Running X2 in background

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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Tenoshii
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Running X2 in background

Post by Tenoshii » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 17:45

Is there a way to keep X2 running w/o having to have the window active?

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vabtek
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Re: Running X2 in background

Post by vabtek » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 18:09

Tenoshii wrote:Is there a way to keep X2 running w/o having to have the window active?
there is no way since the OS running it is not multi threading... When you send a task in background it stops and wait to be relaunch... For X2 to run in background it would have to run as a service and it's not.

ScribbleJ
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Post by ScribbleJ » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 18:23

There may be no way to run X2 in the background, I haven't tried it. But blaming this on the operating system is just silly.

Windows definately has the capability to run multiple tasks simultaneously. I have many other games which run just fine in the background.

Comet
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Post by Comet » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 18:49

most games that run in the background are multiplayer...basically they keep receiving information from the net...doesnt mean they are actually doing anything...theyre just receiving the info and keeping the connection alive...in multiplayer this is easier because the sort of multitasking is server related so to speak....but if a game really requires to be computing other info like trading and all ..it is a lot different....also the X2 benchmark could run in the background ..so i dont know

by the way...there are also plenty of games that in multiplayer they "run in the background" but in single player they dont....its just like a pause feature...

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Aro
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Post by Aro » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 19:28

What would happen if you use X2 in window mode?

RunningWild
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Post by RunningWild » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 19:34

The same. X2 doesn't run in background. It detects when it becomes inactive and pauses.

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Pinger
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Post by Pinger » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 19:41

hmm suggestion for those long nights when you want to leave it running.

Requires 2 PC's though, have a PC just to run the game during the night then copy the saves over in the morning. That's what I'm thinking of for my old box as it isn't as noisey or use as much electricity.

nephilim666
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um... no

Post by nephilim666 » Tue, 2. Dec 03, 23:33

you know it's scary when people present incorrect information with such authority.

XP is indeed multitasking. When you alt tab away from a game most continue to run. Additionally MMORPG clients' ability to multitask has nothing to do with the server.. at all.. by any stretch of the imagination.

The OS you may be thinking of is windows 3.1, as that's the last OS I can remember using that behaves in the manner the 'experts' above are suggesting.

presenting a guess or a muttering as fact is irresponsible.

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vabtek
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Post by vabtek » Wed, 3. Dec 03, 09:05

scribble wrote:There may be no way to run X2 in the background, I haven't tried it. But blaming this on the operating system is just silly.

Windows definately has the capability to run multiple tasks simultaneously. I have many other games which run just fine in the background.

You said it, you have not tried it... I had.. :roll: And I never *Blamed* the operating system I happend to understand how it's working... I didn't said that it wasn't multi-tasks... I said it was not multi-threads... And there is a fondamental diffenrence between the 2...

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vabtek
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Re: um... no

Post by vabtek » Wed, 3. Dec 03, 10:13

nephilim666 wrote:you know it's scary when people present incorrect information with such authority.

XP is indeed multitasking. When you alt tab away from a game most continue to run. Additionally MMORPG clients' ability to multitask has nothing to do with the server.. at all.. by any stretch of the imagination.

The OS you may be thinking of is windows 3.1, as that's the last OS I can remember using that behaves in the manner the 'experts' above are suggesting.

presenting a guess or a muttering as fact is irresponsible.

