a purpose already.

In regards to OOS and IS i also noted that dumbfire missles seem to either not fire OOS or they always miss.
In my current game i accidently triggered a war with HOP (killed 1 ship in PAR during a patrol mission, it was part of a fleet which turned hostile in HOP space right next to my Anti Xenon defence plattform).
OOS i see 3 destroyeres happily firing at a station not recieving any damage. That station is pretty much spot on in the middle of the plot and has tons of beams, plasma guns and its own missle production complex to fill the dumbfire turrets. Dumbfire mk1 would have a range of 11km and thus should easily reach the destroyers and with 500 or so in storage you would expect to see some impact. However OOS i was watching that for quite a while and the destroyers stayed at max shields.
I teleported on the station, pressed f3 and guess what? The defence plattforms start firing and a couple seconds later the first destroyer goes boom.
So the dumbfire missles i build to ensure nothing can bombard the station dont do their job OOS...

Alm888
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Re: L-Beam problem ? TER vs XEN capital ship battles : OOS vs IS gives completely opposite outcome

Post by Alm888 » Wed, 21. Apr 21, 17:17

exogenesis wrote:
Sat, 17. Apr 21, 19:09
I think the main problem is that with player OOS, L-Beams very quickly destroy all the XEN turrets,
and then the apparent higher DPS (OOS versus IS) kills the toothless XEN fairly quickly.

With player IS, the beams aren't hitting the XEN turrets, or if they are the DPS is very low.
No, the problem is that TER L Beam Turrets are bugged and instead of damaging shields they restore them. And here is the follow-up test.

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