[MOD] SL_Rebalance - Ship Rebalance Mod

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dertien
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Re: [MOD] SL_Rebalance - Ship Rebalance Mod

Post by dertien » Sun, 28. Nov 21, 17:56

Great mod

What I would like to see is if it were possible for someone to create a flight model for X-4 ships that would make your pitch and your yaw (and of course also that of NPC's) dependent on your mass and your speed at that moment. A flight model that would mimic the maneuverability in normal flight to something that is going on while using travel speed, where your roll, pitch and yaw maneuverability is damped the faster you go - something that IMHO is logic, unless you spin your craft in the opposite direction with directional thrusters and use those to manoevre.


So, something like this:

LOW MASS (fighters, bombers S and M ships)

- Speed: 100% - Pitch/Yaw/Roll : 50% maneuverability (so it takes 10 seconds to make a full circle looping, 15 seconds for a 360°turn and 10 seconds for a full 360° roll)
- Speed: 66% - Pitch/Yaw/Roll: 75% maneuverability (so it takes 8 seconds to make a full circle looping, 10 seconds for a 360° turn and 8 seconds for a full 360° roll)
- Speed: 33% - Pitch/Yaw/Roll: 100% maneuverability (so it takes 5 seconds to make a full circle looping, 8 seconds for a 360° turn and 6 seconds for a full 360° roll)
- Speed: 0% - Pitch/Yaw/Roll: 20% maneuverability (so it takes 15 seconds to make a full circle looping, 20 seconds for a 360° turn and 13 seconds for a full 360° roll)

MEDIUM MASS (corvettes, frigates)

same as above but slower

L and XL class (carriers, destroyers cruisers)

Same as above, but even slower.

The issue I have had with all X games is that no matter how fast you go, you always spin on a dime. That should not be the case.

This would make for interesting 'dogfights'

Malchar
Posts: 395
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Re: [MOD] SL_Rebalance - Ship Rebalance Mod

Post by Malchar » Mon, 29. Nov 21, 21:17

dertien wrote:
Sun, 28. Nov 21, 17:56

The issue I have had with all X games is that no matter how fast you go, you always spin on a dime. That should not be the case.
Why that should not be the case ?

Inertia ?

inertia greaty depend on mass and mass of gravity. I space gravity is almost null. Friction is also about null. Big ship should turn on there axe as fast as small one, and accelerate faster. By the way egosoft can save money removing a lot of sound that have nothing to do in space.

For dogfight and physical you are looking for, I think a game like war thunder can offer you it, if you dont mind to play mp.

kmunoz
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Re: [MOD] SL_Rebalance - Ship Rebalance Mod

Post by kmunoz » Tue, 30. Nov 21, 02:35

dertien wrote:
Sun, 28. Nov 21, 17:56
What I would like to see is if it were possible for someone to create a flight model for X-4 ships that would make your pitch and your yaw (and of course also that of NPC's) dependent on your mass and your speed at that moment.
Under no circumstances should your pitch and yaw be dependent on your speed. That's not how physics works. This isn't Elite Dangerous's mid-20th century fighter plane flight model. To put it bluntly: the velocity "sweet spot" in E:D that everyone seems to just swoon over is *patently wrong* from a physics perspective. It is not, by any reasonable metric, a realistic spaceflight model.

Pitch and yaw are in no way linked to velocity, unless you're talking about atmospheric flight (due to friction and lift). Which we are not, because this is space. (The flight assist in X4 *seems* like atmospheric flight, but really it's more like micro-thrusting to maintain constant forward velocity after rotation.)

As for mass, it's *sort of* true that pitch and yaw (angular acceleration) would be dependent on mass, but not nearly as much as linear acceleration would be, especially if you assume that the cargo you're carrying has been carefully loaded to sit mainly at the rotational center of the ship.
The issue I have had with all X games is that no matter how fast you go, you always spin on a dime. That should not be the case.
That should absolutely 100% be the case.

X4's spaceflight model is superior to any other that tries to link pitch and yaw (and roll) to velocity.

(In fact, while I understand why pitch/roll/yaw are limited in travel drive + flight assist for gameplay reasons, I wish they weren't - I wish you had just as much rotational control in TD+FA as you do when you're in travel drive with flight assist off.)
Let's Play Poorly! - Suboptimal X4 Playthroughs

dertien
Posts: 274
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Re: [MOD] SL_Rebalance - Ship Rebalance Mod

Post by dertien » Wed, 1. Dec 21, 22:03

Thanks, but I finally found the Flight Assist off button, like in ED, and I just wish the NPC's assist would also be off. Shooting down fighters in X-Rebirth is not as challenging indeed as in ED :-) and no I don't need War Thunder, I have IL-2 and DCS in VR for that.

With Flight Assist on, ship motion just feel wrong in X-Rebirth, and yes I might be biased by Flash Gordon, ED and also by Star Wars Tie Fighter and the like, but I happen to like the flight model of these games. I do like Flight Assist off as well but was looking for something more assisted than just 'off', because unlike in HELIUM RAIN, I-WAR and I-WAR 2 the NPC's do not fly Assist off, it's not universal, its a player's choice.

Then there is something else Malchar. A big ship can in no way turn as fast as a small one, unless it has massive maneuvering thrusters, which is up for debate, but even Space-X ships don't have massive thrusters in a 6DOF. The thrust to weight (mass) ratio is there - doesn't matter if its in a vacuum or not. Even worse in a vacuum because air friction is not there to stop you from spinning. This is however thankfully not the case and those ships move just fine in X-Rebirth. The X4 travel drive and X3 infinite boost do give a realistic feel of the PATH your ship would follow when suddenly changing directions. What is not realistic is that indeed your nose does not seem to want to move and is damped. As said, in space no friction, so your nose will point as fast to your new destination as your side/top-thrusters allow it. So, the path should be damped, but the motion itself should not.

My bad for explaining it wrong. It's about 'path travelled' and not 'manoevrability'.

That is all.

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