lol, I'm running the game on a server 2003 and had to change some configuration in the application pool of IIS 6 and memory managment configuration of SQL so that everything could work smoothly whyle i'm in the game and it is running like a charm. So I can confirm that X2 is stable anough to run on a last version server without interfering with normal operation (nothing showed up in event viewer cause by X2) and switching with ALT-TAB as if it was Iexplorer windows... Of the 1G of ram, 182 M used by X2, about 50 for SQL and 3 IIS process that max out to 45M each and drops to 6.5M when recycled... So I understand what is going on deep in the OS... Multitasking just means that any application can be open and running and have the token to use the processor time by small bloc of time then passing it to the other process who is using is little bit of time and pass the token to the next and so on... But only one at a time is using the CPU making it NOT Multi-threading... You think that more than one process is working at the same time bu they dont... I've seen many peoples confusing the concepts of multi-tasking vs multi-threading not clearly understanding what's happening... And for X2 to run as if it was in front, not in background. It would need a plattform ( the OS) capable of multi-threading ... (pay attention to the word used, it's not the same) In microsoft OS's, to get an application to continue running in parralel to others and stay active must be running as a service. If not, the application is just push aside to sleep until active again... Open your task manager and watch the X2 process whyle you send it in background... CPU time... a big nice 0 and it wont access it until you switch it back in the front... check the bar graph when you ALT-TAB and you will se the line on top whyle you were in game and drop completly when on the desktop... :!: X2 could have been code to switch off 3d rendering and still running basic core logic of the game as a service like economy for example for what is ask in this thread to work... But it's not... and most of the applications dont, games and others have the same behavior except those running as a service that are design to run in this way like SQL for exemple... And if it was, no one of us would be playing it right now and X2 would still be in devlopment cause it's more things to consider and take care of in programming, another layer to add to manage interaction with other services, priority, memory managment and so on...

If all this is just about a fast way to make credits... just access the memory address holding the value... It takes less than a minute to do so. I've done it to satisfy my curiosity about the ships and bought them all to get a test ride cause they are no stats info available when you're in a shipyard and buying them blind :( .... And at theire price range... It's a bit frustrating when you saved big credits for a ship and it turn out to be not as you expected... But doing it is very bad for the gameplay and spoils it... So after that, I reverted to were I was on the credit side and now I know for what I'm saving the credits for... A nice Argon TL... Fast, Big cargo space, holds 15 ships up to dolphins L and nova L... For exemple, I've put 5 Nova's, 2 Dolphins, 1 solar plant, 1 sillicon and one ore plant. Had 2k energy for the jumpdrive, couple of adv satellites, many weapon types in it and still had about half of free space of cargo... So the Argon TL will certainly be my first best utility ship way before carriers and destroyers...

FLY135
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Post by FLY135 » Wed, 3. Dec 03, 19:56

But only one at a time is using the CPU making it NOT Multi-threading... You think that more than one process is working at the same time bu they dont... I've seen many peoples confusing the concepts of multi-tasking vs multi-threading not clearly...
Translation.... "I don't know WTF I'm talking about and now I'm trying to save face".

Sorry but you are confusing "multithreading" with "multiprocessers". And you can have multiple processors with Win2K and XP Pro. But that is entirely irrelevant to the initial question. It does not take multiple processors to have multiple processes operating at the same time. Granted, they are not all processing at the exact same instance in time. But that is transparent to the user.

XP is capable of multitasking, multithreading, and multiprocessing. So in effect your statement that the OS is a limiting factor is entirely wrong. Also a process does not have to be a service to be operational when it isn't in the foreground. The foreground is simply a user interface issue.

Parias
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Post by Parias » Wed, 3. Dec 03, 20:58

Okay, before this debate gets any more complicated and long-winded, I'm going to derail it slightly with a question. When running the game in windowed mode (which I do on occasion so I can keep an eye on these forums and other elements a little easier while playing), I find that I'm completely unable to reposition the game window to a different location. Clicking on the titlebar for the window and dragging, which should normally allow me to reposition it anywhere I please (it's a little awkward having it focused in the upper area of my screen) just brings the game itself back to focus. Any kind of solution to this? Much as I try, I just can't find any other way to reposition the window.

Nothing so serious that I can't live with it, I just though I'd bring I'd it up. Seems like a bit of an odd problem, since most other windowed-mode-supporting games allow for this.

Beef
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Post by Beef » Wed, 3. Dec 03, 21:17

X2 blocks your mouse and keyboard, I have the same problem.
That can be very irritating, when the game crashes, I cant click or ctrl+e to close the X2 task, making reboot the only option.

I just tried running the game in windowed mode, it doesn't run at all, doesn't even redraw when the window isn't active.
The whole issue of 'does it run in the background' is purely programming specific. X2 checks if it's focussed to run.
Multiplayer games traditionally keep running because the packages the server sends have to be processed. But the programmer can simply put a little conditional and make the program block when it's unactive, losing your connection.

good idea for next patch: keep running X2 even when the window is unactive!

