is it me or X4 modding community is dying?

[MHDriver]

Hm,, I think dying is a bit of a stretch. With nearly 4500 hours in the game I have come to rely on the modding community to keep me interested in playing X4. The fact is I have taught myself some basic XML skills so that I can "mod the mods" so that they are more to my liking and I spend a lot of time doing just that as well as testing my modifications with old saves and new games. I agree that the best known modders have slowed a bit from the waterfall of mods right after the CV lock down but I am cool with it. I know modding is a hobby and many folks are busy adjusting to the new normal in RL. ES continues to update and roll out new content so between them and our modding community I am confident that there will enough variation in future content to keep me for one going for a few hundred more hours.

[Takiro Ryo]

XML might be easier to implement and generally more expressive, but I just can't get past the disgusting verbosity of it all. It looks awful and writing it is the worst kind of chore. The model that's used doesn't allow basic concepts like subroutines so code duplication is rampant. I just hate, hate, hate it all.

I might be the only one though. I wrote a translator a while back to convert the XML code to something I find more readable and exactly nobody cared.

I have been writing mods in various games and seeing the XML and how the logic syntax is defined in this game - It almost made me cry.
Who in his right mind would use XML for scripting in the first place? Hasn't egosot heard of LUA or any other embedded scripting language?

I'm an X veteran but new to modding the game. Modded other games before for my personal enjoyment and work as a professional developer. It took me two days to understand the basics of X's structure and "design philosophy". XML was also kind of a turn off, it's just so hard to read. It doesn't even bother me so much when just editing/adding wares but when you want to create MD scripts you just want to cry (honestly I was almost thinking if it wouldn't be more fun to write a modding tool instead of actually modding the game ). I'm sure Egosoft has some inhouse tool to create and edit these files and only uses XML as kind of an exchange format. Otherwise this would be impossible to maintain without losing their mind.

Another thing is the lack of documentation. The community did a decent job providing some examples and tutorials that help with the most basic things but while I was reading through the guides I found a lot of things that where outdated or lack important details. Some things work like modding Xr some things are specific to X4 it seems. However I understand that Egosoft doesn't and can't make it their priority to provide us with a complete and detailed documentation.

I don't think the modding community is dying, I used mods since v1.0 but a lot of things I used mods for before are now in vanilla game, like the crew transfers or other quality of life features. I see mods like this being replaced by mods that bring new original content, like ships, sectors, stories and the like but these take a lot of time to make, I guess.

[Accuracy]

XML might be easier to implement and generally more expressive, but I just can't get past the disgusting verbosity of it all. It looks awful and writing it is the worst kind of chore. The model that's used doesn't allow basic concepts like subroutines so code duplication is rampant. I just hate, hate, hate it all.

I might be the only one though. I wrote a translator a while back to convert the XML code to something I find more readable and exactly nobody cared.

I have been writing mods in various games and seeing the XML and how the logic syntax is defined in this game - It almost made me cry.
Who in his right mind would use XML for scripting in the first place? Hasn't egosot heard of LUA or any other embedded scripting language?

I'm an X veteran but new to modding the game. Modded other games before for my personal enjoyment and work as a professional developer. It took me two days to understand the basics of X's structure and "design philosophy". XML was also kind of a turn off, it's just so hard to read. It doesn't even bother me so much when just editing/adding wares but when you want to create MD scripts you just want to cry (honestly I was almost thinking if it wouldn't be more fun to write a modding tool instead of actually modding the game ). I'm sure Egosoft has some inhouse tool to create and edit these files and only uses XML as kind of an exchange format. Otherwise this would be impossible to maintain without losing their mind.

Another thing is the lack of documentation. The community did a decent job providing some examples and tutorials that help with the most basic things but while I was reading through the guides I found a lot of things that where outdated or lack important details. Some things work like modding Xr some things are specific to X4 it seems. However I understand that Egosoft doesn't and can't make it their priority to provide us with a complete and detailed documentation.

I don't think the modding community is dying, I used mods since v1.0 but a lot of things I used mods for before are now in vanilla game, like the crew transfers or other quality of life features. I see mods like this being replaced by mods that bring new original content, like ships, sectors, stories and the like but these take a lot of time to make, I guess.

