Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

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atsmith66
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Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by atsmith66 » Fri, 28. Jan 22, 18:42

I have noticed in 4.20 and 5.0 that the Xenon seem to have become a little stronger.

They are now invading ZYA space and sometimes Antigone space and seem capable of being a real threat.

I am making this post to BEG, PLEAD, and PROSTRATE myself with the following request: Please do not make the Xenon weaker again!!!!!

If anything a setting giving them an even bigger advantage would be VERY welcome. Perhaps a checkbox that gives the Xenon 5 X resources when the map is generated?

I recently played a game started in 4.20 where at the 24 hour mark the ZYA needed to be rescued or face extinction and the Antigone needed serious help too. Having this happen resulted in the best X4 gameplay I have had to date. I had to turn my entire economy to fighting a stream of I's and K's. It probably took me as long again to break the Xenon in Tharka's Cascade and it's adjoining systems and I lost a lot of ships keeping the Zyarth alive. The ZYA had lost three or four sectors before I was able to halt the onslaught. At the same time they were devastating the Void and hitting other sectors hard too. By the time I had won that war against an actual aggressor I sat back and reflected that it was by far the most epic game X4 had ever given me and by a HUGE margin. It kept me on the back foot for ages and it was amazing.

A started another game and while the Xenon coming from Tharka's Cascade are doing damage, they're seriously quiet everywhere else. In comparison the Universe is asleep. I truly regret not having a save-game at the start of the game referenced above.

That was the first time that the Xenon (or indeed anyone) were any form of a threat in years of playing X4 and it was a totally different and infinitely better experience that really gave me a feeling of having a reason to be there and also kept me on my toes at all times. At times I was even forced to abandon my own assets (two or more of my own stations destroyed as sectors fell) so that I could regroup and live to fight another day. I seriously wish I could start a game knowing that this sort of destructive Xenon explosion onto the galaxy is a guarantee. It was such amazing fun.

JeDe
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by JeDe » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 13:51

Under Beta 5.00, the Xenon are again just statiscs with no impact on the X-Universe. This decision by EGOSOFT is understandable, since the X-Universe should also function without player intervention and should not die out. It would make sense to make the behavior or the strength of the xenon changeable. For example about a plot: Segaris Pioneers trigger a terraforming disaster and the Xenon come back.
So far only MODs like "Xenon Hell" from Semira have helped to turn the Xenon into serious opponents.

af_2017
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by af_2017 » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 14:28

atsmith66 wrote:
Fri, 28. Jan 22, 18:42
I have noticed in 4.20 and 5.0 that the Xenon seem to have become a little stronger.
Actually xenon power is a result of multiple aspects.
First of all it is OOS balance.
Can't say about 5.0 but in 4.2 terrans who have been "nerfed": they have less stations and send less anti-xenon raiding ships (in 4.0 they were more efficient on that).
So sadly any changes in the area are not planned and most likely result of "let's change this and will see how it will go" or even bugs, like [1507]4.20 Beta4 - Tokyo not launching fighters.
X4 is not a destination. It's a journey. Unfortunately in a wrong direction.

Imperator Claudius
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by Imperator Claudius » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 15:27

I fully support your post. In 4.20 the XENON are no serious threat at all, additionally they are raided by the Terrans making them even weaker. Currently I am considering to declare war on the Terrans, to stop them from terminating the XENON, especially taking out XENON stations with the Asgard. EGOSOFT, please strengthen the XENON. Currently I can keep them at bay very easily, just by building two defence stations close to the respective jump gate, each one defended by a squadron of no more than six destroyers.
In 5.0 I don't know yet, still have to do some more testing.

magitsu
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by magitsu » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 16:36

TER/PIO have it too easy because they need to only go to one direction.

cheef.che
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by cheef.che » Tue, 1. Feb 22, 16:56

Agree with post, In my current game (5.0b2) Xenons are good only agains Zya and I could explain it cause:

1) Zya have only 3 sectors for mining, but 2 of them are frontlines and 1 have very small amout of available resources;
2) Zya have poor economy from beginning: lack of trade fleet, lack of "Turret components" , "Shield components" and "Advanced Electronics" to build static defence;
3) Zya have small amout of destoyers to protect from Xenons and Argon and they cannot build new ones without resouces which they don't have and won't build.

