Adventures in wing command

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SirNukes
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Post by SirNukes » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 06:38

jlehtone wrote:Has anyone else bothered to tally the enemy strength on Convoy Escort?
Dual convoy missions pick enemy ships in the "U.183 Raiding Parties" script. That caps out at M6, and selection is based purely on player rank. Mission difficulty is used to give enemies more engine tunings and spawn more enemies per wave.

ConorC
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Post by ConorC » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 11:28

The wing system in X3TC always annoyed me. I always found it very fiddly and the issues of ships crashing into their mothership, and themselves always drove me nuts.

But I love carriers spewing out large amounts of fighters to go pop some fools. So in my current game while I don't yet have a dedicated large carrier, I have an Elephant and two TMs, all running the CODEA script by Lucike. I LOVE this script. it's in depth, it's not just a fire and forget script, although it's very good at that, you do have to manage it but it works really well and my enthusiastic flyboys have never faceplanted themselves into the side of their own ship, or their buddies' ships.

Early on in my current game I got myself a cheap TM, kitted it out with four captured M3s and set up the CODEA script to run the M3s while I flew the TM, I think a Zephyrus, and I pretty much owned all combat missions. I only ever lost a couple of fighters, and that was to quite a large Xenon group.

jlehtone
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Post by jlehtone » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 22:34

SirNukes wrote:Mission difficulty is used to give enemies more engine tunings and spawn more enemies per wave.
Then you should guess the followup question:

Old hands at the bar keep repeating the tale how they ferried a Boron RIP (Really Irritating Passenger) and encountered overtuned Pirates.

Is there any chance that there are still Raiders in the Sky who would ignore speed regulations, yet have enough common sense to bail? I.e. could an Impossible Convoy face capturable and overtuned ships?

Early in the game such opportunity could make Escort missions somewhat rewarding.


Wing(s) can be left to mop up the Muggles.
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SirNukes
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Post by SirNukes » Wed, 12. Sep 18, 23:55

jlehtone wrote:Is there any chance that there are still Raiders in the Sky who would ignore speed regulations, yet have enough common sense to bail? I.e. could an Impossible Convoy face capturable and overtuned ships?
Here's a quick copy/paste:

Code: Select all

<add_equipment object="{param@Cue}.Temp Ship">
  <ware typename="SS_WARE_TECH213" min="( ({object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.maxcount@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}-{object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.count@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}) * (1+{param@Difficulty}) ) /12" max="{object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.maxcount@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}-{object.equipment.SS_WARE_TECH213.count@{param@Cue}.Temp Ship}"/>
</add_equipment>
So, assuming 'impossible' has a value of 6, then this shouldn't be able to over-tune ships for convoy missions.

Some other mission types can use different tuning logic. I seem to recall the Follow Ship missions making ovetuned ships, but checking the code doesn't back that up. Perhaps some of the overtunings were patched out at some point.

Anyway, if you do find an overtuned ship and go to capture it, the KC DowngradeTakeOver() function runs upon pilot ejection to strip a lot of the ship's gear. For various wares (other than lasers/shields/missiles), the ship will keep a double randomized amount of a ware, (random(random(ware_count +1) +1)), around 25% on average. For a slightly overtuned ship, there is only a small chance that it would keep enough tunings to stay overtuned after capture.

vr01
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Post by vr01 » Sun, 23. Sep 18, 06:37

I did something similar in my TC game many years ago that it turn was prompted by a post at the time. (Important to note this was TC as it shaped some of the decisions that may be less of an issue with AP.)

Unfortunately I don't have access to my gaming PC at the moment so I can't confirm the actual composition.


Colossus with a full complement of 60 ships split into 6 groups of 10.

Attack groups:
3 groups of heavy fighters armed with HEPT's, long range missiles and max shields (either Eclipse or Falcon with 200MJ shields). Missile % was very high.

Each group consisted of the flight leader and remaining 9 set to "Attack target of..." the flight leader.

Protection groups:
3 groups of faster fighters armed with PRG's(?) and medium range missiles. Not sure what ship I used but it also had decent shielding. Missile % was probably 50%.

Each ship in the group was individually set to "Defend ???" the corresponding ship in the attack group.

Missile range and % was important so that the ships didn't wait until they were too close to fire their missiles and have them blow up in their faces. I also took the time to set the formation for each ship to reduce the risk of running into or firing on each other. Missile resupply was set for each ship and the carrier (for when it berthed at home port which was the PHQ).


End result?
Although a pain in the backside to setup, the outcome was I could effectively control 60 ships by issuing commands to the 3 attack group flight leaders and not have to worry about defending the ships in the attack group as the protection groups took care of it. On one occasion I just made attack groups 2 and 3 attack the target of 1. Controlling 60 ships based on the command of 1...

The couple of times I tried to use them they were very effective and I'm pretty sure I didn't lose a ship. The capital ships didn't know which way to fire when they were overwhelmed by that many targets. Chewed through lots of missiles but I think that helped make the exercise successful.

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Post by Alan Phipps » Sun, 23. Sep 18, 11:54

@ vr01: Yes that's a very similar approach to that of my TC days: here and here and onwards. I never did really get into formal wings rather than groups.
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vr01
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Post by vr01 » Wed, 26. Sep 18, 23:21

Now that I'm back home I've been able to fire up the gaming PC and have a look at the ship configuration.