I wish there was a proper modding API.
For instance, I would LOVE to rewrite the AI from scratch. But unfortunately such a modification is currently not possible as there is no exposure to any of the back-end AI functions.

[magitsu]

I dont think its dying
I think its a mix of two things

One is that X4 has by default a lot of features that traditionally got modded into older games. (Such as the true economy, dynamic sector ownership and wars)

Here's a good comparison. Mod functions that were integrated to Rebirth after its release.

v4.10 RC1: Counter of available ammunition display added to detail menus of ships and stations after work by forgotmysocks.

v4.10 b5: Capital ships fighting each other now prioritise each other's surface elements. Behaviour introduced by clj, cicero111 and w.evans.

v4.10 b1: Dedicated behaviour added for the Balor and Scuellus supporting their unique weapons after work by clj, cicero111, and w.evans.

v4.00 RC2: The option for Architect subordinates to trade system-wide was previously only available as part of YorrickVander's GSR mod.

v4.00 b6: MICT by w.evans: Station's launching defensive drones.

v4.00 b6: Automated Emergency Jump by bm01: Depending on skills, ships may attempt to jump or boost to safety after damage exceeds a threshold.

v4.00 b5: MultiAssignment by Phipsz: Added multi-select to Property Owned menu to support multiple orders, assignments and sales.

v4.00 b5: Trade Menu Cargo Hold Filter by blackmilan: Feature incorporated into the Trade Deals menu (not Trade Offers menu though).

v4.00 b4: Mission Computer by cyberfuzzie: A Bulletin Board was added for collating most missions.

v4.00 b3: Player Jump by euclid: JD for the Skunk.

v4.00 b2: Format Thousands by Jth: Event Monitor and Logbook notations no separate out 000's within long numbers.

v3.61: "Improved DPS calculations for launchers including one very wrong case of overpowered missile turrets": Based on player detective work.

v3.60: Clean Sidebar and Main Menu by Olympian: Removed striped backgrounds ("scan line effect") to aid readability.

v3.60: Realistic physics and full/assisted inertia by Realspace: Added ability to rotate 180o to fly backwards (amongst other things).

v3.60: OOZ ship building by ubuntufreakdragon: Did what it says on the tin - OOZ Ship Dealers became accessible via the map.

v3.60: Engineer Fix by bm01: Fixed engineer repairing hull too slowly if there are no other damaged elements. The "long wait" (up to 10 minutes) was triggered after each repair tick.

v3.50: Engineer Drone Fix by w.evans: Fixed an issue whereby docked Construction URVs were not being marked as available.

v3.50: Manager Fix by ubuntufreakdragon: Improved the way a Manager determined what a station needs, helping it to produce.

v3.50: SMUPS by w.evans: Added mining, construction & cargo drones to plot URV Forge (as of 3.60, still makes additional changes).

v3.50: AutoLooter by euclid: Beamed nearby inventory loot into the Skunk before the Container Magnet was added to the game.

v3.20: Marine Rebalance (by w.evans) and Boarding Options (by camus/Clownmug): Added info on boarding attack strength (as of 3.60, still makes additional changes).

v3.00: Recall Player Drones by YorrickVander: This mod allowed us to order the Skunk's drones to dock back up.

v3.00: Remove spawned trade ship wares by SilverXarrow: Prevented trader spawning full of wares to improve the game economy. In v3.00, 100% full cargo was changed to a lower, random % of cargo).

v2.50: Albion Civil (by Reaperxvii) and Real War (by IRaven): Added "civil war" behaviour between Plutarch and Heart of Albion+Canterans.

v2.50: Build Small Ships by Berserk Knight: Added the ability for medium shipyards to build small and medium ships.

v2.50: Core_shields by bobucles: Added shields to the hulls of capital ships.

v2.50: Targeting UI Extension by Observe: Added an external camera.

v2.50: Universal Menu System by Berserk Knight: Added additional slots to the radial menu in the era before we gained the sidebar.

v2.00: Never Enter Stations Again by Mad_Joker: "a major source of inspiration for our version of the functionality to allow most tasks to be performed without landing on stations" (CBJ, 20.05.2014).

v2.00: Manual Command Extension by Jack08: The mod added a series of commands for our ships that a form of which were part of v2.0.

v1.24: Targeting UI Extension by Observe: Added targetting functions such as for nearest enemy.