And it's great for the player, cause provided a lot of opportunities and makes game very interesting. However the rest of the space don't care a lot of Xenon threat.

COT won't control Faulty Logic and beat every attempt to intervent to Holy Vision. (I decided not to trade with them and not build aanything, otherwise they beat Antigone, Paranid and Xenons very easy, like it was in my previous games)
Teladi won't control Matrix #451 and didn't loose any sector.
Antigone controls The Void and beat (with Terran help) any invasion.
Terran pushing Xenons everywhere.
Paranid has confcits with COT and loosed Wretched Skies which is ok

Probably it make sense to tweak those exact locations and improve Xenons economy from beginning to allow them to send fleets of Xenon I + 3 Xenon K very early and repeat this often.

atsmith66
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by atsmith66 » Wed, 2. Feb 22, 22:48

An idea to fix this might be to have a game start option that allows the Xenon to be intentionally unbalanced.
  • This way the totally status quo universe after 100 hours of internal testing status is still there for when I'm in the mood for Space Farm Simulator, but
  • for those of use that want a challenge the universe balance could be one where without player intervention the Xenon will DEFINITELY overrun the universe.
This would give my fleets purpose. I would be forced to keep them deployed strategically to slow a Xenon advance in one area, decide which sectors to abandon for later reclamation, and have my main fleet invading Xenon Space to try and deny them ship production and damage their resource flow.

It would be SOOOO EPIC!!!

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alessandrofavero
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by alessandrofavero » Thu, 3. Feb 22, 00:05

atsmith66 wrote:
Wed, 2. Feb 22, 22:48
An idea to fix this might be to have a game start option that allows the Xenon to be intentionally unbalanced.
  • This way the totally status quo universe after 100 hours of internal testing status is still there for when I'm in the mood for Space Farm Simulator, but
  • for those of use that want a challenge the universe balance could be one where without player intervention the Xenon will DEFINITELY overrun the universe.
This would give my fleets purpose. I would be forced to keep them deployed strategically to slow a Xenon advance in one area, decide which sectors to abandon for later reclamation, and have my main fleet invading Xenon Space to try and deny them ship production and damage their resource flow.

It would be SOOOO EPIC!!!
+1
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ybo1233
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by ybo1233 » Tue, 8. Feb 22, 09:44

cheef.che wrote:
Tue, 1. Feb 22, 16:56
Agree with post, In my current game (5.0b2) Xenons are good only agains Zya and I could explain it cause:

1) Zya have only 3 sectors for mining, but 2 of them are frontlines and 1 have very small amout of available resources;
2) Zya have poor economy from beginning: lack of trade fleet, lack of "Turret components" , "Shield components" and "Advanced Electronics" to build static defence;
3) Zya have small amout of destoyers to protect from Xenons and Argon and they cannot build new ones without resouces which they don't have and won't build.

And it's great for the player, cause provided a lot of opportunities and makes game very interesting. However the rest of the space don't care a lot of Xenon threat.

COT won't control Faulty Logic and beat every attempt to intervent to Holy Vision. (I decided not to trade with them and not build aanything, otherwise they beat Antigone, Paranid and Xenons very easy, like it was in my previous games)
Teladi won't control Matrix #451 and didn't loose any sector.
Antigone controls The Void and beat (with Terran help) any invasion.
Terran pushing Xenons everywhere.
Paranid has confcits with COT and loosed Wretched Skies which is ok

Probably it make sense to tweak those exact locations and improve Xenons economy from beginning to allow them to send fleets of Xenon I + 3 Xenon K very early and repeat this often.
I think xenon is a little more powerfull that before 5.0 betas. Usually, Argon push them from frontier edge and Paranid from Faulty Logic. It is not the case in my game.

The only one that beat them so far are terran and Teladi.

