HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Please post any spoilers for X4: Foundations here.

Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum

Post Reply
aard00
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun, 2. Aug 20, 01:55
x4

HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by aard00 » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 12:45

In my game HOP are all dead except 1 shipyard and 1 trading station in Holy Vision. Obviously my rep is -30.

I'm at the start of the Paranid Civil War quest where Dal is asking me if I want to help improve relations between HOP and PAR.

Questions:

1. If I completely destroy HOP, which is what I want to do, can this quest still progress somehow or is it dead?
2. To raise Rep with HOP again, would this work: destroy all turrets and drones on the shipyard so I can't be targeted, and then kill criminal mass traffic for a very long time?
3. What are my other options, if any, to move this quest on to the next step?

Thank you!

Raevyan
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sat, 4. Oct 08, 17:35
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by Raevyan » Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:40

You’ll need +10 rep with both paranid factions for the plot. Theoretically killing mass traffic should work. You could also kill Par/Ant/Arg/Xen ships near their stations to gain rep faster. That is if there are some around.

aard00
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun, 2. Aug 20, 01:55
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by aard00 » Mon, 14. Sep 20, 21:02

rene6740 wrote:
Sat, 12. Sep 20, 19:40
You’ll need +10 rep with both paranid factions for the plot. Theoretically killing mass traffic should work. You could also kill Par/Ant/Arg/Xen ships near their stations to gain rep faster. That is if there are some around.
Thank you!


So I can confirm that option 2 is not just theory, with the optimum seeming to be:

. Fly to station.
. After a couple of minutes, kill the criminal mass ship that spawns.
. Teleport out of sector (or very far away) to reset the spawn, then back.
. Repeat.

Poor guys, they're only carrying Argnu Steaks for crying out loud, and there I am wiping them out, leaving their families to go hungry!


Gameplay wise that's a very yawny (and to me, wincey) mechanic though. And the other options, kindly offered by rene6740 and also summarised here also don't seem too enjoyable to play either.

Chiefly these are:
. Lure friends close to the station, then blow them up. (Morality quite aside, I'd need to first build a station as bait, because no stations those friends can trade with are anywhere near.)
. Spend an awful long time hunting for and then luring XEN/KHK close to the station, then blow them up. (Haven't seen any in Holy Vision, so I assume they randomly spawn very far out.)

So to any ears with influence, I would offer the following.

Given that the game is so open, and the AI all of it's own can quite happily cause HOP to go rampaging across the galaxy until the player steps in, and that we're talking about a main quest, I think that quest really needs an out for these situations. I almost gave up on it and didn't bother.

Perhaps the player making reparations to HOP by building stations or ships and then transferring control of those to them? That still doesn't sit well because HOP have been real warmongering sh*ts in my game, and deserve nothing other than complete obliteration! But it would be another option to play.

I don't know, but I think it needs something to make this more enjoyable and less of a pain point.

That's my view. Thanks for listening! :)
Last edited by aard00 on Tue, 15. Sep 20, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

Imperial Good
Moderator (English)
Moderator (English)
Posts: 4750
Joined: Fri, 21. Dec 18, 18:23
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by Imperial Good » Mon, 14. Sep 20, 21:34

aard00 wrote:
Mon, 14. Sep 20, 21:02
That still doesn't sit well because HOP have been real warmongering sh*ts in my game, and deserve nothing other than complete obliteration! But it would be another option to play.
The issue is due to poor balance of HOP as a faction. Only HOP and ZYA wield doom fleets and unlike ZYA who suffer from bad management the HOP economy is usually quite strong. No other factions can handle their fleets because between inferior ships and smaller fleet sizes they never amass enough firepower in a single place to be even close to comparable. Additionally HOP destroyers have 2 shield generators and longer range so suffer less from hull wear-down when attacking stations than their only other rival, ZYA which only have 1 weaker shield generator. Then there is the fact that ZYA and HOP are at peace with each other so the only faction that could stand a chance at stopping them cannot, if the user even owned the DLC.

