Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

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Alm888
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Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by Alm888 » Sat, 8. Aug 20, 18:29

I've been amusing myself by reading the game files, particularly the "jobs.xml", describing what strength each faction should have. And here are my thoughts on what I have found. Namely, on one of the most famous wars in "X4: Foundations", the "ARG vs. HOP" one.


Let's start with Argnu Federation.

It has 1 (one) "Praetorian Guard" (or "Garden Gnome" :) ) fleet with the setting to protect core regions, usually chilling out in Argon Prime (until its time comes). This "fleet" consists of:
Flagship: Colossus Vanguard (in top notch loadout)
Fighter wing: 10 x Small Fighter (any type)
Escort: 2 x Behemoth Vanguard, 6 x Cerberus Vanguard, 24 x Small Fighter (any type)
1 x Nomad Vanguard

This "mighty fleet" does not have the "factionlogic" tag, so the AI will not use it in any defensive operations.

Argon's Mobile Defense consists of 6 fleets (one per sector) with the authorized strength of:
Flagship: Behemoth Vanguard
Escort: 3 x Cerberus Vanguard, 12 x Small Fighter (any type)

In the reserve there are 2…11 Behemoth Vanguard (2 per cluster).

This is accompanied by light support:
1) 8…20 drone carrier Cerberus Vanguard class frigates (2 per sector) with 8…12 drones each;
2) 30…50 Small Fighter squadrons (2 per zone) of 1 heavy leader (Quasar or Eclipse class) and 3 light escort fighters.

Argon Federation does have 35…90 (1 per sector) sector patrol frigate squadrons, consisting of a Cerberus Vanguard and 4 x Small Fighter (any type) escort ships each, but these squadrons do not have the "factionlogic" tag and can not be used in large offensive/defensive operations.

====================================================================

HOP does not believe in carrier fleets and does not employ one. But!

HOP has 13! Expeditionary Fleets (with the quota of 1 per sector).

A typical "HOP Expeditionary Fleet":
Flagship: Odysseus Sentinel
Escort: 6 x Odysseus Sentinel, 14 x Medium Military Ship (Gorgon Sentinel or Nemesis Sentinel), 28 x Small Fighter (any type)
1 x Atlas Sentinel

As a reserve HOP has from 2…11 patrol Odysseus Sentinel class ships with the quota of 2 per cluster (both can be used to aid the fleet in need simultaneously, as HOP's enemies are most probably not able to provide opposition in more than one front-line).

As a "light cavalry" support HOP has:
1) 50…80 Heavy S Fighter (Ares class) Squadrons, with the quota of 1 per zone, with the escort of 2 Light S fighters each;
2) 3…9 Corvette Squadrons (1 per sector), consisting of 1 group leader and 2 escort Nemesis Sentinel corvettes;
3) 5…15 (2 per sector) drone carrier frigates (Gorgon Sentinel) with 5…8 drones each.

====================================================================


So, in a hypothetical battle between ARG and HOP in a neutral sector without any 3rd party involvement the sides can muster the strength of:

ARG Side:
3 x Behemoth Vanguard
5 x Cerberus Vanguard
24 x Small Fighter (optionally joined by at lest one Quasar/Eclipse + 3 light fighter wing)

HOP Side:
9 x Odysseus Sentinel
19 x Medium Military Ships (with at least 3 Nemesis Sentinel)
28 x Small Fighters (optionally joined by at lest one Ares Class fighter wing and 2 light escort fighters)

Sounds like a fair fight. :D

But there is more! Up until now we assumed both economies are going strong and the factions are spending their resources wisely and their fleets are properly financed, but is it so?

There is one nuance!
Construction Vessels
Argon Federation is prescribed to have 15 Behemoth Vanguard class CV's with another 10 ones dedicated explicitly for "Player Only" build tasks in order to mitigate the "mass-busy CVs issue", thus totaling in 25 Behemoth Vanguard CV's. One could assume it is the Argon's Grand Plan to douse HOP in Behemoths till it starts to drown, but no, these two groups have the quota of 1 per sector, so HOP is free to massacre them one-by-one.
Holy Order of the Pontifex on the contrary, has only 6 Heracles Sentinel in each of corresponding jobs, more than twice less!
So, while ARG is busy rebuilding its lost CV's, HOP is happily popping its fleets of Odysseus class Doom Machines.

