[4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

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slober
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[4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by slober » Wed, 7. Apr 21, 22:07

Situation when we have TER Tokyo vs XEN K

TER Tokyo has only 1 Shield MK2. XEN K I guess fully equipped.
When Player in the sector Tokyo is dying very quick. When player out of sector Tokyo starts to repair hull and recharge shield.

May you please check the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEnMbys48D4

Link on save file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11y-EyS ... sp=sharing

Thanks.

Imperial Good
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by Imperial Good » Thu, 8. Apr 21, 07:57

Part of the issue may be the wiggle dance the ships are doing as I have noticed large reductions in damage of involved ships when it occurs. As the ship is rotating very fast and randomly it might limit the number of turrets that can be factored in to damaging the target.

In low attention combat weapon systems have a limited angle of operation, such as guns only dealing damage in a 90 degree arc in front of the ship. Although none of these ships have guns, turrets have similar limitations depending how they are placed. If the K ends up pointing in a sub-optimal direction then some of its turrets might not get factored in.

FatalKeks
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by FatalKeks » Wed, 14. Apr 21, 12:12

Imperial Good wrote:
Thu, 8. Apr 21, 07:57
Part of the issue may be the wiggle dance the ships are doing as I have noticed large reductions in damage of involved ships when it occurs. As the ship is rotating very fast and randomly it might limit the number of turrets that can be factored in to damaging the target.

In low attention combat weapon systems have a limited angle of operation, such as guns only dealing damage in a 90 degree arc in front of the ship. Although none of these ships have guns, turrets have similar limitations depending how they are placed. If the K ends up pointing in a sub-optimal direction then some of its turrets might not get factored in.
Is this OOS wiggling dance WAI? This happens on a regular basis in OOS, is this a new issue? Or is there a bug report about it somewhere?
Looks silly when 8 L-ships "do the disco" around each other. Is the main cannons damage calculated despite the ships appearing to rotate aimlessly?

Imperial Good
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by Imperial Good » Wed, 14. Apr 21, 23:47

FatalKeks wrote:
Wed, 14. Apr 21, 12:12
Is this OOS wiggling dance WAI?
I highly doubt it is.
FatalKeks wrote:
Wed, 14. Apr 21, 12:12
This happens on a regular basis in OOS, is this a new issue?
It has existed for a long time in some form or another.
FatalKeks wrote:
Wed, 14. Apr 21, 12:12
Or is there a bug report about it somewhere?
It was reported many times, with some causes of it being fixed in the past.
FatalKeks wrote:
Wed, 14. Apr 21, 12:12
Is the main cannons damage calculated despite the ships appearing to rotate aimlessly?
Only if the target is within the 90 degree firing cone of the main batteries. Often it might not be in which case the ship takes a large DPS hit.

My theory regarding the cause is ships trying to predictively move relative to their target get into an oscillation due to a feedback loop. The K tries to circle for broadsides so aims to move to a point perpendicular to the target, however in response to this the ships target ahead of the K, which then causes the K to change direction again based on the new course of its target causing an unstable loop between the two. Since there is no limit to ship rotation speed in low attention this constant change of target direction gets into oscillation which is the "wiggle dance" people can observe.

slober
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by slober » Thu, 15. Apr 21, 10:48

Imperial Good wrote:
Thu, 8. Apr 21, 07:57
Part of the issue may be the wiggle dance the ships are doing as I have noticed large reductions in damage of involved ships when it occurs. As the ship is rotating very fast and randomly it might limit the number of turrets that can be factored in to damaging the target.

In low attention combat weapon systems have a limited angle of operation, such as guns only dealing damage in a 90 degree arc in front of the ship. Although none of these ships have guns, turrets have similar limitations depending how they are placed. If the K ends up pointing in a sub-optimal direction then some of its turrets might not get factored in.
I noticed one more thing with Tokyo.
This ship in not symmetric and enemy ships/turrets have some issues with aiming. Maybe because of this issue Tokyo looks so unkillable some times

Please check the video
https://youtu.be/a26ZarUv6a0

slober
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by slober » Thu, 15. Apr 21, 11:10

1 more video from different position with the same issue of aiming

+ Bug with XEN L turrets. They don`t want to shoot. I restart the game/tried to do file verification/reload the save. Sometimes they shoot and stop/ some times even don`t start to shoot.

Link for video:
https://youtu.be/6doDDfCaH38

Link for save game file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jvZaYD ... sp=sharing

CaptGensman
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by CaptGensman » Thu, 15. Apr 21, 12:30

I think it is a problem with the "f3 camera". I run often in the same issue. The First ship that is selected for the camera do not shoot. Not always but sometimes.

Try the Same Situation and select another ship for the external camera.

slober
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by slober » Thu, 15. Apr 21, 13:18

CaptGensman wrote:
Thu, 15. Apr 21, 12:30
I think it is a problem with the "f3 camera". I run often in the same issue. The First ship that is selected for the camera do not shoot. Not always but sometimes.

Try the Same Situation and select another ship for the external camera.
I`m not sure if the camera is able to affect any turrets in the game. I`ve checked and it was the same behaviour. Only what helped to kill that Tokyo - teleportation out of the sector.

My opinion. L Turrets instead of `Attack all enemies` have the `Defend` mode and some time they respond to damage of station, some times not. Switch to `Attack all enemies` and lock this option for all XEN turrets could help maybe.


At the same time we have very stupid AI behaviour of Tokyo.
What is a reason to Attack def station with M Turrets (suicide)? It would be smart if faction carriers could request from Wharf new S/M ships to replace ships what were killed (or fill up till full capacity).
But... we have what we have...

Mysterial
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Re: [4.0 HF3] TER Tokyo / balance or possible bug

Post by Mysterial » Thu, 15. Apr 21, 17:08

Imperial Good wrote:
Wed, 14. Apr 21, 23:47
My theory regarding the cause is ships trying to predictively move relative to their target get into an oscillation due to a feedback loop. The K tries to circle for broadsides so aims to move to a point perpendicular to the target, however in response to this the ships target ahead of the K, which then causes the K to change direction again based on the new course of its target causing an unstable loop between the two. Since there is no limit to ship rotation speed in low attention this constant change of target direction gets into oscillation which is the "wiggle dance" people can observe.
This is correct.

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