Telady are really stronger now, has they have a big economy and almost no one that attack them but pirates and Xenon. But they have not teaken back Matrix #451.

The real problem is that ZYA is really unbalanced has the Free Family are much stronger that them...

In my game, ZYA have lost Wretched Sky 4 and Famiuly Zhin. And i have took them by constructing quicly a small defense station before them.

Argon have 2 fleet in Zyart's Dominion and ZYA has none... in any sector !

adeine
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by adeine » Tue, 8. Feb 22, 17:51

atsmith66 wrote:
Wed, 2. Feb 22, 22:48
An idea to fix this might be to have a game start option that allows the Xenon to be intentionally unbalanced.
  • This way the totally status quo universe after 100 hours of internal testing status is still there for when I'm in the mood for Space Farm Simulator, but
  • for those of use that want a challenge the universe balance could be one where without player intervention the Xenon will DEFINITELY overrun the universe.
This would give my fleets purpose. I would be forced to keep them deployed strategically to slow a Xenon advance in one area, decide which sectors to abandon for later reclamation, and have my main fleet invading Xenon Space to try and deny them ship production and damage their resource flow.

It would be SOOOO EPIC!!!
I wonder if something like that could be achieved by removing the quotas/maximum number of [x] for the Xenon faction. IIRC that is how some of the mods do a lot of it, by uncapping the potential for Xenon to grow (or significantly raising it). I get why that's not the case for default starts, since it has the potential to overwhelm the game in the long term (both in terms of Xenon presence, and performance) but could be neat for those who want it in a budgeted/custom gamestart.

It wouldn't require any extra balancing, since it's the same numbers for everything else, just with the cap on Xenon growth removed.

Viper185
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by Viper185 » Tue, 8. Feb 22, 21:44

wouldn't a difficulty slider be more reliable?

adeine
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by adeine » Tue, 8. Feb 22, 22:08

Viper185 wrote:
Tue, 8. Feb 22, 21:44
wouldn't a difficulty slider be more reliable?
It would be a nightmare to try and implement and balance.

Imperial Good
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by Imperial Good » Tue, 8. Feb 22, 22:30

5.00 there seems to be some sort of Xenon economic bug. One cluster has become super charged and is spamming ships like mad, while all others have degenerated to peaceful open spaces with a lot of Xenon stations not being constructed or building any ships.

wilsonlaizo
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by wilsonlaizo » Wed, 9. Feb 22, 20:16

Imperial Good wrote:
Tue, 8. Feb 22, 22:30
5.00 there seems to be some sort of Xenon economic bug. One cluster has become super charged and is spamming ships like mad, while all others have degenerated to peaceful open spaces with a lot of Xenon stations not being constructed or building any ships.
Yeah, now that you said this, it's kind of true. The Xenon on Split space are quite strong and active. In the 2 saves I started on 5.0 they behave exactly like that, they were quite strong on the Split side, even reaching Argon Prime and destroying ARG Wharf and HAT Trade Station, while the Xenon around TEL and HOP are not doing much. In both saves the ZYA was completely wiped out except for one zone (not counting FRF zones after split questline) while TEL and HOP only had small skirmishes, mostly one or two Ks going around rampant, but not much on base building and been a threat.

Well, in one of the saves they did take The Void and were very annoying in Second Contact ... maybe it's just that HOP and TEL were been more efficient OOS against them?

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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by flywlyx » Thu, 10. Feb 22, 06:47

adeine wrote:
Tue, 8. Feb 22, 22:08
It would be a nightmare to try and implement and balance.
Ego only needs to balance default, we are asking for unbalance.
Something like Xenon ships cost XX% less resources and time, 200% galaxy job, stations.

Tommzen
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by Tommzen » Fri, 11. Feb 22, 02:36

cheef.che wrote:
Tue, 1. Feb 22, 16:56
.......

1) Zya have only 3 sectors for mining, but 2 of them are frontlines and 1 have very small amout of available resources;
2) Zya have poor economy from beginning: lack of trade fleet, lack of "Turret components" , "Shield components" and "Advanced Electronics" to build static defence;
3) Zya have small amout of destoyers to protect from Xenons and Argon and they cannot build new ones without resouces which they don't have and won't build.
......
You've forgotten the 4) point.
4)Zya stations do have nearly always laser as turrets. And L laserturets dont make so much damage as HOP plasmaturrets.