P.S. It would be interesting to compare HOP's strength with PAR and XEN.

exogenesis
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by exogenesis » Sat, 8. Aug 20, 19:49

Be interesting to know the max. fleet(s) of HOP / Paranid after they merge to become TRI,
although they're not aggressive to Argon anymore, seems they muster a pretty big amarda :

In this screenshot I saw a TRI 'fleet' with 23 Odysseus & 3 resupply Atlas + all the fighters !

http://www.Exogenesis.co.uk/TRIFleet.jpg

Imperial Good
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 10. Aug 20, 06:17

Apparently the god engine (I think that is the right name?) can order more ships/jobs as required, outside of those specified by the jobs.xml file.

The main reason ARG is bound to lose is because the Behemoth Vanguard is kind of rubbish. Sure it is better than a Teladi Phoenix, but those are also rubbish. I have seen single HOP Odysseus Sentinel destroyers rank up a solo killing spree of 100 TEL S fights, 10 MIN M frigates, 3 L Behemoth Sentinels, 2 Phoenix ships and 2 supply ships. I had to stop ship production as a single HOP Odysseus Sentinel was destroying ships of all classes faster than I could produce them.

The only faction that stands a chance at stopping HOP is PAR as their destroyers are on equal ground. Neither Argon and Teladi have ships capable of going toe to toe with the Odysseus. In order for a fight to be fair if HOP sends 9 Odysseus Sentinels, then ARG would need to send 18 or more Behemoth Vanguards to stand a chance.

This problem is not limited to HOP. ZYA vs ARG is a similar problem, assuming the Xenon do not bulldoze their economy early game. A single ZYA Rattlesnake can kill many Behemoth destroyers, and they field quite a number of them.

Alm888
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by Alm888 » Mon, 10. Aug 20, 19:26

exogenesis wrote:
Sat, 8. Aug 20, 19:49
Be interesting to know the max. fleet(s) of HOP / Paranid after they merge to become TRI,
although they're not aggressive to Argon anymore, seems they muster a pretty big amarda :

In this screenshot I saw a TRI 'fleet' with 23 Odysseus & 3 resupply Atlas + all the fighters !
The aforementioned fleet is most probably the HOP/PAR leftovers, as there is a clear explanation in the file that in case a side starts with more ships than allowed by quota, the ships will not de-spawn (it is simply that new ones can not be built). Provided I did not make any mistakes, the normal "Obliteration Fleet" shall be a little bit more tame (emphasis on the "little" ;) ).

Here is the rundown of the "REALM OF THE TRINITY" (or "Trinity of the Realm", as per the in-file comment).

It seems, TRI consists of joined forces of PAR and HOP branches, as well as some common divisions.

PAR side:

Carrier fleet -- this fleet will be used in faction logic!
Flagship: Zeus
Fighter wing: 10 x Small Fighter (any type)
Escort: 6 x Odysseus
1 x Atlas

Standard fleet (14 max, 1 per sector):
Flagship: Odysseus
Escort: 1 x Medium Military Ship (Gorgon or Nemesis), 2 x Small Fighter (any type)

Light support:
1) 5…12 Corvette (2 per sector). That's right, a single ship without escort

HOP side:

Our favourite "HOP Expeditionary Fleet" makes a comeback (max 13 per Galaxy, 1 per sector):
Flagship: Odysseus
Escort: 6 x Odysseus, 7 x Medium Military Ship (Gorgon or Nemesis), 14 x Small Fighter (any type)
1 x Atlas

Light support:
1) 3…9 Corvette Squadrons (1 per sector): 3 x Nemesis


Now, to the shared divisions:
1) The reserve of 3…17 (2 per cluster) patrol Odysseus class ships;
2) 66…107 fighter wings (1 per zone) of an Ares group leader and 2 x Small Fighter (any type);
3) 7…20 drone carrier (2 per sector) frigates (with 5…8 drones).

=============================================================

So, in a hypothetical war the TRI can use:
1) 1 x Zeus (with 10 figher craft);
2) 2 x Atlas resupply ship;
3) 16 x Odysseus (PAR and HOP branches combined!!!);
4) 15 x Medium Military Ship (including at least 4 Nemesis);
5) 16 x Small Fighter.

Well, that, plus some freestanding fighter wings from the shared divisions.
While it should be noted that while the "HOP Expeditionary Fleet" has lost half of its Medium Military Ship and associated fighter craft support, the 7 Oddys are there. :) This makes a truly fearsome fleet, but they can have only one such fleet, as this "Sword of Judgment" includes the PAR carrier fleet (the only battle-worthy PAR combat division).