The issue is poor balance with Paranid designed destroyers and fleet sizes. HOP not only have the largest destroyer fleets by a significant amount but each destroyer is technically superior both in and out of sector to anything the Argon and Teladi factions can field by an order of magnitude. As such against the multiple HOP doom fleets there is nothing those factions can do and they will destroy anything they desire with minimal losses. PAR which has equal ship designs also loses out badly due to inferior numbers. The only time HOP ever loses is if the player dictates they do so or if they are unlucky and do not respond fast enough to a Xenon Branch 9 Destroyer I that solos their shipyard and/or warf which leaves them vulnerable to wear down over time as their ships split up for different duties.

The main doom fleets of HOP should only be used to for defence due to their size. Additionally both Argon and Teladi destroyers need a buff either stat wise, or the number that they field in each fleet. Currently a HOP Odysseus can solo 2 Phoenix destroyers at the same time.

ZYA suffers a similar problem purely because their destroyers are even more over powered in ship-to-ship combat. In out-of-sector combat no number of S or M ships can win against a few destroyers since every attack tick they kill 5 odd each due to poor gun damage calculations. I have literally had a single Rattlesnake with gun mods installed solo >100 Xenon S/M ships at once and all were dead in under 15 seconds. They only lose out due to their bad economy caused by their poor AI suiciding their Rattlesnakes against Xenon defence platforms (they are too close range with too little shield for this) and all their traders inside Xenon sectors (no blacklist for enemy).

aard00
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun, 2. Aug 20, 01:55
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by aard00 » Tue, 15. Sep 20, 00:29

Imperial Good wrote:
Mon, 14. Sep 20, 21:34
The issue is due to poor balance of HOP as a faction. Only HOP and ZYA wield doom fleets and unlike ZYA who suffer from bad management the HOP economy is usually quite strong. No other factions can handle their fleets because between inferior ships and smaller fleet sizes they never amass enough firepower in a single place to be even close to comparable. Additionally HOP destroyers have 2 shield generators and longer range so suffer less from hull wear-down when attacking stations than their only other rival, ZYA which only have 1 weaker shield generator. Then there is the fact that ZYA and HOP are at peace with each other so the only faction that could stand a chance at stopping them cannot, if the user even owned the DLC.

The issue is poor balance with Paranid designed destroyers and fleet sizes. HOP not only have the largest destroyer fleets by a significant amount but each destroyer is technically superior both in and out of sector to anything the Argon and Teladi factions can field by an order of magnitude. As such against the multiple HOP doom fleets there is nothing those factions can do and they will destroy anything they desire with minimal losses. PAR which has equal ship designs also loses out badly due to inferior numbers. The only time HOP ever loses is if the player dictates they do so or if they are unlucky and do not respond fast enough to a Xenon Branch 9 Destroyer I that solos their shipyard and/or warf which leaves them vulnerable to wear down over time as their ships split up for different duties.

The main doom fleets of HOP should only be used to for defence due to their size. Additionally both Argon and Teladi destroyers need a buff either stat wise, or the number that they field in each fleet. Currently a HOP Odysseus can solo 2 Phoenix destroyers at the same time.

ZYA suffers a similar problem purely because their destroyers are even more over powered in ship-to-ship combat. In out-of-sector combat no number of S or M ships can win against a few destroyers since every attack tick they kill 5 odd each due to poor gun damage calculations. I have literally had a single Rattlesnake with gun mods installed solo >100 Xenon S/M ships at once and all were dead in under 15 seconds. They only lose out due to their bad economy caused by their poor AI suiciding their Rattlesnakes against Xenon defence platforms (they are too close range with too little shield for this) and all their traders inside Xenon sectors (no blacklist for enemy).
Wow! Super interesting, thank you! I'd never considered that perspective. I always assumed HOPs chances were dictated by RNG and that they didn't always overwhelm. Clearly you're in a much better position gauge otherwise, and yes, from that it does sound like the problem would go away with improved balance. It would only become an issue if the player went out of their way to wreck HOP (or PAR, I guess), but then they would be responsible instead of the current game mechanic forcing their hand. Having to deal with that fallout would then become reasonable.

dtpsprt
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by dtpsprt » Tue, 15. Sep 20, 05:45

To be serious, who in his right mind would try to put a stop to HOP? And WHY?

Yes on the first 3-4 playthroughs I was amazed at what they achieved, even afraid a little. Then, with the advent of 3.0, Dal Busta's friend explains that PAR and HOP will never destroy each other.