I meen one x9 can easily destroy 5 or more ZYA stations. ^^ :sceptic:
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by SpaceCadet11864 » Sat, 12. Feb 22, 05:05

In my new game of 5.00 beta 3, after 1d into the game (game time) - xenon are all but defeated in most areas except faulty logic where they have a bunch of destroyers accompanied with fighters. Compared to 4.20 the Xenon seem much less effective. I remember Teladi used to have to struggle against Xenon near Ianumus Zura but not this time, they've even taken over company regard without any issues. The Teladi are also just spamming tons of new factories because they're left unchallenged I guess?

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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by Scoob » Sat, 12. Feb 22, 14:14

Xenon continue to be pretty aggressive in my game, started in 5.0 Beta 1. I'm approaching 30 hours in and they're currently tearing up Second Contact II Flashpoint with an I and several (3 so far) K's. Local forces appear totally unresponsive to this, or they're all dead. There has been so much carnage to shipping. If HOP make a push now, there's nothing ARG can do.

Their attack on Argon Prime, only a few hours into the game, hurt the Argon and they've still not rebuilt their Equipment Dock - or even started to - 20+ hours later. ARG are still holding back Xenon incursions via Hatikvah's Choice though, mostly thanks to a well-placed station rather than a large fleet.

None of this has directly affected me, I set up home in Silent Witness XI, but it is worrying how aggressive the Xenon are being this time. They appear not to just attack border sectors to them, but rather fly in several sector deep before causing havoc. While the odd surgical strike it cool - assuming they are attacking with a reason, such as to destroy shipping or just a specific station - a slower take and secure approach should be better, but with minimal ARG resistance to these deeper strikes, well, it's working well for the Xenon.

I've still not revealed ZYA or FRF sectors, so not a clue how they're doing vs. the Xenon.

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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by adeine » Sat, 12. Feb 22, 22:25

SpaceCadet11864 wrote:
Sat, 12. Feb 22, 05:05
In my new game of 5.00 beta 3, after 1d into the game (game time) - xenon are all but defeated in most areas except faulty logic where they have a bunch of destroyers accompanied with fighters. Compared to 4.20 the Xenon seem much less effective. I remember Teladi used to have to struggle against Xenon near Ianumus Zura but not this time, they've even taken over company regard without any issues. The Teladi are also just spamming tons of new factories because they're left unchallenged I guess?
In my games Teladi have not struggled in Ianamus Zura since the great Xenon nerf post 3.0.

In 4.x I haven't really seen any faction lose ground to the Xenon.

wilsonlaizo
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Re: Stronger Xenon? Game balance feedback.

Post by wilsonlaizo » Sat, 12. Feb 22, 23:39

I think Xen beating Zya is pretty much a certainty at this point,
Spoiler
Show
of course if you do the Split plotline that may change.
Other than that, I have mixed results so far for the other factions:
HOP - Holy Vision was starting to get crowded with Xenon stations on my last save, previous they were OK. Without any questline they started the game invading the PAR/ANT but soon calmed down
TEL - First 2 saves on Beta were OK, last save (Beta 4) they lost Profit Center Alfa and Two Grand (ARG got them back later as Xenon never constructed any station)
PAR - Didn't have any issue, started with some skirmishes against HOP but got quiet after a while. Only the maps near ZYA that are lost pretty soon as well.
ARG - Alongside with HAT they struggle to keep Hatkvas choice, and in the first save they started to get some incursions in Argon Prime, sectors near ZYA were fine
ANT - One save they lost The Void while Second Contact 2 was been constantly harassed by Xen
ZYA - Lost everything but Zyarths 4
FRF - Never had any issue and wiped Xen on Tharka 4 in one of the saves

So, I guess other than ZYA and the conflict between the factions I have seeing a pretty varied outcome between saves.

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