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vabtek
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Post by vabtek » Wed, 3. Dec 03, 23:42

[quote="FLY135
Translation.... "I don't know WTF I'm talking about and now I'm trying to save face".

Sorry but you are confusing "multithreading" with "multiprocessers". And you can have multiple processors with Win2K and XP Pro. But that is entirely irrelevant to the initial question. It does not take multiple processors to have multiple processes operating at the same time. Granted, they are not all processing at the exact same instance in time. But that is transparent to the user.

XP is capable of multitasking, multithreading, and multiprocessing. So in effect your statement that the OS is a limiting factor is entirely wrong. Also a process does not have to be a service to be operational when it isn't in the foreground. The foreground is simply a user interface issue.[/quote]

Of course not that it doesn't take multi processors to run multiple process in memory... Where did you get that's what i'm saying?... you may have 20 process in background it does not mean that they are "working" as if they where in forground... Try it, start X2 in 640*480 window mode and switch it to background and it completly stops... CPU drops to zero. Of course it still in memory but it's doing nothing. You may wait 2 days like this and it wont change anything. I may not explaining it very well but rest assure i'm not confusing hardware with software issues... :wink:

ScribbleJ
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Post by ScribbleJ » Thu, 4. Dec 03, 01:33

I never believed what people say about Canadians, but vabtek is a rather convincing argument.

I can't beleive this has turned intoa debate, when I summed it up perfectly in my first post:

Blaming this on the operating system is just silly.

Stooge
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Post by Stooge » Thu, 4. Dec 03, 04:48

Wow.

Amazing ...

Rather then debate multi-threading, I just went to the source .. from microsoft's website:

Multithreading. Right now the most sophisticated games require computers to complete many different processes at once. This is known as multithreading and as games evolve multithreading will become more and more important. Windows XP handles multithreading more intelligently than previous operating systems. For now, any game that requires execution of multiple tasks within its own process will benefit from smoother graphics and some overall speed gains
You can vew the full deal here

Now in regards to "When you send a task in background it stops and wait to be relaunched" that's just bogus. I know several games that will run just fine in the background. Things change, time passes, resources are collected, all in the background (In fact Rise of Nations by Microsoft does just this). To say otherwise just shows a total and fundamental lack of understanding of the OS.

The fact is that X2 was either not written so that it can run in the background, or they purposely disabled the game while in background mode. It would take a developer to tell us which way. However, you are incorrect in many of your assumptions regarding background tasks. In fact, just to prove it to myself beyond a shadow of doubt I have Rise of Nations running in the background right now. Task manager states that it's using approx. 80% of my cpu. And ... let's alt-tab back into game ... I now have 250 more units of wood and since it's only being collected at 45 units per minute, I'd say it's running just fine in the background.

You are correct that services will run in the background, but that kind of goes w/o saying. What good is a service that doesn't run in the background? My entire production farm at work would be useless if the applications did not run in the background as services.

The point is Windows can handle multi-threading, multi-processing, and multi-tasking. The software has to be written to take that into account, and X2 was not. It's a "problem" with X2 and NOT the OS.

I put problem in quotes because I don't consider it to be an issue at all, it's how they coded it, deal with it :roll:

OH, and I just checked Rise of Nations again and I now have 450 more units of wood. Meanwhile, the computer has advanced to the next age, and has almost completely destroyed my town. All of this while it ran in the background as I typed this message to you. Feel bad for my village, but oh well, it was just a test anyway :lol:

Parias
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Post by Parias » Thu, 4. Dec 03, 09:51

I hate to continue this crazy debate, but I should mention that, from my experience, the game does still run while it's in the background. It may not eat up any major system resources, but it's still processing something, because every time I alt-tab out for several minutes and go back in, I notice time jumping ahead suddenly and any processes I'm monitoring advance as if that given amount of time had passed. Curious.

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vabtek
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Post by vabtek » Thu, 4. Dec 03, 12:36

Stooge wrote:Wow.

Amazing ...