What to do? What to do? Ahhh yes!!! Just like in the Spear of the Patriarch gamestart. Do not shoot at them, just make sure their opponents are well equipped and (most importantly) supplied. Funny as it seems, supplying ARG, ANT and TEL with Nividium works wonders (don't ask me why, ask the devs) both against PAR and Xenon (Here is the obvious need of early Advanced/Expert Autominers and Autotraders).

That said, How can someone reach -30 against a faction that he starts either at 0 or -9 at worst?
In Fires of Defeat you start with -21 against ZYA and capturing 5-6 Dargons, 4 Chimeras (that means that you have also killed a good portion of them too) you can take on the ZYA Fleet and get your revenge before even starting to search for the PHQ mission. You end up with -26. At -26 you are still able to enter their systems in a courier (the obvious use of the Callisto that Hatikvah so generously give you) and start shooting Criminal traffic and luring Xenon close to their Stations to get to -19 with them, when you can enter with a warship to do the same, but in a more serious, meaningful and fast way.
In Spear of the Patriarch you start with -21 against the Argon and -15 with ANT. Just built factories and supply ZYA to take over the Argon Systems. You think that if you take the systems yourself you'll be getting taxes? No way, not even money for the plots!!! You use the Ring Highway to go into Hatikvah's Choice I through Teladi space, get the Callisto, rinse and repeat... The ZYA (with your supply lines) take over the three systems, one way or the other ARG can not go there fast enough to defend them and they are not self sustained.

Then, are you sure you can strip the HOP Shipyard of turrets and stay long enough before their Fleets arrive to get your rep below -28 with them? Teleport out? What about the ship you came in with?

You can give it a try but I would suggest to put this playthrough in the "freezer" for the off chance that Egosoft makes some changes in diplomacy (fat chance IMHO) and start another one with more bigger picture view and thinking...

P.S. The HOP are not OP, thy are the smallest (in systems) faction, so they have short supply lines and can build quickly. The others are more spread (again where early game Autortaders and Advanced/Expert Autominers make all the difference), so they need more time to rebuild from their loses and they are spread thin cause they have too many fronts to fight (especially the Argon) and too many systems to defend.

aard00
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun, 2. Aug 20, 01:55
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by aard00 » Tue, 15. Sep 20, 11:56

dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 15. Sep 20, 05:45
To be serious, who in his right mind would try to put a stop to HOP? And WHY?

Yes on the first 3-4 playthroughs I was amazed at what they achieved, even afraid a little. Then, with the advent of 3.0, Dal Busta's friend explains that PAR and HOP will never destroy each other.

What to do? What to do? Ahhh yes!!! Just like in the Spear of the Patriarch gamestart. Do not shoot at them, just make sure their opponents are well equipped and (most importantly) supplied. Funny as it seems, supplying ARG, ANT and TEL with Nividium works wonders (don't ask me why, ask the devs) both against PAR and Xenon (Here is the obvious need of early Advanced/Expert Autominers and Autotraders).

That said, How can someone reach -30 against a faction that he starts either at 0 or -9 at worst?
In Fires of Defeat you start with -21 against ZYA and capturing 5-6 Dargons, 4 Chimeras (that means that you have also killed a good portion of them too) you can take on the ZYA Fleet and get your revenge before even starting to search for the PHQ mission. You end up with -26. At -26 you are still able to enter their systems in a courier (the obvious use of the Callisto that Hatikvah so generously give you) and start shooting Criminal traffic and luring Xenon close to their Stations to get to -19 with them, when you can enter with a warship to do the same, but in a more serious, meaningful and fast way.
In Spear of the Patriarch you start with -21 against the Argon and -15 with ANT. Just built factories and supply ZYA to take over the Argon Systems. You think that if you take the systems yourself you'll be getting taxes? No way, not even money for the plots!!! You use the Ring Highway to go into Hatikvah's Choice I through Teladi space, get the Callisto, rinse and repeat... The ZYA (with your supply lines) take over the three systems, one way or the other ARG can not go there fast enough to defend them and they are not self sustained.

Then, are you sure you can strip the HOP Shipyard of turrets and stay long enough before their Fleets arrive to get your rep below -28 with them? Teleport out? What about the ship you came in with?

You can give it a try but I would suggest to put this playthrough in the "freezer" for the off chance that Egosoft makes some changes in diplomacy (fat chance IMHO) and start another one with more bigger picture view and thinking...