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 10. Aug 20, 06:17
Apparently the god engine (I think that is the right name?) can order more ships/jobs as required, outside of those specified by the jobs.xml file.
As far as I can understand, the GOD script was active in X3. In X4 the god.xml file still exists, but I believe it is used in a new game initialization process, placing:
1) 3.0 plot landmarks;
2) Anomalies (all types: fixed, random, statically linked);
3) Xenon Installations (including aqueducts and turreted asteroids), Khaak Installations;
4) important faction stations (Wharves/Shipyards and so on);
5) Player QH for "scientific gamestart";
6) faction economies.
Having a "god script" in a game with fluid, dynamic economy (such as X4) is against its nature.
Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 10. Aug 20, 06:17
The main reason ARG is bound to lose is because the Behemoth Vanguard is kind of rubbish.
Ship effectiveness comparison is another topic entirely. Sure, the Phoenix has an idiotic design, with turrets that can not be used simultaneously with the main caliber guns (and most of the time even with each other!), but the 99,99% of battles are being conducted in OOS, thus the design does not matter. It is a simple numbers game: (s)he who has most guns wins. And with the current quota HOP will most of the time have an upper hand.

P.S. Behemoth is not bad: its main caliber has better rate of fire (than that of Oddy), the profile is slim and both L turrets can be used simultaneously with the main guns.
Behemoth is not bad, it is just the Oddy is an overpowered hair dryer BS with the sole access to M dock among all destroyers. :D

Imperial Good
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 11. Aug 20, 04:29

Alm888 wrote:
Mon, 10. Aug 20, 19:26
As far as I can understand, the GOD script was active in X3. In X4 the god.xml file still exists, but I believe it is used in a new game initialization process, placing:
Maybe I used the wrong word. But it is my understanding that there is a faction logic engine that can add additional jobs beyond those specified by the job data file as required based on dynamic game state. This especially applies to stations.
Alm888 wrote:
Mon, 10. Aug 20, 19:26
Ship effectiveness comparison is another topic entirely. Sure, the Phoenix has an idiotic design, with turrets that can not be used simultaneously with the main caliber guns (and most of the time even with each other!), but the 99,99% of battles are being conducted in OOS, thus the design does not matter. It is a simple numbers game: (s)he who has most guns wins. And with the current quota HOP will most of the time have an upper hand.
Except ZYA and HOP does not need more ships to win. Each of their ships is statistically better. This is especially the case in out of sector combat since the Odysseus has twice the L turrets of the Behemoth and often a ton better loadout choice. As I mentioned, I have seen single HOP Odysseus Sentinel ships destroy a ludicrous number of ARG, ANT and MIN L and XL ships solo on top of never ending streams of S ships those factions sent.

TheMandalorian
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by TheMandalorian » Tue, 11. Aug 20, 15:49

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 11. Aug 20, 04:29
Alm888 wrote:
Mon, 10. Aug 20, 19:26
As far as I can understand, the GOD script was active in X3. In X4 the god.xml file still exists, but I believe it is used in a new game initialization process, placing:
Maybe I used the wrong word. But it is my understanding that there is a faction logic engine that can add additional jobs beyond those specified by the job data file as required based on dynamic game state. This especially applies to stations.
I can support that statement. job.xml and god.xml seem to define quotas for ships and stations. By default the quota of e.g. refined metal stations for the galaxy can be exceeded by factor to if the factionlogic decides another station is needed.

LandogarX4
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by LandogarX4 » Wed, 12. Aug 20, 04:17

I have many times observed (OOS, via satellites) the HOP 'expeditionary fleet' in action in Second Contact Flashpoint. 7+ Odysseus really destroy anything the Argon throw at them. The fact that the Argon just trickle in their destroyers one by one instead of creating a fleet certainly does not help, but as Imperial Good notes, the Behemoth is so bad in OOS combat that even a concentrated fleet would have no effect against the HOP incursions.

Despite how overpowered the HOP fleet is, however, the faction as a whole is not that much of an issue in my game. That is because there is only one large HOP fleet, and they have 3 fronts to fight. So after they spent some time wiping out Argon assets, they will leave the system again to fight elsewhere. In the meantime, the Argon usually manage to destroy any HOP stations until they return (I'm helping the Argon economy a lot though, without that SC FP might be lost easily).

So it's not like the huge HOP fleet is necessarily an issue for game balance. In fact, I like the fact that there is some variety in how factions behave, instead of them being carbon copies of each other. I would like to see some improvements to OOS calculations though. The goal should be to have IS and OOS outcomes to be as similar as possible, without creating too much computational load. I'm sure some tweaks can be made to improve OOS performance of the Behemoth and other under-performing ships (for example by taking into account weapons ranges and 'target size'/accuracy) at some basic level.