Rather then debate multi-threading, I just went to the source .. from microsoft's website:

Multithreading. Right now the most sophisticated games require computers to complete many different processes at once. This is known as multithreading and as games evolve multithreading will become more and more important. Windows XP handles multithreading more intelligently than previous operating systems. For now, any game that requires execution of multiple tasks within its own process will benefit from smoother graphics and some overall speed gains
You can vew the full deal here

Now in regards to "When you send a task in background it stops and wait to be relaunched" that's just bogus. I know several games that will run just fine in the background. Things change, time passes, resources are collected, all in the background (In fact Rise of Nations by Microsoft does just this). To say otherwise just shows a total and fundamental lack of understanding of the OS.

The fact is that X2 was either not written so that it can run in the background, or they purposely disabled the game while in background mode. It would take a developer to tell us which way. However, you are incorrect in many of your assumptions regarding background tasks. In fact, just to prove it to myself beyond a shadow of doubt I have Rise of Nations running in the background right now. Task manager states that it's using approx. 80% of my cpu. And ... let's alt-tab back into game ... I now have 250 more units of wood and since it's only being collected at 45 units per minute, I'd say it's running just fine in the background.

You are correct that services will run in the background, but that kind of goes w/o saying. What good is a service that doesn't run in the background? My entire production farm at work would be useless if the applications did not run in the background as services.

The point is Windows can handle multi-threading, multi-processing, and multi-tasking. The software has to be written to take that into account, and X2 was not. It's a "problem" with X2 and NOT the OS.

I put problem in quotes because I don't consider it to be an issue at all, it's how they coded it, deal with it :roll:

OH, and I just checked Rise of Nations again and I now have 450 more units of wood. Meanwhile, the computer has advanced to the next age, and has almost completely destroyed my town. All of this while it ran in the background as I typed this message to you. Feel bad for my village, but oh well, it was just a test anyway :lol:

Ok I was totaly wrong on that from what your saying and your reply was far better and respectable than low personnal attack and global jugment of someone you dont know from other replies... Except your "Total lack of understanding" that is quite big and generalising dont you think? As if you miss a detail you misse all without any nuances.... quite od binary thinking in my opinion... Thanks anyway cause I wrongly beleived that as sort of a "convention" applications that needed to multithread were made running as a service as opposed to those that would not need to do so...

FLY135
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Post by FLY135 » Fri, 5. Dec 03, 15:41

Ok I was totaly wrong on that from what your saying and your reply was far better and respectable than low personnal attack and global jugment of someone you dont know from other replies...
I apologize about the personal attack. It was uncalled for. And Stooge is exactly right about the issue of X2 becoming idle is the background. It was a choice the developers made for unstated reasons.

The reason why I'm "someone you don't know" is because I preordered X2 and just joined the forum. In fact EB just called me last night and said my X2 is ready for pickup. I tried X-BTF and found it to be too slow and boring. X-Tension, which supposibly was a big improvement was never available in the states. So as a big space sim fan I decided sight-unseen to plunk down my 40USD and take a chance on X2.

Anyway, please accept my apology as I hope to enjoy both the game and chatting about it here on the forum. I got off to a pretty bad start for a first post.

JrStonewall
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Re: um... no

Post by JrStonewall » Fri, 5. Dec 03, 18:34

vabtek wrote:
...and now I know for what I'm saving the credits for... A nice Argon TL... Fast, Big cargo space, holds 15 ships up to dolphins L and nova L... For exemple, I've put 5 Nova's, 2 Dolphins, 1 solar plant, 1 sillicon and one ore plant. Had 2k energy for the jumpdrive, couple of adv satellites, many weapon types in it and still had about half of free space of cargo... So the Argon TL will certainly be my first best utility ship way before carriers and destroyers...
SWEET!!! I hope you are correct. Thats the kindof spoiler I've been hoping to find while waiting for my preorder of X2 to arrive. About a month ago there were stats on the Argon Mammoth that said it would only carry 4-5 ships total and I was outrage and crying in my beers. Now at least I know the ship is a useful stepping stone before purchase of a full carrier instead of just a worthless utility ship. If the Argon TL ship capacity really is 15 I want to thank the Devs profusely!!! I cant believe they actually fixed that and so soon before release.

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