Attack groups were Eclipse with 200MJ shields.
Protection groups were Nova Raiders.

The other important reason for these ships which I had forgotten about is that they are armed with EBG's. Both ships have a split loadout of EBG and PRG in the front guns with PAC or PRG in the rear turret for missile defence. As this was all being used IS, arming with EBG meant that these ships never ran out of laser energy for the PRG's when on attack runs. Maximising damage without running out of energy at a critical point.

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Black_hole_suN
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by Black_hole_suN » Sat, 29. Sep 18, 01:11

You should try using the "Launch fighters attack" command to launch your ships. This command makes launching fighters faster than any other alternative methods.

I find carriers that launch fighters on one side (i.e Woden) works better than carriers that launch fighters in different directions (i.e Odin) because fighters dont need to maneuver much to get into its formation.

Speaking of formations, use X or Dragon because they keep the fighters closer together. I find wings in these formation more effective at the initial strike than wings in Delta or Line formation.

I always use Nova Raiders as my main carrier fighter because its fast, cheap, and easily equipped with essential softwares.
- EBC front guns
- PAC back turret
- Silkworm Missile

Lastly, use Bounce. Its a mod but if you want to master fleet combat in a vanilla-ish game this mod is just the best.

Triaxx2
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by Triaxx2 » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 18:24

I find that wings and carriers don't work so well. But then I also don't use the normal wing command method. I have one 'Wing Leader' which is in a wing group. Then the rest of the 'wing' is ordered to protect that leader or attack their target. Makes controlling them much, much easier.
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jlehtone
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 20:39

Black_hole_suN wrote:
Sat, 29. Sep 18, 01:11
You should try using the "Launch fighters attack" command to launch your ships. This command makes launching fighters faster than any other alternative methods.
And probably erases the manually crafted "groups" that the others have described.
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Black_hole_suN
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by Black_hole_suN » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 22:40

Triaxx2 wrote:
Tue, 2. Oct 18, 18:24
I find that wings and carriers don't work so well. But then I also don't use the normal wing command method. I have one 'Wing Leader' which is in a wing group. Then the rest of the 'wing' is ordered to protect that leader or attack their target. Makes controlling them much, much easier.
This probably depends on your play style and how you use your ships. I tried doing the "Wing Leaders + followers" method like you have but I found more downsides on this method. If the Wing Leader dies (and they are almost always the first one to die) suddenly you have a chunk of your army that you cant control easily. Then, you have a some fighters not participating in the initial attack because they are running a Protect command. And, docking / retreating is an issue because the followers cant dock unless the Wing Leader docks first. They then spend their time zooming around your ship potentially colliding with it. Retreating by jumping away is also slow because follower ships cant jump until the leader jumps. Lastly, setting up takes a long time.
jlehtone wrote:
Tue, 2. Oct 18, 20:39
And probably erases the manually crafted "groups" that the others have described.
jlehtone highlights another weakness of this method. you are literally one wrong command from ruining your entire set up.

Wing Leader + Follower might work better than Wings if you have a fewer ships to control.

To Timsup2nothin

Have you tried using Personal Wingmen Hotkeys? I use "Wingmen: Attack Target" hotkey to order my ships to attack specific targets then use "Wingmen: Protect me" hotkey to call them back so they wont stray away chasing enemies. This is similar on how i use my Wings, use "Attack" to attack ships and "Protect me" to call them back. Wingmen Hotkeys give me some level of control that could be found when using Wings while being able to easily order the ships individually if needed. The downside is you can only control one group with this method

jlehtone
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by jlehtone » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 23:23

Black_hole_suN wrote:
Tue, 2. Oct 18, 22:40
If the Wing Leader dies (and they are almost always the first one to die) suddenly you have a chunk of your army that you cant control easily.
In X3R, when the leader of formation did die, one (random?) escort did inherit the leadership. Former leader's command was started on it (IIRC), and the other members of the formation had their "my leader" updated.

For example, if you had:

Code: Select all

A: some command
B: protect A
C: protect A
D: attack target of A
E: attack target of A
A dies, C is promoted =>

Code: Select all

C: some command
B: protect C
D: attack target of C
E: attack target of C
Is that still true for X3TC/AP? I don't know.

If A was member of the Shadow Council Wing, will C get membership? I don't think so.

If the Group leaders are members of some Wing, and leadership inheritance exists, but does not include Wing membership, then death of a leader leaves a degraded Group and it is inconvenient (in the heat of a battle) to find the new leader and add it to Wing. (Gosh, this should be relatively easy to test, unless one of the Group users already knows ...)
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Alan Phipps
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Re: Adventures in wing command

Post by Alan Phipps » Tue, 2. Oct 18, 23:48

Group responses tried and tested in action. In X3TC/AP if the group leader dies, one of the surviving escorts is automatically promoted to group leader with the previous leader's orders and the others transfer their current affiliated orders to that new leader. So all works well. You do have to quickly check from (one of) their orders which one is now leading the group as the given ship role/name may no longer apply.

One of the reasons that I did not like wings so much was that the appointed wing leadership kept changing to different wing members as you launched or after a game reload. I like my groups to have the slowest tankiest ship as the leader with faster escorts that quickly get into and keep formation. With a wing of mixed ship speeds (easily seen through hull damage even if with all the same ship type) you could suddenly find the fastest ship in the lead with the wing never quite managing to close up and ending up strung out in a line and attacking one by one. Not always, but sometimes.
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