Alm888
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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by Alm888 » Wed, 12. Aug 20, 11:27

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 11. Aug 20, 04:29
Maybe I used the wrong word. But it is my understanding that there is a faction logic engine that can add additional jobs beyond those specified by the job data file as required based on dynamic game state. This especially applies to stations.
TheMandalorian wrote:
Tue, 11. Aug 20, 15:49
I can support that statement. job.xml and god.xml seem to define quotas for ships and stations. By default the quota of e.g. refined metal stations for the galaxy can be exceeded by factor to if the factionlogic decides another station is needed.
I believe you both are wrong and not wrong at the same time.
Yes, AI can add more ships as per station requests, but that does not contradict the "jobs.xml" file. On the contrary, in the file there are jobs specifically dedicated to stations e. g.

Code: Select all

<!-- Station Trader Jobs, by request only -->
  <job id="argon_stationtrader_m" name="{20204,801}">
    <modifiers rebuild="false" commandeerable="false"/>
    <orders>
      <order order="TradeRoutine" default="true">
        <param name="maxbuy" value="5"/>
      </order>
    </orders>
    <basket basket="all_container"/>
    <category faction="argon" tags="[stationtrader]" size="ship_m"/>
    <quota galaxy="0" maxgalaxy="10"/>
    <location class="galaxy" macro="xu_ep2_universe_macro" faction="argon" relation="member" comparison="ge"/>
    <environment buildatshipyard="true"/>
    <ship>
      <select faction="argon" tags="[trader, container]" size="ship_m"/>
      <loadout>
        <level min="0" max="0.6"/>
      </loadout>
      <owner exact="argon" overridenpc="true"/>
    </ship>
  </job>
Please note the comment stating this job is per station request.
Besides, the "god.xml" prescribes starting stations, but does not limit total number of stations. If AI decides it needs another 50+ "Pharmaceutical Goods" stations, then so be it (Hello, version 2.50HF1! :D ).
LandogarX4 wrote:
Wed, 12. Aug 20, 04:17
Despite how overpowered the HOP fleet is, however, the faction as a whole is not that much of an issue in my game. That is because there is only one large HOP fleet, and they have 3 fronts to fight. So after they spent some time wiping out Argon assets, they will leave the system again to fight elsewhere. In the meantime, the Argon usually manage to destroy any HOP stations until they return (I'm helping the Argon economy a lot though, without that SC FP might be lost easily).
Just give them time!
Their "Doom Fleets" are sector-limited. The more they own, the more they can afford. In one of my games (11 in-game days) the HOP flooded the "Second Contact II" with one such fleet, keeping ANT and ARG preoccupied (even with XEN keeping silent in "Hatikva's Choise"!), while crushing PAR in "Pious Mists". The "Atiya's Misfortune I" battle for a long time was a stalemate with XEN being the formal owners of the contested sector. But that was until PAR were crushed (while waging the other guy's war in "Hewa's Twin I", even owning it for a little while), losing all of their land barring "Trinity Sanctum VII". Their situation seems hopeless despite me building ships for them non-stop (in "Grand Exchange I"). This is because the AI does not know how to assemble a fleet in the non-owned sector (i. e. "Bright Promise") and does not know better than send all those ships in dead-end "Trinity Sanctum VII" one-by-one right in the hands of another HOP "Doom Fleet" camping right beside both (TSVII and BP) gates in "Trinity Sanctum III".
After that HOP was free to ravage both "Atyia's Misfortune" and "Frontier Edge" and invade "The Void" and now has almost obliterated ANT with its third "Doom Fleet".
All of that while doing OK squashing XEN in the "Hewa's Twin and Beyond" cluster with its fourth "Doom Fleet".

And the quota on the "Doom Fleets" is 13!!!

I have no problems with a faction that amasses all its strength in one fist instead of spreading out. But the HOP is allowed to have just plain more of these fleets as well.
LandogarX4 wrote:
Wed, 12. Aug 20, 04:17
In fact, I like the fact that there is some variety in how factions behave, instead of them being carbon copies of each other. I would like to see some improvements to OOS calculations though. The goal should be to have IS and OOS outcomes to be as similar as possible, without creating too much computational load. I'm sure some tweaks can be made to improve OOS performance of the Behemoth and other under-performing ships (for example by taking into account weapons ranges and 'target size'/accuracy) at some basic level.
Agreed!

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Re: Why ARG is Bound to Lose, or ARG vs. HOP War Analysis According to Game Scripts

Post by Revolution Rising » Sun, 30. Aug 20, 03:09

Got to hope we're going to get some re-balancing soon on this.

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