P.S. The HOP are not OP, thy are the smallest (in systems) faction, so they have short supply lines and can build quickly. The others are more spread (again where early game Autortaders and Advanced/Expert Autominers make all the difference), so they need more time to rebuild from their loses and they are spread thin cause they have too many fronts to fight (especially the Argon) and too many systems to defend.
Appreciate the reply. I'll try to answer a couple of points. As I mentioned in my initial post, in my game HOP only have 2 stations left. That really does mean nothing else. So with station defenses gone I can sit around outside all day with zero risk. I wiped them out a long time ago because by around 1500 hours they'd exapanded across the entire south-west, killing and taking allied sectors at will, and when they started hitting Antigone Memorial, I said enough.

dtpsprt
Posts: 2794
Joined: Wed, 6. Nov 02, 20:31
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by dtpsprt » Tue, 15. Sep 20, 16:57

aard00 wrote:
Tue, 15. Sep 20, 11:56

Appreciate the reply. I'll try to answer a couple of points. As I mentioned in my initial post, in my game HOP only have 2 stations left. That really does mean nothing else. So with station defenses gone I can sit around outside all day with zero risk. I wiped them out a long time ago because by around 1500 hours they'd exapanded across the entire south-west, killing and taking allied sectors at will, and when they started hitting Antigone Memorial, I said enough.
In that case you can surely sit around all day long, be sure you "uplift" them a bit before you start the Paranid Plot.

aard00
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun, 2. Aug 20, 01:55
x4

Re: HOP Rep -30. Any options for Paranid Civil War?

Post by aard00 » Mon, 21. Sep 20, 20:11

dtpsprt wrote:
Tue, 15. Sep 20, 16:57
In that case you can surely sit around all day long, be sure you "uplift" them a bit before you start the Paranid Plot.
Actually the answer to that assumption turned out to be: Yes. And no!

Are we sitting comfortably?

Because for a while there, I was about to come barging into this forum to post in screaming all-caps:

CHEAT! CHEAT! CHEAT! THE BL**DY GAME IS CHEATING!!!!!

How unsatisfying is that!?!?!? After all this time I spent obliterating every single HOP asset bar 1 Shipyard and 1 Trading Station!

THE GAME IS NOW CHEATING ON ME!!!!!

ROTTERS!!!

For there I was, staring at the battered remnants of HOP's final Shipyard; its storage modules completely wrecked; its defenses destroyed... I'd been taking a break from shooting down those pesky criminal transports. But when I looked up, all around me were HOP Ares, Gorgons, Chthonios, Plutus, Tethys... the works!

Whaaaa!!! They don't have a Shipyard! They don't have a Wharf!

How!?!?!

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE!?!!!?

CHEATS!!!!! CHEEEEEEAAAAAATTTTTSSSSSSS!!!!

Cue massive panic to get some of my fleets back in, because I could see it was only a matter of time before the return of... The Doom Fleets of Dreaded HOP Doom!


A day later, I found the answer looking through my log:

https://imgur.com/a/lWSP346



My own bl**dy Shipyards and Wharves had been supplying the little buggers! Sure, I made a mint in a few hours, but wow!

So basically, if it's still not clicking (it took me a while), what seems to have happened is that as I was busy getting my Rep back up by shooting down criminal transports, I hit the threshold whereby HOP once again considered me chummy enough, and the little tykes ran straight to the factories of their mortal enemy - me - to get their fleets rebuilt!

Compounding the mystery (slightly) was that I hadn't noticed that I was, evidently, the only race left in the game that would deal with HOP, such is their penchant for attacking everyone on sight bar the player (unless provoked).

I have now barred them from buying from me, so they are royally screwed once again, and am busy just capturing all the vessels they paid me for! So there was a silver lining :) But the striking thing about that, I've found, is that I can make everyone eject, take their ships, and it has zero effect on my Rep!!!! There was one exception, where the pilot launched a distress drone and my Rep did take a hit, but it's only happened exactly once after taking about 30 of their ships. That certainly doesn't seem right gameplay wise, but until it's fixed, I'll take it!

And I lived happily ever after!

And that was my follow-up story. Sleep tight!

Post Reply

Return to “X4: Foundations - Spoilers”