08.12.2013: Build in Maelstrom by csfelfoldi: Added station build locations to Sigma Sector when none were none were thought to exist.

https://www.egosoft.com:8444/confluence ... +X+Rebirth

Modding API or mod tools would be a great investment into the long tail of the game. I wager Litcube/Mayhem has been significantly responsible for X3 selling to this day. XR wasn't exactly saved by CWIR/NF, but they sure as heck look like proto X4. The mods are meaningful in keeping Egosoft afloat between games.

[Takiro Ryo]

Modding API or mod tools would be a great investment into the long tail of the game. I wager Litcube/Mayhem has been significantly responsible for X3 selling to this day. XR wasn't exactly saved by CWIR/NF, but they sure as heck look like proto X4. The mods are meaningful in keeping Egosoft afloat between games.

Would be cool to have but I doubt we get something like this before the last DLC is out since developing this would take resources away from the main project. I'd expect this to only happen (if at all) after no new content is in development for x4. And if game development is anything like usual software development, development of an X5 will probably start just after x4 is "done". So we probably never get dedicated modding tools by Egosoft especially since this would be another software that would need maintainance, support etc..

[magitsu]

Would be cool to have but I doubt we get something like this before the last DLC is out since developing this would take resources away from the main project. I'd expect this to only happen (if at all) after no new content is in development for x4. And if game development is anything like usual software development, development of an X5 will probably start just after x4 is "done". So we probably never get dedicated modding tools by Egosoft especially since this would be another software that would need maintainance, support etc..

True. Almost guaranteed there won't be any unless they'd make a plan to build one for themselves with the intention to release it later. Something just for the modders won't happen.

[user1679]

Personally I think the problem is the lack of documentation. I know several languages, including XML, lua and C++ but I feel like a total novice when it cmes to X4 modding.

I've extracted all the main game files and looked through them but it isn't very helpful. For example, a CUE can provide PARAMETERS when it is triggered. You can see in some of the XML files a reference to param or param2.indexOf{} but there's no documentation to explain what the params are (ships, players, npcs, etc) or what parameters are provided by what cue types.

People will say "just read the XSD or existing mods" but the problem is if your particular issue isn't covered by someone figuring it out can be so time consuming that giving up is almost inevitable. For example, I've been working on spawning an NPC based on certain criteria. So far I've not been able to find any way to determine what station the player is on when the game is loaded. There are several examples of how to do it on docking and other events but not game start / load.

If there was a more comprehensive documentation besides the X4 Rebirth wiki, modding would probably be very robust.

[aka1nas]

My main issue is that the base game still hasn't hooked me enough to want to spend the time modding it. I only did a few light scripts/mods for x3, but that was because the game drew me in enough that I wanted to tweak the few things that weren't working just right.

[Angsaar]

I'm always amused when this thread comes up considering the X4 Modding channel on Discord is pretty active...

Perhaps the post title could be updated to:

Is the X4 modding community dying? Join our Discord and find out!

[Baconnaise]

I'm always amused when this thread comes up considering the X4 Modding channel on Discord is pretty active...

Perhaps the post title could be updated to:

Is the X4 modding community dying? Join our Discord and find out!

I would think a better wording of OP would've been why the game community seems slow at times or small. The X series hasn't really been mainstream or big compared to other genres. If we were to say X series people would likely think X-Com instead. I still play Vicky 2 or SoaSE. The games are very niche, especially beyond the official support. The games aren't really attractive to big swathes of the population. It's just how it is in reality. Egosoft hasn't AFAIK purged the community around the older games which is commendable. If they were like EA or some other corporations the forums would be gone along with all archived data. Anyone remember Earth and Beyond? Many such cases with companies and games people loved.